If Allah knows what is in each heart, why does he have to test people?

[InvestigateTruth]

Whuh?
If you believe the Quran is the word of god, then you must believe he tortures people who reject him - because he says so in the Quran!
Or are you saying that Allah is not a kind, wise god?

Have you read the Quran? It contains detailed, specific descriptions of the tortures he will inflict on disbelievers in hell.

If you are claiming that even the unequivocal and unambiguous statements are actually metaphors, then what does the Quran even mean?

The meaning of the Day of Judgement, Hell and Heaven will be know only on that Day:


"For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe. Are they [the unbelievers] waiting for the final prophecy to unfold? On the Day when its final meaning will unfolded, those who ignored it before will say, "Our Lord's Messengers spoke the Truth. Is there anyone to intercede for us now? Or, could we be brought back [to life] so that we might behave differently than how we behaved before?" They will have lost their souls and all the lies they had invented will have forsaken them."

 

[KWED]

Test: "an event or situation that reveals the strength or quality of someone or something by putting them under strain"

That is the noun, not the verb. However, the concept is still one of determining previously unknown information. There is no "unknown information" where god is concerned.

Why would you say it is "naive" and "derivative" in this context?

1. I rehashes earlier beliefs and existing customs (as Dye points out).
1. The author assumes a large degree of credulity amongst its audience. They clearly didn't imagine it would be dissected and analysed in the way it has been. Or perhaps they simply didn't't care as it was designed to serve their purposes at the time and nothing more - much as some politicians today approach policy-making.

 

[KWED]

The meaning of the Day of Judgement, Hell and Heaven will be know only on that Day:


"For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe. Are they [the unbelievers] waiting for the final prophecy to unfold? On the Day when its final meaning will unfolded, those who ignored it before will say, "Our Lord's Messengers spoke the Truth. Is there anyone to intercede for us now? Or, could we be brought back [to life] so that we might behave differently than how we behaved before?" They will have lost their souls and all the lies they had invented will have forsaken them."

How does this show that Allah does not torture disbelievers forever?
Have to read all those passages where he clearly and explicitly says that he does?

 

[KWED]

Quran is a relative truth.
Its Laws and ordinances are only useful to an appointed time:

"Indeed, those who reverence the Rites decreed by GOD demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts. In them are benefits to an Appointed Time, then their place is to the ancient House” 22:33


Therefore the Quranic Rites are benefitial until their appointed time, then after that, Religious Laws are Referred to the Ancient House, which according to Recorded Traditions, is in Heaven.
The term "ancient house" is a symbolic term, and is a reference to where Quran original descended from Heaven.



If the Book was meant to be forever then, it would have been foolish. But it is not.
Every Book of God is revealed only for a period of time:

"...Every appointed term has its own Revelation and law, God annuls or confirms whatever He wills [of His earlier messages] -for with Him is the source of all revelation" 13:38-39



Correct, God is inaccessible, so, it is impossible to go to war with Him. So, this verse is about, when a Messenger has come and is revealing the words of God, whoever goes to war with this process, is having war with God. But once Quran is revealed and the work is completed, then it is over. The verse is no longer applicable.


Correct. But there are "and"s between these conditions. So, it means that if someone is have war with God, and His Messenger, AND, is doing corruption, then...
It does not say this OR, that OR that. So, it is not like, if any of these is done, but all together...


That's is upto God. If He changes the ordinances, then it can be permitted.

Sorry, I was assuming that you were a Muslim.
If you do not believe that the Quran is Allah's final, infallible rule book for all mankind, then obviously my arguments will not apply.

 

[KWED]

Most of everything you says about islam are islamiofobic. You spredning untruth about how others should understand the teaching they follow when you do not follow it your self

A definition of Islamophobia in the Oxford English Dictionary is "Dislike of Islam, especially as a political force".
How does that position mean that any arguments made are necessarily false?

 

[KWED]

Why are your interpretation of Islam rhe correct one?

I don't really have any interpretations. Where a passage seems unclear I generally refer to classical tafsir.

But you accept that no one is justified in saying that the Quran definitely means X. In which case you similarly cannot reject anyone's interpretation if it logically follows from the words used.

