If Allah knows what is in each heart, why does he have to test people?

[Augustus]

I never said they were unreliable in terms of getting the general history right.

Such as splitting the moon, flying donkeys, important trading and pilgrimage centres that no one else in the region actually notices and texts aimed at backwater "pagans" that assumes a high degree of Biblical literacy?

Basically it's reliable when it suits you, and unreliable when it doesn't

If you're aware of any sources that claim the Hijra was not in 622 (I don't care if it was September 24 or not) or thereabouts, then present them.

You miss the point. It's not about the dating, it is about what the date actually refers to: What was the hijra?

Every single source I've used agrees to a similar chronology.

If you only read orthodox Islamic theology from the 9th C onwards instead of secular critical history then it's probably why you don't understand the difference.

If you want to know how reliable chronology was before they agreed on an orthodox narrative centuries later:

According to various Muslim sources Muhammad "was born in the Year of the Elephant, or fifty days after the attack of the troops of the Elephant, or thirty years after the Year of the Elephant, or forty years after the Year of the Elephant Many traditions are recorded in Ibn N~ al-Din's Jami' al-iithiu, fols. 179b-180b:the Prophet was born in the Year of the Elephant, he received the Revelation forty years after the Elephant (The fight at - K.) 'Ukaz took place fifteen years after the Elephant and the Ka'ba was built twenty-five years after the Elephant; the Prophet was born thirty days after the Elephant, or fifty days, or fifty-five days, or two months and six days, or ten years; some say twenty years, some say twenty-three years, some say thirty years, some say that God sent the Prophet with his mission fifteen years after the Ka'ba was built, and thus there were seventy years between the Elephant and the mission (mab'aJh) of the Prophet; some say that he was born fifteen years before the Elephant, some say forty days or fifty days, some say thirty years before the Elephant, and finally, some say that there were ten years between the expedition of the Elephant and the mission"

He's trying to impress you with his book larnin'.

Yes, yes, secular scholarship is bad, much better to misinformed or ignorant.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You didn't mention 7:53.

But if the true meaning of the Quran can't be known until judgement day, what use is it as a guide for people before then?

3:7 verses says, Quran has two type if verses. Clear verses and Symbolic.
The clear verses do not need interpretation and are sufficient until Day of Judgement.

So judgement day was in 1844? It seems to have gone under the radar somewhat.

Yes, as verse 19:39 had predicted, it was gone mostly under the radar. But the signs are fulfilled.

 

[stevecanuck]

According to various Muslim sources Muhammad "was born in the Year of the Elephant, or fifty days after the attack of the troops of the Elephant, or thirty years after the Year of the Elephant, or forty years after the Year of the Elephant Many traditions are recorded in Ibn N~ al-Din's Jami' al-iithiu, fols. 179b-180b:the Prophet was born in the Year of the Elephant, he received the Revelation forty years after the Elephant (The fight at - K.) 'Ukaz took place fifteen years after the Elephant and the Ka'ba was built twenty-five years after the Elephant; the Prophet was born thirty days after the Elephant, or fifty days, or fifty-five days, or two months and six days, or ten years; some say twenty years, some say twenty-three years, some say thirty years, some say that God sent the Prophet with his mission fifteen years after the Ka'ba was built, and thus there were seventy years between the Elephant and the mission (mab'aJh) of the Prophet; some say that he was born fifteen years before the Elephant, some say forty days or fifty days, some say thirty years before the Elephant, and finally, some say that there were ten years between the expedition of the Elephant and the mission"

Start....a....thread.

 

[stevecanuck]

3:7 verses says, Quran has two type if verses. Clear verses and Symbolic.
The clear verses do not need interpretation and are sufficient until Day of Judgement.

I found this tafsir on 3:7 (https://myislam.org/surah-imran/aya...ext=It is He Who has revealed the Book to you.).

‘Ambiguous’ verses are those whose meaning may have some degree of equivocation. It is obvious that no way of life can be prescribed for man unless a certain amount of knowledge explaining the truth about the universe, about its origin and end, about man’s position in it and other matters of similar importance, is intimated to him. It is also evident that the truths which lie beyond the range of human perception have always eluded and will continue to elude man; no words exist in the human vocabulary which either express or portray them. In speaking about such things, we necessarily resort to words and expressions generally employed in connection with tangible objects. In the Qur’an, too, this kind of language is employed in relation to supernatural matters; the verses which have been characterized as ‘ambiguous’ refer to such matters.

In other words, the author of this web site has no clue what it means either.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I found this tafsir on 3:7 (https://myislam.org/surah-imran/ayat-7/#:~:text=And those who are firmly,Message except men of understanding.&text=It is He Who has revealed the Book to you.).

‘Ambiguous’ verses are those whose meaning may have some degree of equivocation. It is obvious that no way of life can be prescribed for man unless a certain amount of knowledge explaining the truth about the universe, about its origin and end, about man’s position in it and other matters of similar importance, is intimated to him. It is also evident that the truths which lie beyond the range of human perception have always eluded and will continue to elude man; no words exist in the human vocabulary which either express or portray them. In speaking about such things, we necessarily resort to words and expressions generally employed in connection with tangible objects. In the Qur’an, too, this kind of language is employed in relation to supernatural matters; the verses which have been characterized as ‘ambiguous’ refer to such matters.

