If God were truly all-powerful...?

[Rainbow Mage]

1A- This is the argument. Abrahamics claim that their god is all-powerful, as opposed to my gods being limited. So I asked the question- if one of this all-powerful god's followers asked him to create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it, would he be able to do it? If not, he isn't all powerful. If yes, then he wouldn't be able to lift it, so he's still not all powerful.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Why would god worry about gravity?

Some words and sentences serve only to show the limits of language. Energy seems to be omnipresent, so the considerations of "god is energy," or "god is universe," are the only type to make a degree of sense in a real-world situation. A god beyond existence is of necessity a god beyond definition; such is mentioned in Job. So to think such a question proves a paradox to the god of Abraham is to, well, not really think. The only limit here is the ability of the mortal mind to rationalize.

But if a believer is to ask such a question to god, all god need do is know the mind of the believer, and perform the anticipated action. Doesn't even require omnipotence.

 

[PolyHedral]

...thereby refuting the idea that it was too heavy for him to lift.

If you abide by the rules of logic, there's no way to resolve the dilemma. And if you throw out logic, you've effectively negated the whole purpose of argument and reasoning anyhow. At that point, the answer "four hedgehogs and the colour of loud" is just as valid as the one you gave, since you've thrown away the mechanism we have to tell what's correct from what isn't.

Fine then, I'll revise my answer: four hedgehogs and the colour of loud.

The general point is that "truly omnipotent" is not a logically consistent attribute, and so cannot exist.

 

[1AOA1]

1A- This is the argument. Abrahamics claim that their god is all-powerful, as opposed to my gods being limited. So I asked the question- if one of this all-powerful god's followers asked him to create a rock so heavy he couldn't lift it, would he be able to do it? If not, he isn't all powerful. If yes, then he wouldn't be able to lift it, so he's still not all powerful.

So we ask it if it can do everything, can it do what it cannot do?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So we ask it if it can do everything, can it do what it cannot do?

If it can't do it then it's not all-powerful. Proving your god is just as limited as my gods. He isn't omnipotent.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Language is sometimes an imperfect tool for expressing meaning. The trick is to understand meaning despite language.

 

[1AOA1]

If it can't do it then it's not all-powerful. Proving your god is just as limited as my gods. He isn't omnipotent.

Did I presume that God can't do it, or the question?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Did I presume that God can't do it, or the question?

Well can god do it or not? It's a simple answer. Yes, god can. No, god cannot, and here's why...

 

[Willamena]

If you abide by the rules of logic, there's no way to resolve the dilemma.

Oh contrare, my dear Penguin. Those are the very rules the question doesn't abide; so, in the end, it is logic that saves us from the dilemma.

The question "if God does (insert something impossible)..." defies logic itself, because the impossible, if it can be done, is possible, so creates a contradiction.

 

[1AOA1]

Well can god do it or not? It's a simple answer. Yes, god can. No, god cannot, and here's why...

Weren't you the one who said it couldn't do it? You didn't say a really really heavy rock but a rock it cannot lift. So...shouldnt you be the one telling me why an all powerful being cannot lift it? Or are you asking can it create something which exceeds it's power? But if it is all powerful and the creation exceeds it's power, wouldn't it also exceed the 'all' in 'all powerful'? Outside of 'all' is nothing correct? So... it creates rocks it cannot lift by never doing it, nowhere in nothing as a non-being. is that ok?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Weren't you the one who said it couldn't do it? You didn't say a really really heavy rock but a rock it cannot lift. So...shouldnt you be the one telling me why an all powerful being cannot lift it? Or are you asking can it create something which exceeds it's power? But if it is all powerful and the creation exceeds it's power, wouldn't it also exceed the 'all' in 'all powerful'? Outside of 'all' is nothing correct? So... it creates rocks it cannot lift by never doing it, nowhere in nothing as a non-being. is that ok?

No because the claim is that god is "all-powerful" and you want to talk about "non-being", most Christians claim to believe this deity created all creation out of non-being, so if a whole universe, a rock shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[1AOA1]

No because the claim is that god is "all-powerful" and you want to talk about "non-being", most Christians claim to believe this deity created all creation out of non-being, so if a whole universe, a rock shouldn't be too difficult.