 

[Spirit of Light]

A definition of Islamophobia in the Oxford English Dictionary is "Dislike of Islam, especially as a political force".
How does that position mean that any arguments made are necessarily false?

I do not say you speak only false, but where you lack knowledge is to actually practice a form of Islam, where you lack understanding is what true practice of Islam do to a persons soul or spirit within.

To know every word in the Quran is not the same as understanding the truemeaning of what the teaching does to a person.

Some will only see it as radical and they follow it as radical.

Others see the love and kindness and they follow it this way.

 

[Augustus]

That is the noun, not the verb. However, the concept is still one of determining previously unknown information. There is no "unknown information" where god is concerned.

Yes, the one being tested learns something when they fail regardless of whether or not they know they are being tested. And theologically, they do eventually find out the result anyway.

So it meets both the definition and your completely made-up and arbitrary criteria anyway.

1. I rehashes earlier beliefs and existing customs (as Dye points out).
1. The author assumes a large degree of credulity amongst its audience. They clearly didn't imagine it would be dissected and analysed in the way it has been. Or perhaps they simply didn't't care as it was designed to serve their purposes at the time and nothing more - much as some politicians today approach policy-making.

Both of them specifically reject that facile idea common on the internet that the author is simply "rehashing" old concepts.

They also both reject idea that the audience were dumb pagans who couldn't see this obvious plagiarism (another facile internet trope), and assume a high degree of religious literacy on behalf of the audience.

And as a sectarian work of rhetoric and theological commentary, why would people not assume arguments would be dissected and challenged?

 

[stevecanuck]

Most of everything you says about islam are islamiofobic. You spredning untruth about how others should understand the teaching they follow when you do not follow it your self

Here is the question you have steadfastly refused to address >>>>>>>>>> What have I said about Islam that is demonstrably wrong?

Every time you dodge the question you further demonstrate that you can't rebut me based on the facts.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How does this show that Allah does not torture disbelievers forever?
Have to read all those passages where he clearly and explicitly says that he does?

It means, that the actual meaning of Hell OT Hevean and Day of Resurrection is not known, until on the Day of Resurrection their interpretations and/or fulfilment comes. It means Hell or Hevean have a symbolic meaning, which will be known later on the Judgement Day.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry, I was assuming that you were a Muslim.
If you do not believe that the Quran is Allah's final, infallible rule book for all mankind, then obviously my arguments will not apply.

Right. I believe in Quran, but do not believe Quran is final as I supported that with verses of Quran.

 

[Augustus]

What have I said about Islam that is demonstrably wrong?

You keep on saying you are not relying on theological sources written centuries after the fact when you discuss the historical context of the revelation of the Quran, but are unable to explain which sources you are relying on that weren't theological sources or written centuries after the fact.

Of course, you are very much relying on theological sources written centuries after the fact, which is why you have shamelessly dodged the question 20+ times in multiple threads.

Every time you dodge the question you further demonstrate that you can't rebut me based on the facts.

Then don't be a hypocrite and dodge the question for the 4th time in this thread alone:

For someone who is both interested and "not a drive by critic", where does this historical context come from? Who wrote it down and when?

I'm going to assume you didn't accept the historical context for the above verses [here], why should I uncritically trust the same sources regarding other forms of "historical context"?

What method do you use to sort the wheat from the chaff regarding the accuracy of unverifiable information written in theological sources centuries after the fact?

 

[stevecanuck]

You keep on saying you are not relying on theological sources written centuries after the fact when you discuss the historical context of the revelation of the Quran, but are unable to explain which sources you are relying on that weren't theological sources or written centuries after the fact.

Of course, you are very much relying on theological sources written centuries after the fact, which is why you have shamelessly dodged the question 20+ times in multiple threads.

Then don't be a hypocrite and dodge the question for the 4th time in this thread alone:

For someone who is both interested and "not a drive by critic", where does this historical context come from? Who wrote it down and when?

I'm going to assume you didn't accept the historical context for the above verses [here], why should I uncritically trust the same sources regarding other forms of "historical context"?

What method do you use to sort the wheat from the chaff regarding the accuracy of unverifiable information written in theological sources centuries after the fact?

