If Jesus Died...

[Colt]

Not sure what you are trying to say.


Yes, and so do the birds.

Was Enoch also a spiderman bird thing?

Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

 

[Colt]

In response, Colt, many of us know if we're very sick or have a terrible accident that we may expect death. Healthy people know they will possibly die in the future but in general they are not thinking it will happen soon. In Elijah's and Enoch's case they did not lock k death in the eye, so to speak. They were taken in death...gone...no forewarning... merciful provision from God.

I see, people who experience sudden, unforeseen death go up in chariots of fire? How often do we see that??? In the case of Enoch the Bible says that he didn't experience death at all?

 

[nPeace]

Was Enoch also a spiderman bird thing?

Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

You are the one with a view the scriptures contradict.
If you want to ignore it, that's up to you.
No need to go in circles.

 

[Dimi95]

@Apostle95 it's good to ask questions.
It's important to know whom to ask. That's not as difficult as it may seem.
Jehovah's Witnesses are always in the neighborhood, knocking doors, or standing on the streets, with their literature, and the sword close at hand.

Many people have come to learn one fact about them. "If you ask them a question, they will grab their sword and use it. You can be sure they will answer your questions, using the Bible."
True, some people are skeptical of them. Some scared as well. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and people listen to it.

I am certainly not scared when i talk about God.

I don't belive that fear has something to do with God in any sence.Fear is the excuse we use not to act on the Word of God.
Love on the other hand,

1 Corinthians 13:4-13
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part,but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

To answer your question...
If you use the scriptures I referenced...
(Acts 17:26-29) 26 And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, 27 so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. 28 For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’ 29 “Therefore, since we are the children of God,. . .

(Luke 3:23-38) 23 When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heʹli, 24 son of Matʹthat, son of Leʹvi, son of Melʹchi, son of Janʹna·i, son of Joseph, ... 38 son of Eʹnosh, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.

(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

(1 Corinthians 15:45) 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

You should get this;.
First man - Adam; Sold his children - all mankind - into sin and death, and separation from God... the heavenly father.
Second man - Jesus Christ - redeemed mankind, from sin and death, and bought them back into a relationship with God... the heavenly father...
Jesus took the place of our forefather Adam.

Not only that, but Jesus gives life, literally.
(John 5:21) . . .For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.
(1 Corinthians 15:45) So it is written: The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(John 5:26) For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

Jesus became lifegiver - Father.
Not that Jesus replaces God, since, when he accomplishes all things, Jesus then hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, then the subjects himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

Would you say those scriptures made a good connection, in addressing the question?

It's not a simple question , it goes deep and deep , but thank you for your time.

 

[Colt]

You are the one with a view the scriptures contradict.
If you want to ignore it, that's up to you.
No need to go in circles.

You are being dishonest. Long before the New Testament existed the Israelites were well versed in the story of Enoch and Elijah being taken up to heaven. It’s you who bought into a doctrine that needs to spin a story attempting to keep the 2 hidden away on earth on special assignment.

 

[paarsurrey]

You are being dishonest. Long before the New Testament existed the Israelites were well versed in the story of Enoch and Elijah being taken up to heaven. It’s you who bought into a doctrine that needs to spin a story attempting to keep the 2 hidden away on earth on special assignment.

79.Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?
(a) No (John 3:13)
(b) Yes. “And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11)

https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/YaBBAttachments/101_Contradictions_In_The_Bible.pdf

Regards

 

[Watchmen]

That's not how he chose to do it. God doesn't forgive the unrepentant.

I know. What a jerk, right. If God really is supposed to be a father/parent figure, he’s pretty terrible at it.

 

[Yokefellow]

79.Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?
(a) No (John 3:13)
(b) Yes. “And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11)

https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/YaBBAttachments/101_Contradictions_In_The_Bible.pdf

Regards

Ascension by One's own power is not the same as being taken up by another (i.e., separate) power.

 

[Yokefellow]

1 John 2:2

For all of Man's sins, aren't we all then redeemed?
The payment made in full. Nothing else is being asked of us.

To say God asks anything else from us, isn't this denying the payment Jesus already made?

I have not read the responses, but Universalists believe that everyone makes it to the New Heavens and New Earth.

I believe the same with one exception. I believe Universal Salvation is done via Reincarnation...

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, that doesn’t make sense.