So the rock is part of the all in all powerful? Why does the question assume that it cannot do it? Creation out of nothing does consist of the all, just a different kind of all right? So the only way all powerful can create something which exceeds all is outside of all in nothing where it never is by doing what it never does by not doing it?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

So the rock is part of the all in all powerful? Why does the question assume that it cannot do it? Creation out of nothing does consist of the all, just a different kind of all right? So the only way all powerful can create something which exceeds all is outside of all in nothing where it never is by doing what it never does by not doing it?

When you claim all-power, nothing should be impossible, not even making itself weaker then something else. After all, Christians claim God became a man and lowered himself to do this, subjecting himself to the will of his enemies. If not this, God can create a rock and then lower himself below it, so that the rock is too heavy to lift.

 

[1AOA1]

When you claim all-power, nothing should be impossible, not even making itself weaker then something else. After all, Christians claim God became a man and lowered himself to do this, subjecting himself to the will of his enemies. If not this, God can create a rock and then lower himself below it, so that the rock is too heavy to lift.

Was the question asking for it to make itself weaker? Or expose it's weakness already there?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Was the question asking for it to make itself weaker? Or expose it's weakness already there?

You know you have a way of dodging questions, rather then answering them. I asked the question- can god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift? Answer the question, or I'll place you on ignore.

 

[Numinous]

To me it is a matter of recognizing God can do that which is possible and if something is not possible, that is logically possible, it is no slight on any god that can not perform that which is not possible. The OP presents what we call, non-sense, asking anyone to do anything that is not logically possible is reduced to non-sense. Not being able to do the impossible does not mean one is not all powerful, it merely means one can not do that which has no sense.

 

[McBell]

To me it is a matter of recognizing God can do that which is possible and if something is not possible, that is logically possible, it is no slight on any god that can not perform that which is not possible. The OP presents what we call, non-sense, asking anyone to do anything that is not logically possible is reduced to non-sense. Not being able to do the impossible does not mean one is not all powerful, it merely means one can not do that which has no sense.

I agree that it is no slight on god.
It is a slight on those who claim that god is all powerful and further that claim with statements like "there is nothing that god cannot do".

Problem as I see it is not god, but those who make claims about god.

 

[Dan4reason]

I know this is an old and kind of silly paradox, but really think about it. It's a good question. If your god truly were all-powerful, could he create a rock he cannot lift? If not, he is not all powerful, and if he cannot lift it he is also not all-powerful.

That seems like a good argument but I will analyse it in this post to make sure that the statement is not an accidental play on words. First I want to generalize the statement.

Can God make a rock he can't lift?

Notice that assuming that God is all powerful, there is no such rock, it doesn't and cannot exist. It is like saying that 2 + 2 = 5. So I will now rephrase the question.

Can God make something that is impossible?

Making something which is impossible is itself impossible and a logical contradiction. The question can further be rephrased.

Can an omnipotent God do something impossible?

This whole statement is a contradiction because an omnipotent being can do anything and so should even be able to do the impossible. Yet the impossible is something that cannot ever be done even by an omnipotent being. So we either have to say that an omnipotent being doesn't exist or nothing is impossible.

However, the rock analogy is a perfect example of the impossible and there are many more. Can you make something a dog and not a dog at the same time? Can you make a perfect world that has evil? There and many more things are impossible and we are forced to the conclusion that some things can never be done.

The conclusion to this is that an omnipotent being, a being who can do anything cannot exist. The best a being can do is be able to do anything which can be done. However, that is not omnipotence.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This problem is better understood when stated "would the limitations of language limit an omnipotent being." This problem has nothing to do with either god or omnipotence, but rather the vagaries of language.

 

[Dan4reason]

This problem is better understood when stated "would the limitations of language limit an omnipotent being." This problem has nothing to do with either god or omnipotence, but rather the vagaries of language.

This problem has nothing to do with language. It has to do with whether God can do the impossible.