Let me be clear. I have not said that. I have said that knowing the historical context behind the revelation of any given verse is interesting and lends focus, but it is NOT necessary to the understanding of the Qur'an as a whole. For example, Islamic scholars are, to the best of my knowledge, in unanimous agreement that surah 9:38 to the end was 'revealed' to the time of Mohamed's attempt to start a war with the Byzantines (the non-Battle of Tobuk), and is largely aimed at the reluctant Hypocrites. That 'knowledge' helps us to see why 9:38 says, "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?". However, nothing in the historical context changes the message. It still asks believers why they don't fight when asked to.

Of course tafsirs ARE theological sources, and I have never said otherwise. I have only questioned whether they're necessary to understand Islam. Does that help?

 

[Augustus]

Let me be clear. I have not said that. I have said that knowing the historical context behind the revelation of any given verse is interesting and lends focus, but it is NOT necessary to the understanding of the Qur'an as a whole.

Why do you think that scholars compiled multiple, voluminous traditions (sirah/hadith/etc.) specifically to explain the Quran and how to interpret it if such information is not necessary?

Why would the dominant strand of Islam globally acknowledge its debt to these traditions in its very name, if it wasn't necessary?

Why do many Muslims consider Quranism to be heretical if they didn't consider it necessary?

For example, Islamic scholars are, to the best of my knowledge, in unanimous agreement that surah 9:38 to the end was 'revealed' to the time of Mohamed's attempt to start a war with the Byzantines (the non-Battle of Tobuk), and is largely aimed at the reluctant Hypocrites. That 'knowledge' helps us to see why 9:38 says, "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?". However, nothing in the historical context changes the message. It still asks believers why they don't fight when asked to.

They even more unanimously agree that he flew around on a donkey...

But why would context regarding why people are being asked to fight be irrelevant?

Very recently, Ukraine stopped men fleeing the country and forced them to join the army. Context certainly to understand this.

Of course tafsirs ARE theological sources, and I have never said otherwise. I have only questioned whether they're necessary to understand Islam. Does that help?

All of the early Muslim sources describing the 'history' of Islam are theological.

So you do accept that when you talk about the context of revelation, whether something is a "Meccan" or "Medinan" surah, the details of Muhammad's life and the battles he fought in, etc. is, with the exception of a handful of basic details, only known via theological sources written centuries after the fact?

 

[stevecanuck]

Why do you think that scholars compiled multiple, voluminous traditions (sirah/hadith/etc.) specifically to explain the Quran and how to interpret it if such information is not necessary?

Just the fact that they've done it proves the Qur'an was authored by a man rather than a god. It's a mess, albeit a mess, that when consider in total, conveys a clear overall message an enmity and hatred toward unbelievers. Where the Qur'an says, "So have I made the Qur'an simple", every scholar who has ever created a tafsir seems to disagree with their god in that regard. We appear to agree on that point.

Why would the dominant strand of Islam globally acknowledge its debt to these traditions in its very name, if it wasn't necessary?

This has strayed into a discussion that deserves a separate thread. Hadith, sunnah, tafsirs, and sirat rasul allah are all post-quran. This thread is entirely about one point of illogic in the Qur'an.

Why do many Muslims consider Quranism to be heretical if they didn't consider it necessary?

I have no idea why you're asking me. The Qur'an was created by 'Allah' for the sole purpose of creating and defining Islam. Again, the fact that he apparently needs so much help to get his message across proves no gods were involved in this process.

They even more unanimously agree that he flew around on a donkey...

And that a non-existent angel appeared to him with a message from a non-existent god. What's your point?

But why would context regarding why people are being asked to fight be irrelevant?

Because this so-called perfect god didn't see fit to provide the historical context. That is what makes such commands open-ended and not tied to a specific point in time or a specific circumstance.

Very recently, Ukraine stopped men fleeing the country and forced them to join the army. Context certainly to understand this.

.

That was a spectacular non sequitur. No imaginary gods are involved in Putin's disaster.

All of the early Muslim sources describing the 'history' of Islam are theological.

Yup. To the best of my knowledge.