Hi. I am going to quote the interchange between the devil and Jesus at Matthew 4:8-10 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
Let me know what you think, please. Jesus did not tell Satan, look, you don't own all the kingdoms of the world, so you can't give them to me anyway.

 

[YoursTrue]

I see, people who experience sudden, unforeseen death go up in chariots of fire? How often do we see that??? In the case of Enoch the Bible says that he didn't experience death at all?

Thanks for bringing it up. Enoch likely did not experience the pangs of death. This does not mean he was taken to heavenly life. It appears that, as in the case of Moses’ body, God must have disposed of Enoch’s body, for “he was nowhere to be found.”
Genesis 5:24 says in the case of Enoch, that "Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." So Enoch was no more. If I'm missing something here, please let me know, thanks.

 

[Colt]

Thanks for bringing it up. Enoch likely did not experience the pangs of death. This does not mean he was taken to heavenly life. It appears that, as in the case of Moses’ body, God must have disposed of Enoch’s body, for “he was nowhere to be found.”
Genesis 5:24 says in the case of Enoch, that "Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." So Enoch was no more. If I'm missing something here, please let me know, thanks.

Correct, the translation of one to the next life without the ordinary process of death would require the instantaneous dematerialization of the mortal body and without the sleep of death prior to a dispensational resurrection. Elijiah, Enoch and others not known went directly to the Mansion worlds.

 

[Colt]

Hi. I am going to quote the interchange between the devil and Jesus at Matthew 4:8-10 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
Let me know what you think, please. Jesus did not tell Satan, look, you don't own all the kingdoms of the world, so you can't give them to me anyway.

There are a couple of different versions of this story about what Jesus was doing during the 40 days alone. It doesn't make sense because Satan never had the power to fulfill these promises. Satan was delusional, he had gone rouge, went into rebellion against the rule of the Father.

 

[nPeace]

You are being dishonest.

Seriously?
Clearly, you are upset that the scriptures are against you, and because you insist on your own views being correct you speak words that only Satan would want someone to say to a person who is only using God's word.

Think about it. Why would you suddenly turn on someone, and say cutting, intended hurtful, words like that, to tear down a person, when you have no basis, nor do you know the person's heart. Other than it be Satan speaking through you?
You could follow Jesus' example, and say 'Get behind me Satan', so that you do not use satanic speech to a servant of God, next time.

Long before the New Testament existed the Israelites were well versed in the story of Enoch and Elijah being taken up to heaven.

The Israelites, I know of, as mentioned in the Bible, did not have any idea of a person being taken to heaven.
If you know of one single verse, otherwise, please quote it.
Or perhaps, you have other Israelites in mind.

They were familiar with death of a person.
For example, no Israelite though that Moses was taken to heaven, because God took Moses - put him to sleep, and buried him, where no one - not even Satan knows where.
(Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) 5 After that Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Moʹab just as Jehovah had said. 6 He buried him in the valley in the land of Moʹab, opposite Beth-peʹor, and nobody knows where his grave is down to this day.
Jude 9

This is what the Israelites knew. That a person dies, and is buried.
God took Enoch. He put him to sleep. We can safely conclude that God burned the body, in the same way he buried Moses' body.
In Elijah's case, God transported him, more than once.
We see from scripture, that Elijah was on earth, after being taken up in a windstorm.

It requires one to be quite unreasonable, to conclude that because he was taken up to the heavens, he went to heaven, for quite a number of reasons.

1. Did Elijah write the letter in heaven, and had it delivered by an angel?
2. Elijah wrote his letter on earth, where God transported him. Even if no one knew where he went, and thereafter, if God put him to sleep there, and buried his body, like Enoch, he did not see death at the hands of the wicked.
3. Did Elijah die? Yes. He was mortal.
4. Couldn't Elijah be in heaven with God? No.

• One must die before going to heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:36
• One must be born again in order to get to heaven. John 3:3-6 - Something that became available only after the Messiah came.
• The way to heaven was opened only after the death of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6:19, 20; Hebrews 10:19, 20
• No one could enter the Most Holy, before the High Priest - the firstfruits to God, and the firstborn son of God, from the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18
• Jesus said that no man had gone to heaven, prior to his ascension. John 3:13

So, you see, 10 to 0 the scriptures are against your view.
Rather than be mad about that, and insist on believing what you want to, regardless, might I suggest the appeal at1 Peter 5:6.
It's not a wise thing to oppose God.

