If God existed would there be proof?

[Trailblazer]

My premise is that if God existed God would have to provide the proof because there is no way we could ever get to where God exists and get the proof ourselves.

If God existed would there be proof?

I am not asking if there could be proof or if there should be proof, I am asking if there would be proof.

• If God existed would God provide proof of His existence?
• Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
• In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?

Thanks, Trailblazer

 

[Left Coast]

My premise is that if God existed God would have to provide the proof because there is no way we could ever get to where God exists and get the proof ourselves.

If God existed would there be proof?

I am not asking if there could be proof or if there should be proof, I am asking if there would be proof.

• If God existed would God provide proof of His existence?
• Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
• In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?

Thanks, Trailblazer

Are you intending to ask about proof or evidence?

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you intending to ask about proof or evidence?

Good question. I meant proof, not evidence.

 

[mangalavara]

If God existed would there be proof?

From my particular Hindu perspective, God exists, but there isn't necessarily proof of God's existence, especially the sort that would make the world into believers. What the individual will soon or later get is the personal, inner realization of God. It is unlike anything else.

 

[sun rise]

God to me does provide proof but not in a simple way that's obvious to all. And to me there are reasons for that.

How would the world change if such proof were obvious to all? What form would that proof take where people would accept it? How would you know that it was God and not a mental illness?

 

[Sheldon]

Good question. I meant proof, not evidence.

Since you don't mean evidence, and proof is defined as evidence establishing a fact or the truth of a statement. One assumes you mean logical or mathematical proof?

 

[Audie]

From my particular Hindu perspective, God exists, but there isn't necessarily proof of God's existence, especially the sort that would make the world into believers. What the individual will soon or later get is the personal, inner realization of God. It is unlike anything else.

Believers but no faith

 

[Audie]

God to me does provide proof but not in a simple way that's obvious to all. And to me there are reasons for that.

How would the world change if such proof were obvious to all? What form would that proof take where people would accept it? How would you know that it was God and not a mental illness?

Leave that to God. He would know what would work.

 

[mangalavara]

Believers but no faith

Yeah. Kind of like, 'I believe the planet is spherical.' We have proof for what we believe about the shape of the planet, but no faith that it is so.

 

[Nimos]

My premise is that if God existed God would have to provide the proof because there is no way we could ever get to where God exists and get the proof ourselves.

If God existed would there be proof?

I am not asking if there could be proof or if there should be proof, I am asking if there would be proof.

• If God existed would God provide proof of His existence?
• Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
• In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?

Thanks, Trailblazer

It depends on the type of God we are talking about.

If its a non intervening God, meaning simply a creator God, I don't see how there would be any proofs. Such being would be impossible for us to witness. In fact there could be such being right now, that has nothing to do with any of the known Gods that we know of. But such being is irrelevant to us anyway, so it wouldn't make any difference.

If God is an intervening one, I think we would be able to notice it or at least there would be a chance of it. Obviously it depends in which way such being is intervening. Which could range from very visible to almost being as invisible and irrelevant as a non intervening God is.

Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
No, it wouldn't mean that. But again it could be argued whether there is any point in behaving in such ways as if one existed. Because nothing would be know about such God.

In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?
Same as above, a God could exist, but again would be irrelevant.

 

[sun rise]

Leave that to God. He would know what would work.

I was asking what was wanted by someone else specifically.

I don't have doubt that there is divinity, that everything has a divine purpose and that there have been and are those on Earth who embody that divinity. I also know that what I consider proof is nonsense and no proof at all to others.

 

[Audie]

Yeah. Kind of like, 'I believe the planet is spherical.' We have proof for what we believe about the shape of the planet, but no faith that it is so.

Certainly not Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

God to me does provide proof but not in a simple way that's obvious to all. And to me there are reasons for that.

I agree, because I believe I have proof, but my proof is not proof to everyone else.

How would the world change if such proof were obvious to all? What form would that proof take where people would accept it? How would you know that it was God and not a mental illness?

I cannot even imagine what it would be like if everyone not just believed but knew that God existed, although I believe it will be that way in the future since that is what the Bible and the Baha'i Writings say. I do not know how that will come to pass and it is in the distant future... How distant I do not know, only God knows the future.

That's is a good point. If God provided proof how would anyone know it was God providing it, whatever that proof was?

 

[Trailblazer]

Since you don't mean evidence, and proof is defined as evidence establishing a fact or the truth of a statement. One assumes you mean logical or mathematical proof?

I mean proof according to the following definition. God would be established as a fact that everyone would know and agree upon:

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

 

[Trailblazer]

Leave that to God. He would know what would work.

That's true.

 

[Trailblazer]

It depends on the type of God we are talking about.

If its a non intervening God, meaning simply a creator God, I don't see how there would be any proofs. Such being would be impossible for us to witness. In fact there could be such being right now, that has nothing to do with any of the known Gods that we know of. But such being is irrelevant to us anyway, so it wouldn't make any difference.

If God is an intervening one, I think we would be able to notice it or at least there would be a chance of it. Obviously it depends in which way such being is intervening. Which could range from very visible to almost being as invisible and irrelevant as a non intervening God is.

I can always count on you to think things through.

I really like that you distinguished between the intervening God and the non-intervening God.
That would be the theist vs. the deist God and obviously we would not expect to see the same behavior from both these Gods. The theist God is the personal God and the deist God is impersonal so He would not give a hoot if anyone believed that He existed. The logical deduction is that the theist God would provide evidence of His existence but the deist God would not provide anything...

