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If Jesus Died...

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

2 Kings 2

King James Version

2 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.


Jehovah Witness sect rewritten Bible:

"When Jehovah was about to take E·liʹjah up to the heavens * in a windstorm, E·liʹjah and E·liʹshac went out from Gilʹgal.

* = sky in the corrupted JW Bible. :tearsofjoy::smile::sweatsmile:
Ah, sometimes I work on translations to figure how things come about. Strong's Concordance has an interesting report on the Hebrew here. Notice please the following: (Strong's)
Strong's Concordance
shamayim: heaven, sky​
Original Word: שָׁמַיִם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shamayim
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mah'-yim)
Definition: heaven, sky
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Elijiah had already translated to heaven. It reads “a writing from Elijah” which would have come from his successor Elisha.

And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

But Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD, that we may inquire of the LORD by him? And one of the king of Israel's servants answered and said, Here is Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah.
There are times that interpretations must be made based on what the Bible says in various places. John 3:13 says:
King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
LoL! I quoted the scriptures, but the JW cult programed you to twist them.

Enoch and Elijah did effectively die the instant that they were translated to heaven. 2 Kings 2 Genesis 5:23-25
The spirit birth has always been available to Gods children. John 3:10
Jesus has ALWAYS been the way! John 14:6, John 8:58
Proverbs 30:4
The Hebrew word often translated as heaven does not necessarily mean spiritual heaven. And because the Bible says no man ascended to heaven except for the one who came down from heaven, well, that helps to understand more about why Elijah could not possibly have gone to dwell in the spiritual heavens.
Without Jesus' death and resurrection, there would be no hope.

Another lexicon, Brown Driver Briggs, makes a similar recognition of the Hebrew word shamiyim used at 2 Kings regarding Elijah.
It speaks of the physical sky.
"1. a. visible heavens, sky, where stars, etc., are Judges 5:20; Genesis 15:5 (J), Deuteronomy 4:19; Genesis 1:14,15,17 (P), hence ׳כּוֺכְבֵי הַשּׁ Genesis 22:17 (JE) = 9 t. (usually as countless), ׳(כָּלֿ) צְבָא הַשּׁ Deuteronomy 4:19; Jeremiah 8:2 + ( ׳צ"

(Hope this helps.)

Because Jesus was resurrected and is king of the kingdom, there is hope for those with faith. John 3:13.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
The Hebrew word often translated as heaven does not necessarily mean spiritual heaven. And because the Bible says no man ascended to heaven except for the one who came down from heaven, well, that helps to understand more about why Elijah could not possibly have gone to dwell in the spiritual heavens.
Without Jesus' death and resurrection, there would be no hope.

Another lexicon, Brown Driver Briggs, makes a similar recognition of the Hebrew word shamiyim used at 2 Kings regarding Elijah.
It speaks of the physical sky.
"1. a. visible heavens, sky, where stars, etc., are Judges 5:20; Genesis 15:5 (J), Deuteronomy 4:19; Genesis 1:14,15,17 (P), hence ׳כּוֺכְבֵי הַשּׁ Genesis 22:17 (JE) = 9 t. (usually as countless), ׳(כָּלֿ) צְבָא הַשּׁ Deuteronomy 4:19; Jeremiah 8:2 + ( ׳צ"

(Hope this helps.)

Because Jesus was resurrected and is king of the kingdom, there is hope for those with faith. John 3:13.
No help was needed. Since Enoch and Elijah went up to heaven, Jesus was referring to his authority to teach rather than oddly telling Nicodemus that no one had ever gone to heaven.

Following the reasoning of those who expend so much effort keeping Enoch and Elijah out of heaven we end up with them dead but floating in the sky somewhere between heaven and earth.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, I was addressing the comments. If he went to heaven then what is a tomb for. is it possible that he was unconscious, awoke and walked out after 3 days, thirsty and hungry...yes! Then hid in the shadows, spoke to a few and then left town.... yes.
Of course they buried his body in a tomb. Did you read the passages about what happened after he was killed? Matthew chapters 27 & 28 explain it quite clearly. They're not too long so I hope you take the time to read them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No help was needed. Since Enoch and Elijah went up to heaven, Jesus was referring to his authority to teach rather than oddly telling Nicodemus that no one had ever gone to heaven.