It’s you who bought into a doctrine that needs to spin a story attempting to keep the 2 hidden away on earth on special assignment.

I did not say that.
God took Enoch, according to the scriptures. He lived among a really violent people who were seeking his life.
God spared him a violent end, and put him to sleep. He died a peaceful death, like going to sleep in your bed.

Elijah was transported on different assignments. We have two occasions in the Bible of this.
In the case where he wrote the letter, that was the last we heard of him, but it was obviously an important assignment, before he was no more.

We know though, from the scriptures, that neither of them are in heaven.
You have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... scriptures (I'm sure I did not mention all), totally contradicting the erroneous idea that anyone went to heave, before Michael the archangel's voice like a trumpet is heard.
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

Spoiler: Quotation

15

Spoiler: Quotation

 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

I don't think you are dishonest, but you clearly are sincerely misled.
Passionate? Yes, you most certainly are.
Concerning the Jews, Paul wrote,
(Romans 10:1-3) 1 Brothers, the goodwill of my heart and my supplication to God for them are indeed for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. 3 For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

I would say, Colt, the goodwill of my heart and my supplication to God for you, is indeed for your salvation. For the scriptures bear witness that you have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. For because of not knowing the truth of God, but seeking to establish your own, you do not subject yourself to the truthfulness of God's word.

1 Peter 5:6 is the antidote for any stubborn pride we may have.

 

[Colt]

Seriously?
Clearly, you are upset that the scriptures are against you, and because you insist on your own views being correct you speak words that only Satan would want someone to say to a person who is only using God's word.

Think about it. Why would you suddenly turn on someone, and say cutting, intended hurtful, words like that, to tear down a person, when you have no basis, nor do you know the person's heart. Other than it be Satan speaking through you?
You could follow Jesus' example, and say 'Get behind me Satan', so that you do not use satanic speech to a servant of God, next time.


The Israelites, I know of, as mentioned in the Bible, did not have any idea of a person being taken to heaven.
If you know of one single verse, otherwise, please quote it.
Or perhaps, you have other Israelites in mind.

They were familiar with death of a person.
For example, no Israelite though that Moses was taken to heaven, because God took Moses - put him to sleep, and buried him, where no one - not even Satan knows where.
(Deuteronomy 34:5, 6) 5 After that Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Moʹab just as Jehovah had said. 6 He buried him in the valley in the land of Moʹab, opposite Beth-peʹor, and nobody knows where his grave is down to this day.
Jude 9

This is what the Israelites knew. That a person dies, and is buried.
God took Enoch. He put him to sleep. We can safely conclude that God burned the body, in the same way he buried Moses' body.
In Elijah's case, God transported him, more than once.
We see from scripture, that Elijah was on earth, after being taken up in a windstorm.

It requires one to be quite unreasonable, to conclude that because he was taken up to the heavens, he went to heaven, for quite a number of reasons.

1. Did Elijah write the letter in heaven, and had it delivered by an angel?
2. Elijah wrote his letter on earth, where God transported him. Even if no one knew where he went, and thereafter, if God put him to sleep there, and buried his body, like Enoch, he did not see death at the hands of the wicked.
3. Did Elijah die? Yes. He was mortal.
4. Couldn't Elijah be in heaven with God? No.

• One must die before going to heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:36
• One must be born again in order to get to heaven. John 3:3-6 - Something that became available only after the Messiah came.
• The way to heaven was opened only after the death of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6:19, 20; Hebrews 10:19, 20
• No one could enter the Most Holy, before the High Priest - the firstfruits to God, and the firstborn son of God, from the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18
• Jesus said that no man had gone to heaven, prior to his ascension. John 3:13

So, you see, 10 to 0 the scriptures are against your view.
Rather than be mad about that, and insist on believing what you want to, regardless, might I suggest the appeal at1 Peter 5:6.
It's not a wise thing to oppose God.


I did not say that.
God took Enoch, according to the scriptures. He lived among a really violent people who were seeking his life.
God spared him a violent end, and put him to sleep. He died a peaceful death, like going to sleep in your bed.

Elijah was transported on different assignments. We have two occasions in the Bible of this.
In the case where he wrote the letter, that was the last we heard of him, but it was obviously an important assignment, before he was no more.

