If God existed would there be proof?

[muhammad_isa]

So how much more absurd it is to claim, that a deity with literally limitless power and knowledge is not at all culpable for any of the results of what it created?

What do you mean by that?
If I was to explode a bomb in the middle of London, would I be "culpable" or would it be reasonable that we should blame G-d because He is the one who is "really" responsible?

NB lets not even talk about a hypothetical millions of years ago, as there is enough suffering in the here and now

 

[firedragon]

You completely ignored what I said. Go back and read it again, then you might understand.


Actually my answer is not 'no', it's 'not necessarily'. See how I first answered the OP: #47.

Anyway, as you've still made no attempt to justify your original assertions, I assume you've just given up.

Given what up?

I say that anything that exists has proof for its existence. Lol. And you keep saying "No". How in the world can one engage or give on that? There is nothing in it.

Keep going.

 

[ratiocinator]

I say that anything that exists has proof for its existence.

Which is an utterly absurd and illogical claim. How can I engage logically with somebody who thinks something so utterly absurd somehow should just be accepted?

Forget god, it obviously isn't true even in science. For example, beyond the edge of the observable universe, there may well be galaxies, stars, and planets but if I made some claim about a particular planet existing at that distance, then there couldn't possibly be any evidence (let alone proof) either that it did exist or it didn't. Even if I made the claim about something within the observable universe, say a modest 5 billion light years away, there still couldn't be any evidence because, even if we could make the observation in that much detail, it would be 5 billion years out of date.

 

[firedragon]

Forget god, it obviously isn't true even in science.

But the topic is "God". If you read the OP you will know clearly.

 

[ratiocinator]

But the topic is "God".

Evasion noted.

If your claim obviously isn't even true about physical things within the realm of what is known to exist, then why would we expect it to be true of an entirely speculative realm?

If you read the OP you will know clearly.

ROTFLMAO!

 

[firedragon]

Evasion noted.

If your claim obviously isn't even true about physical things within the realm of what is known to exist, then why would we expect it to be true of an entirely speculative realm?


ROTFLMAO!

So you say its "Entirely Speculative Realm" right? Why?

 

[CG Didymus]

So He gives us enough evidence to believe He exists and people reject it and say it is no good and they want more and better evidence.

All the religions say they have "evidence", yet all believe something different. And now add Baha'is to the list that claim to have evidence that their prophet is from God and God is real. Then each religion gives "evidence" why the other religions are wrong.

 

[ratiocinator]

So you say its "Entirely Speculative Realm" right? Why?

No evidence. And I'm seriously bored of your continued attempts to distract from your own total failure to justify your own claims. Either justify them (even in some reduced sense that only applies outside of their obvious falsify with respect to the physical world) or not. I'm not going off on another tangent until you do.

 

[CG Didymus]

Tut.
Do you know anybody who is totally honest, even with themselves?
..because I don't.
Making it about us v them is rather petty, I would have thought.

Muslims "know" that what they believe is the truth. Christians "know" what they believe is the truth. Baha'is "know" what they believe is the truth. Are they being honest with themselves? Do they really "know"? And since they all believe something different, someone's wrong and being fooled into thinking what they believe is true. Or maybe none of them "know" for sure, but they tell themselves that "yes" they know for sure.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No evidence..

If that was true, then theists are all totally mad.
Why should they believe something that is so obviously flawed?
What you really mean. is that you won't accept any evidence .. unless G-d strikes you down, or something.

I wouldn't tempt fate, if I were you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Muslims "know" that what they believe is the truth. Christians "know" what they believe is the truth. Baha'is "know" what they believe is the truth. Are they being honest with themselves? Do they really "know"? And since they all believe something different, someone's wrong and being fooled into thinking what they believe is true. Or maybe none of them "know" for sure, but they tell themselves that "yes" they know for sure.

That all sounds about right.
However, what they have got right, is that they all believe that G-d exists, and that He is the Creator of the universe.

All believers are rewarded for their faith. It is up to us to seek knowledge and consider everything carefully, and make the necessary sacrifices in life, as both Jesus and Muhammad taught us to do.