But do you think that the theist God is obligated to provide proof?

Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
No, it wouldn't mean that. But again it could be argued whether there is any point in behaving in such ways as if one existed. Because nothing would be know about such God.

Do you mean that such a God could exist but if nothing could be known about such a God He may as well not exist? Is proof the only way God can act as if He exists? What about providing evidence?

In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?
Same as above, a God could exist, but again would be irrelevant.

Do you mean that a God that did not provide proof could exist but would be irrelevant because we would not know that He existed? But what if that God provided evidence, would that be good enough?

 

[osgart]

My premise is that if God existed God would have to provide the proof because there is no way we could ever get to where God exists and get the proof ourselves.

If God existed would there be proof?

I am not asking if there could be proof or if there should be proof, I am asking if there would be proof.

• If God existed would God provide proof of His existence?
• Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
• In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?

Thanks, Trailblazer

Do you mean a philosophical proof; an argument from sufficient evidence?

Something other than direct evidence?

I can comprehend that people justify their faith by way of inductive, or deductive philosophical reasoning. They would probably fall under the category of metaphysical proofs.

I am looking for proof of a divine truth of which a God of such truth may or may not exist. I think the only way to find such truth is personal, or private realization from being objective about the subjective experiences within self and observing others.

I wonder if perhaps God is hidden from us all because we need to seek God's truth first, and those that never look for God may one day stumble upon God's truth by way of a deserved realization and reckoning.

It may be that God will never reveal God's truth to the masses, but only by personal realization of God's truth from living life and reasoning within ourselves.

It may be the last door anyone ever comes too is to discover God.

Personal responsibility may be far more important than obedient faith, and perhaps everybody has it wrong and are going in the opposite direction of God by relying on obedient faith.

I am convinced that a vast many believers misconstrue God and are worshipping a delusion.

Why would God claim authority over what happens to humanity?

Why is it God's duty to intervene or involve God's self in humanity at all?

It's a very likely truth to me that we are entirely responsible for our own destiny, or fate and God has nothing to do with what we do, or become.

Perhaps by letting us go totally on our own and being separate from God is the only way we'll ever grow to become friends of God, and not just hyper dependent little babies.

 

[EtuMalku]

My premise is that if God existed God would have to provide the proof because there is no way we could ever get to where God exists and get the proof ourselves.

If God existed would there be proof?

I am not asking if there could be proof or if there should be proof, I am asking if there would be proof.

• If God existed would God provide proof of His existence?
• Does the fact that there is no proof of God's existence mean that God does not exist?
• In other words, could God exist and not provide proof of His existence?

Thanks, Trailblazer

I guess the first question is: In what way would a god exist? Would a god be in a form that we can experience/observe?

If an observable god exists then it would be in that god's interest to provide undeniable proof of existence.
No proof does not mean something doesn't exist, you cannot prove a negative.

 

[sun rise]

I cannot even imagine what it would be like if everyone not just believed but knew that God existed, although I believe it will be that way in the future since that is what the Bible and the Baha'i Writings say.

And it's in other religions as well. Sri Aurobindo, for example wrote this:

I saw the Omnipotent's flaming pioneers
Over the heavenly verge which turns towards life
Come crowding down the amber stairs of birth;
Forerunners of a divine multitude,
Out of the paths of the morning star they came
Into the little room of mortal life.
I saw them cross the twilight of an age,
The sun-eyed children of a marvellous dawn,
The great creators with wide brows of calm,
The massive barrier-breakers of the world
And wrestlers with destiny in her lists of will,
The labourers in the quarries of the gods,
The messengers of the Incommunicable,
The architects of immortality.
Into the fallen human sphere they came,
Faces that wore the Immortal's glory still,
Voices that communed still with the thoughts of God,
Bodies made beautiful by the spirit's light,
Carrying the magic word, the mystic fire,
Carrying the Dionysian cup of joy,
Approaching eyes of a diviner man,
Lips chanting an unknown anthem of the soul,
Feet echoing in the corridors of Time.
High priests of wisdom, sweetness, might and bliss,
Discoverers of beauty's sunlit ways
And swimmers of Love's laughing fiery floods
And dancers within rapture's golden doors,
Their tread one day shall change the suffering earth
And justify the light on Nature's face
...

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you mean a philosophical proof; an argument from sufficient evidence?

Something other than direct evidence?

No, I mean undeniable proof that everyone would accept, so everyone would not only believe, they would know that God exists.

I wonder if perhaps God is hidden from us all because we need to seek God's truth first, and those that never look for God may one day stumble upon God's truth by way of a deserved realization and reckoning.

I think there is truth to what you said, that we should seek God, but even those who do not seek might one day stumble upon God. That happened to me. I was not seeking God at all when I stumbled upon God.

I believe that God's Essence is forever hidden from us but God attributes and message has been manifested through the Messengers who are the Manifestations of God. Baha'u'llah wrote that God is the most manifest of the manifest and the most hidden of the hidden.

It may be that God will never reveal God's truth to the masses, but only by personal realization of God's truth from living life and reasoning within ourselves.

I believe that God has revealed Himself to the masses through the Messengers of God.

I am convinced that a vast many believers misconstrue God and are worshipping a delusion.

I fully agree.

Why is it God's duty to intervene or involve God's self in humanity at all?

I do not believe it is God's duty, it is only by God's mercy that He intervenes in this world. God has no obligation to humans.