Following the reasoning of those who expend so much effort keeping Enoch and Elijah out of heaven we end up with them dead but floating in the sky somewhere between heaven and earth.
Let's do it again, but we can stop soon if we can't agree on basics. The Hebrew word shamayim can be translated as heaven and/or sky.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No help was needed. Since Enoch and Elijah went up to heaven, Jesus was referring to his authority to teach rather than oddly telling Nicodemus that no one had ever gone to heaven.

Following the reasoning of those who expend so much effort keeping Enoch and Elijah out of heaven we end up with them dead but floating in the sky somewhere between heaven and earth.
No one went to live in heaven prior to Jesus' resurrection.

John 3:13. King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

New King James Version
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

New American Standard Bible
No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

NASB 1995
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Let's do it again, but we can stop soon if we can't agree on basics. The Hebrew word shamayim can be translated as heaven and/or sky.
There is no place in the "sky" where God puts people for special assignments etc. Heaven meant heaven.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
No one went to live in heaven prior to Jesus' resurrection.

John 3:13. King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

New King James Version
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

New American Standard Bible
No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

NASB 1995
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus wasn't about heaven going, it was about the spiritual rebirth which is a prerequisite for joining the spiritual Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom being a present tense fellowship of believers that Jesus established 2000 years ago. The King is God in the heart of the believer. Enoch, Elijiah and many others had already gone on to their reward.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
So, for some unknown reason, God required Jesus to be humiliated and feel horrible pain. Was this to get Jesus to understand what humans went through?
I wouldn’t be surprised if he was punished for his ego. He went around bragging about his awesomeness and how much of an epic dude he was, but then he saw the cops didn’t see it that way and realized that the gig was “finished.”
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There is no place in the "sky" where God puts people for special assignments etc. Heaven meant heaven.
Planes can transport people in the sky. God is stronger than planes. Astronauts flew through the physical heavens. God is stronger than a rocket. Elijah didn't stay in mid-air. But anyway -- you take care, have a nice day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus wasn't about heaven going, it was about the spiritual rebirth which is a prerequisite for joining the spiritual Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom being a present tense fellowship of believers that Jesus established 2000 years ago. The King is God in the heart of the believer. Enoch, Elijiah and many others had already gone on to their reward.
There are new heaven(s) AND a new earth, remember?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Matthew 11:13-15
"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Matthew 14:10-12
"So John was beheaded in the prison,and his head was brought on a tray and given to the girl, who took it to her mother.Later, John’s disciples came for his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus what had happened."

Matthew 17:10-13
"And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist."

Matthew 21:32
"For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him."

John is Elijah as explained in Matthew 11:13-15
John was beheaded and died as explained in Matthew 14:10-12

Hebrew 11:5
"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

but , there is further explenation for all the previous prophets.

Henrews 11:13
"All these people were still living by faith when they died.They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth."

Acts 26:23
"that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles."

Elijah and Enoch are taken , so that means that they are not more in this world , so they are dead as explained in

1 Corinthians 15:36
"But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies."

Elijah and Enoch are dead,they died!
What rule are you applying here?
Does that rule also apply to this verse - Ezekiel 34:22-24?
Does David come back from the dead, and lead God's people, or is David used figuratively, to represent someone else? Hosea 3:5

I didn't say that they died in heaven, their bodies would have been destroyed instantaneously before going to heaven. It was believed that Elijiah would return from heaven before the Messiah. Some people even thought Jesus was Elijiah!
Okay, Colt. I just have one last question, that I would like you to answer, and that's the end of the road, for me.
What does Hebrews 6:19, 20, Hebrews 9:8, 24 and Hebrews 10:19, 20 mean to you?
 
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Colt

Well-Known Member
Planes can transport people in the sky. God is stronger than planes. Astronauts flew through the physical heavens. God is stronger than a rocket. Elijah didn't stay in mid-air. But anyway -- you take care, have a nice day.
You are really reaching with that one! Human transport flights isn't the same as putting Enoch or Elijiah somewhere in the sky!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You are really reaching with that one! Human transport flights isn't the same as putting Enoch or Elijiah somewhere in the sky!
Nope, I'm not. Planes weren't around then. Neither were printing presses. Hey, have a good one. Take care.
Just as a reminder -- Again, there are new heavens AND a new earth, where -- righteousness is to dwell. So take care again.
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone."
 
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