G-d knows best why we differ, and He is aware of what we proclaim and what we hide.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Muslims "know" that what they believe is the truth. Christians "know" what they believe is the truth. Baha'is "know" what they believe is the truth. Are they being honest with themselves? Do they really "know"? And since they all believe something different, someone's wrong and being fooled into thinking what they believe is true. Or maybe none of them "know" for sure, but they tell themselves that "yes" they know for sure.

If a person (no matter what religion they follow) say "I KNOW MY BELIEF IS CORRECT " then they are in for a surprise
If a person is so sure they can say "i know" in religious practice, they do not understand the teaching, but follow their ego...

 

[ratiocinator]

If that was true, then theists are all totally mad.

Or simply mistaken, for example using the well known cognitive bias of agent detection. Do you think everybody who believes in different god or gods to you are all mad?

Humanity has made up literally thousands of gods though history (not to mention other unseen, mystical beeings. Even today, whichever god(s) you believe in, most people think you are wrong. At the very least, most theists must be wrong.

What you really mean. is that you won't accept any evidence ..

What do you think is evidence? As I've said, I've never seen anything remotely like objective evidence for any god(s) to accept or reject. Nothing at all but subjective experiences, unsupported anecdotes, or obviously flawed attempts at logic.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Or simply mistaken, for example using the well known cognitive bias of agent detection. Do you think everybody who believes in different god or gods to you are all mad?

Humanity has made up literally thousands of gods though history (not to mention other unseen, mystical beeings. Even today, whichever god(s) you believe in, most people think you are wrong. At the very least, most theists must be wrong.


What do you think is evidence? As I've said, I've never seen anything remotely like objective evidence for any god(s) to accept or reject. Nothing at all but subjective experiences, unsupported anecdotes, or obviously flawed attempts at logic.

Can i ask you something?

In sufism there is this "As Sufism is not a religion or philosophy, it cannot be explained theoretically but
can only be understood. "

Could it mean that there isn't any "proof or evidence" that can be given for others to "see God" but it can only be understood by each individual person according to their ability to understand what God is?

 

[Trailblazer]

You said "it wouldn't work in the present setup," by which you meant "as God set it up." That's a barrier.

Barrier to what? I never said that the present set-up presents a barrier for God to get what He wants done.

muhammad_isa said: ↑Any suggestions?
Perhaps you think that creatures shouldn't die? Would that work?

Trailblazer said: It wouldn't work with the present setup, but God could have set it up differently since God is omnipotent and omniscient.
#164 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 4:13 PM

Evangelicalhumanist said: ↑Really, one would presume that with omnipotence and omniscience, "present setup" would not present any particular barrier for God to get what he wants done.

Trailblazer said: I did not say that it presented a barrier.
#193 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 8:09 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The "present setup" does not present any particular barrier for God to get what He wants done.

What would not work in the present set-up is creatures not dying. As I said, God could have set it up differently since God is omnipotent and omniscient, so God could have created creatures that would not die.

 

[blü 2]

What you really mean is that G-d is not a physical being.

Yes, gods and other supernatural entities are only known to exist as concepts or things imagined in the brains of individuals. That's why they're so various. If they were real, everyone could agree on their description.

 

[Sheldon]

No, beliefs about deities cannot be disproved.
That is why I asked: How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?

Which deity?

For purposed of the OP it does not matter which deity.

I was directly addressing your question, "How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?" So again, which deity?

 

[EtuMalku]

I was directly addressing your question, "How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?" So again, which deity?

Does it matter which deity? Deities cannot be proven NOT to exist, they can only be proven TO exist.

 

[Sheldon]

Kfox said: ↑
What good is faith when you have evidence?

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Neither is a hammer and a slug, but you would have to be pretty stupid to imagine a slug is more efficacious at installing a nail than a hammer. So as Kfox says, what use a faith when you have evidence, the answer of course is obvious.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I was directly addressing your question, "How could anyone ever prove that God does not exist?" So again, which deity?

Does it matter which deity? Deities cannot be proven NOT to exist, they can only be proven TO exist.

Whether a deity can be proven not to exist, depends on whether the deity is falsifiable in the first place, and some concepts of deities are falsifiable. I'd have to know which deity is being presented as such, and see it accurately defined, before I'd accept the notion it can't be proven not to exist.