In other words, the author of this web site has no clue what it means either.

Wiki has some info on this, if you want to read:

Esoteric interpretation of the Quran - Wikipedia

 

[KWED]

Rehash: reuse old ideas or material without significant change.

The Quran absolutely reuses some of the same material and ideas from the OT, without significant change.
Really not sure what your argument is here. It's all there in black and white.

 

[KWED]

3:7 verses says, Quran has two type if verses. Clear verses and Symbolic.
The clear verses do not need interpretation and are sufficient until Day of Judgement.

So who decides which are clear and which remain unclear until Judgement Day (which you claim was 150 years ago!)?
You? Me? My mum?

Yes, as verse 19:39 had predicted, it was gone mostly under the radar. But the signs are fulfilled.

Whuh?
So you believe Judgement Day really was in 1844?
So what happened on that day? Why has nothing changed?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So who decides which are clear and which remain unclear until Judgement Day (which you claim was 150 years ago!)?
You? Me? My mum?

Muslim scholars generally agree that, those verses that can be understood in one way, are clear verses. These are typically Laws and ordinances, such as prayer, fasting, laws of marriage, punishments for adultery, etc.
The verses which could be interpreted in different ways, can be considered as unclear verses.

Although, practically different sects do not always agree on every verse if it is unclear.

Whuh?
So you believe Judgement Day really was in 1844?
So what happened on that day? Why has nothing changed?

All the signs of Judgement Day was fulfilled. Falling stars, darkening moon and sun, meeting with God, return of Christ, return of Jews to Israel ,etc.

But we now know many of those signs were symbolic and their interpretations are revealed now. For example we now know, "Stars", were religious leaders, who fell, meaning their spiritual station is fallen and they no longer are legitimate guides for people. Other signs also have a symbolic meaning which are revealed as it was promised in the Quran.
What might be interesting to you is, even from the Bible, the year of return of Christ was calculated to be 1844, and Christians people were expecting Him, just as in Persia some Shias were expecting Mahdi, in year 1844.

 

[KWED]

Muslim scholars generally agree that, those verses that can be understood in one way, are clear verses. These are typically Laws and ordinances, such as prayer, fasting, laws of marriage, punishments for adultery, etc.
The verses which could be interpreted in different ways, can be considered as unclear verses.

But even the "clear" verses seem to be interpreted in different ways.
Apologists argue that 4:34 does not mean what it clearly says. They argue over what 5:32-33 apply to. The disagree over the meaning and implication of 60:4. They argue about pretty much every clear verse that promotes violence or intolerance.

Although, practically different sects do not always agree on every verse if it is unclear.

Indeed. If scholars cannot even agree on which verses they need to agree on, what hope is there?

All the signs of Judgement Day was fulfilled. Falling stars, darkening moon and sun, meeting with God, return of Christ, return of Jews to Israel ,etc.

You'll have to explain those, along with the specific verses referring to them.

But we now know many of those signs were symbolic and their interpretations are revealed now. For example we now know, "Stars", were religious leaders, who fell, meaning their spiritual station is fallen and they no longer are legitimate guides for people. Other signs also have a symbolic meaning which are revealed as it was promised in the Quran.

Ah, so whether or not the signs of judgement day have been fulfilled, or even if they are signs at all, is unclear and open to interpretation. So you could be wrong.

What might be interesting to you is, even from the Bible, the year of return of Christ was calculated to be 1844, and Christians people were expecting Him, just as in Persia some Shias were expecting Mahdi, in year 1844.

OK. So who was the returning Christ in 1844, and how did Judgement Day manifest itself. And why didn't anyone notice?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But even the "clear" verses seem to be interpreted in different ways.
Apologists argue that 4:34 does not mean what it clearly says. They argue over what 5:32-33 apply to. The disagree over the meaning and implication of 60:4. They argue about pretty much every clear verse that promotes violence or intolerance.

Indeed. If scholars cannot even agree on which verses they need to agree on, what hope is there?

Completely agreed.

You'll have to explain those, along with the specific verses referring to them.

Ah, so whether or not the signs of judgement day have been fulfilled, or even if they are signs at all, is unclear and open to interpretation. So you could be wrong.

True.

OK. So who was the returning Christ in 1844,

The Bab, in 1844 announced that the Day of Resurrection has come, and He is the Promised One. He was a Persian, and Persia is a Shia Muslim majority country.
But even Bible hinted that, the Promised One will appear in Persia, and even the area, is mentioned in Bible which matches where the Bab was. Likewise in Islam, there are traditions that, Mahdi appears in Persia.

and how did Judgement Day manifest itself. And why didn't anyone notice?

Because the Judgement Day (aka Day of Resurrection), is like any other normal day, where the sun rises, and sun sets. No strange thing happens such as falling stars or coming angels. The only thing that happens is God speaks to humanity through His manifestation, and in this case the Bab. It is a day God reveals a new guidance, a new covenant.