We know though, from the scriptures, that neither of them are in heaven.
You have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7... scriptures (I'm sure I did not mention all), totally contradicting the erroneous idea that anyone went to heave, before Michael the archangel's voice like a trumpet is heard.
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

Spoiler: Quotation

15

Spoiler: Quotation

 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

I don't think you are dishonest, but you clearly are sincerely misled.
Passionate? Yes, you most certainly are.
Concerning the Jews, Paul wrote,
(Romans 10:1-3) 1 Brothers, the goodwill of my heart and my supplication to God for them are indeed for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. 3 For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

I would say, Colt, the goodwill of my heart and my supplication to God for you, is indeed for your salvation. For the scriptures bear witness that you have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. For because of not knowing the truth of God, but seeking to establish your own, you do not subject yourself to the truthfulness of God's word.

1 Peter 5:6 is the antidote for any stubborn pride we may have.

Thats what's dishonest about you, and I'm not angry. I've dealt with dishonest and condescending posters before. I quote the original text concerning Elijiah going up to heaven but you cant accept it. So, you put soooooo much effort into discrediting the scriptures by adding your doctrine yet accusing me of what you are actually doing????

You must be a Jehovah Witness, they are notorious for rewriting the Bible to fit their unbelief. Even a child can see what the Bible clearly says about God taking Elijiah up to heaven.

2 Kings 2:1-18

New King James Version

​

Elijah Ascends to Heaven​

2 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.”


You say Elijah eventually died after the special assignments that you added? He actually reappears at the Transfiguration according to the scripture.

Matthew 17

New International Version

​

The Transfiguration​

17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

 

[nPeace]

Thats what's dishonest about you, and I'm not angry. I've dealt with dishonest and condescending posters before. I quote the original text concerning Elijiah going up to heaven but you cant accept it. So, you put soooooo much effort into discrediting the scriptures by adding your doctrine yet accusing me of what you are actually doing????

You must be a Jehovah Witness, they are notorious for rewriting the Bible to fit their unbelief. Even a child can see what the Bible clearly says about God taking Elijiah up to heaven.

Ah. I see now, the reason for the sudden emotional personal attack.

Jehovah's Witnesses are always in the neighborhood, knocking doors, or standing on the streets, with their literature, and the sword close at hand.

You must be a Jehovah Witness,

I understand. The mere mention of Jehovah's Witnesses gets under some people's skin,
However, still consider your reaction. You don't know that anyone is dishonest. It's a satanic lie to say that about people.

2 Kings 2:1-18​

New King James Version​

Elijah Ascends to Heaven​

2 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.”


You say Elijah eventually died after the special assignments that you added? He actually reappears at the Transfiguration according to the scripture.

Matthew 17​

New International Version​

The Transfiguration​

17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

You think a vision actually supports an idea contrary to scripture???
You've really disappointed me.

Even Luke revealed that Peter thought he was actually in reality.
(Luke 9:33) 33 And as these were departing from him, Peter said to Jesus: “Instructor, it is fine for us to be here. So let us erect three tents, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” He did not realize what he was saying.

You probably think John the Baptist was Elijah come down from heaven, also.
Anyway, peace. I'm out.

 

[Colt]

Ah. I see now, the reason for the sudden emotional personal attack.



I understand. The mere mention of Jehovah's Witnesses gets under some people's skin,
However, still consider your reaction. You don't know that anyone is dishonest. It's a satanic lie to say that about people.


You think a vision actually supports an idea contrary to scripture???
You've really disappointed me.

Even Luke revealed that Peter thought he was actually in reality.
(Luke 9:33) 33 And as these were departing from him, Peter said to Jesus: “Instructor, it is fine for us to be here. So let us erect three tents, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” He did not realize what he was saying.

You probably think John the Baptist was Elijah come down from heaven, also.
Anyway, peace. I'm out.

Oh, this was just a vision??????????!!!

2 Kings 2:1-18​

New King James Version​

Elijah Ascends to Heaven​

2 And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.”

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

We would not know about a particular sin until the law says, "thou shall not do X".

Then how is Cain the first murderer? Murder wasn’t a sin yet.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

For example, if one breaks the speed limit and the Police Officer that pulls you over decides to forgive your violation with a warning and nothing more happens; forgiveness of sin, we get the same end result as they're being no speeding law that day on that road.

If cops execute every single speeder, people still speed.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But man can punish you, by stealing some of your money, in the name of their law

It’s not ours. The government made it and takes it as desired.