If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

Christ was the Son of God.

 

[McBell]

Christ was the Son of God.

What is he now?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What is he now?

Haha good question. Imho the Son of God exists whenever and wherever there is a physical incarnation of God. The potential to be an incarnation of God exists whenever and wherever in universal existence an appropriate soul/vehicle is present which is prepared to sacrifice their personal ego self to the Divine Self/God. Iow, the potential is in you if you were up to it, but the destiny to do that would have been decided before your incarnation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

He is one with God, which is also expressed as the son of God.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

Welcome to Religious Forums, fellow yid

Jesus was a nice Jewish man. I think of him as brother J. But messiah? no. God? no. He is pretty irrelevant to me as a Jew. The only reason I discuss him is because there are many Christians here who bring him up.

BTW, I never say Jesus Christ or Christ, only Jesus, because if I use the world Christ, it would indicate I believe Jesus to be the messiah. I find it interesting that our Orthodox brethren call him Yoshke, in order not to say aloud the name of a foreign God.

It has been a topic of discussion among the rabbis how Christianity has been so instrumental in bringing the Torah to the world. I will be interested to see what people comment on your thread.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by Christians needing to know Hebrew? That Tanakh is in Hebrew, but of course the gospels were all written in Greek. I find it quite sad that virtually all Christians except a few scholars are dependent on inferior translations.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

but what did he preach?
did he say to follow rabbis?
If he said He is the Messiah or God himself, then by Judaism, which was the law for 1360 years by then, he was a criminal and his punishment is death by the Judicial authority.
I didn't hear that he said any prophecy. Did he?

We honestly don't know what he actually said and did. All we have are the gospels, which are collections of legends that had orally grown up around Jesus in the decades after his death. I'm not a scholar, but I know that they discuss this. Some say you can sort of sift out which things he really said, and on the other extreme you have those who say no Jesus ever existed.

I'm hardly qualified to have an opinion, but my suspicions are simply that he was a Pharisee of Beit Hillel, who went around teaching Torah. For unknown reasons, he became convinced that he was the messiah, but it didn't work out for him.

Jews claiming to be the messiah were a dime a dozen back then. It did not violate Jewish law. No one was interested in executing them.

Claiming to be God is a different matter, but I suspect Jesus never made this claim. Later Greek Christians, who were influenced by paganism, made him into a deity, and then inserted words into his mouth that were never there. In all fairness, there is a story in the gospel about Jesus after his death magically appearing in a room with his disciples, and Thomas says "My Lord and my God" and Jesus does not correct him. I obviously don't believe that story in the slightest, but Christians do use it to make their case for his deity.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

I see Jesus was a Messiah (Annointed One) but not the end of ages Messiah that the Jews have awaited for.

Regards Tony

 

[Ben Dhyan]

We honestly don't know what he actually said and did. All we have are the gospels, which are collections of legends that had orally grown up around Jesus in the decades after his death. I'm not a scholar, but I know that they discuss this. Some say you can sort of sift out which things he really said, and on the other extreme you have those who say no Jesus ever existed.

I'm hardly qualified to have an opinion, but my suspicions are simply that he was a Pharisee of Beit Hillel, who went around teaching Torah. For unknown reasons, he became convinced that he was the messiah, but it didn't work out for him.

I have no problem with there being many religions, but there is only one God so all roads lead to Home.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

how should I say it?

A Jew should never refer to Jesus as Christ. Christos is the Greek word for anointed, IOW another word meaning messiah. By referring to him as Christ, you are essentially agreeing that he is the messiah, which is something you actually said you do NOT believe. I simply refer to him as Jesus, or brother J. I know many Jews who call him Yoshke.

Fun thread

 

[IndigoChild5559]

All very good questions. He preached to love thy neighbor as thyself. In my view, that is his most important teaching.

Yet it wasn't really HIS teaching -- he was simply quoting from the Torah.

I don't recall him saying anything about rabbis.

Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

so,

was he killed for his teaching?

Pilate ordered his execution because he claimed to be King of the Jews, which was treason. This charge against him was said to even be written down and nailed above him on the cross, so that everyone viewing would know his offense.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I've looked on Google for "who edited the new testament", and came across this Wikipedia page saying"The earliest known complete list of the 27 books is found in a letter written by Athanasius, a 4th-century bishop of Alexandria, dated to 367 AD.[3] The 27-book New Testament was first formally canonized during the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in North Africa."

I thought it was known, they were the first church, they made it their official religion, there is a book called Romans in the new testament

Best I've heard on this subject is a set of Videos on You Tube put out by Useful Charts called "Who wrote the Bible." The speaker is a Jewish scholar. For the New Testament, there are three videos, the Gospels, the Epistles, and Daniel and Revelation. His videos on who wrote the Tanakh are excellent too.

 

[Spice]

I believe Jesus, and cousin John, were of the Essenes and helped to bring Eastern beliefs into the Middle East combining with Judaism to become Christianity. The Magi in the Nativity were from the east. Many teachings correspond with Buddhism and Zoroastriaism. And there is no mention of wives for either, which I understand was highly unlikely in any other Jewish sect, but quite common among Essenes at their age and as "rabis."

My understanding is that Nazareth was a main stop on a very busy trade route, which gave ample opportunity for them as boys and young men, to hear about many foreign philosophies, traditions, etc. I also think Jesus had conflicting thoughts going on in his mind during his formable years, but I must say I'm grateful for the path he followed.

Do I think he was God? No more or less than you or I, but consecrated, or chosen for a special destiny, oh yes! If God consecrated Jeremiah to be a prophet (Jeremiah Chapter1) then I most certainly believe Jesus was specifically chosen for the task he fulfilled -- conquering the world.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

~confused~ isn't missionary work in Israel illegal?

It's complicated. There is an excellent discussion of this here: Missionary activity in Israel

 

[Kfox]

Hi everyone, I'm Jewish, and I'm here to engage in a respectful and open discussion about the role of Jesus Christ. As someone who doesn't believe in Christ, I hold the perspective that both Christianity and Islam have been orchestrated by God to spread monotheism.

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

I do apologize if anyone is offended, but I think we should have an open, respectful, and tolerant discussion about anything.
I look forward to hearing different perspectives and engaging in a thoughtful exchange of ideas.

the problem with Jesus is that he never wrote anything down. So the only thing we know is what other people claimed he said. Personally I think he was one of countless religious leaders from the past.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sounds like you're the same boat as most Christians (and people of every other worldview), then.

Your reply doesn't make sense practically no Christians are raised in Judaism.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

a Christian told me that he actually saw Christ, so I can't tell him he isn't God. I told him he saw a demon

Far more likely that he simply hallucinated. Hallucinations are actually rather common. Demons appearing are not

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Do I have this information correct?

The correct definition is "young woman". Do you have a place where young woman is used in the sense of married to a man?

If I am not mistaken, there is a place in the proverbs where the word almah (young woman) is used to describe an adultress.

Look, young women have babies. Old women do not.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Look up Zoroastrianism

Zoroastrianism is dualism -- the cosmic battle between the good god and the evil god.

 

[Esteban X]

Christ was the Son of God.

Such a simple statement opens up a field of discussion. Reading just the gospel of Mark we can take the adoptionist view. Just as Adam was a son of God so are we all. Jesus was chosen at his baptism to be "The beloved Son in whom I am well pleased", to be a figure to be emulated and later act as a substitutionary sacrifice. The later gospels present him as the "begotten son" even God himself. Early Christianity hotly debated whether Jesus was human or divine or both, and if both, how much human how much divine. Of course you have to buy into the whole mythology, which i don't, for it to be of anymore than academic interest.