So you do accept that when you talk about the context of revelation, whether something is a "Meccan" or "Medinan" surah, the details of Muhammad's life and the battles he fought in, etc. is, with the exception of a handful of basic details, only known via theological sources written centuries after the fact?

I have some issues regarding exactly when in each period certain verses were 'revealed', but I agree with the general Mecca/Yathrib division as presented by most scholars because:

1. The overall tone and style of each period are distinct.
2. None of the Meccan surahs were event-driven. Are were all just believe-or-burn warnings delivered with mind-numbing repetition.
3. The introduction of militarism and killing "fee sabil allah" are clearly separated between the two periods.
4. The introduction of rules specific to Islam are clearly separated between the two periods.
5. Many references to battles of known date and to relations with Mecca appear only in Yathrib verses.

It really is obvious in the main. I agree the odd 'revelation' is in doubt (I think the first 39 verses of surah 2 could have just as easily been created in Mecca, but it doesn't make much difference either way).

 

[stevecanuck]

Please show me the love and kindness in the following:

- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
- 2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
- 2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".
- 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them ...".
"God could have taken vengeance upon them, but (He ordered armed struggle) to test some of you ...".
"Those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds".
- 47:20 through 47:23 "when a precise surah is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein, you see those in whose hearts is hypocrisy looking at you with a look of one overcome by death... when the matter (preparation for Jihad) is resolved, then if they had been true to Allah [by fighting], it would have been better for them".
- 47:31 "We will surely test you until We make evident those who strive [wage jihad]".
- 47:35 "So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior".
- 22:58 "Those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision".
- 49:15 "The believers ... strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah".
- 66:9 "O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them".
- 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure".
- 61:10 through 61:13 "Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? You shall believe in Allah and His Messenger, and struggle hard in Allah's way with your property and your lives. He will admit you to Gardens. and other things you love, help from God and a nigh victory".

continued ....

 

[stevecanuck]

- 48:16 "You shall be called against a people possessed of great might to fight them".
- 48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers".
- 5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified".
- 5:35 - "O ye who believe! ... strive in His way".
- 5:54 "mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way".
- 9;5, "kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush".
- 9:13 "Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first".
- 9:14 "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands".
- 9:16 "Do you think that you will be left (as you are) while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive (for His cause)".
- 9:19 "strives in the cause of Allah".
- 9:20 "The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:29 "Fight against those who have been given the Scripture [Jews and Christians]".
- 9:30 "The Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah ... May Allah destroy them".
- 9:36 "Fight against the disbelievers".
- 9:38 "What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?".
- 9:39 "If you do not go forth, He will punish you".
- 9:41 "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah".
- 9:44 "Those who believe in God and the Day of Judgment do not ask you whether they should fight for the cause of God".
- 9:45 "It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihad)" [clarification added by Mohsin Khan translation].
- 9:52 "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)?".
- 9:73 "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them".
- 9:81 "they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah''.
- 9:86 "Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Messenger".
- 9:88 "But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:93 "The blameworthy ones are those who ask for exemption [from fighting] despite their ability".
- 9:111 "Surely Allah has bought from the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain".
- 9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you"

 

[atlas]

The following verses make it clear that Allah knows everything you think and do:

40:19 - "God knows the disloyalty of the eyes and what the hearts conceal".
3:29 - "Whether you hide what is in your hearts or manifest it, Allah knows it".
3:119 - "Allah knows well all the secrets of the heart".
3:154 - "Allah knows the thoughts in the breasts".
58:7 - "Hast thou not seen that Allah knows all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth? There is no secret conference of three but He is their fourth".

Then, in a spectacular display of illogic, he claims he has to test the faithful to make sure that they are indeed faithful. Either he knows or he doesn't:

2:155 - "We shall test you through fear, hunger, loss of life, property, and crops".
3:140 - "We alternate among the people so that Allah may make evident those who believe".
3:142 - "Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while Allah has not yet made evident those of you who fight in His cause and made evident those who are steadfast?"
3:154 - "Allah might test what is in your breasts".
3:166 - "What ye suffered on the day the two armies Met, was with the leave of Allah, in order that He might test the believers".
3:179 - "Allah will not leave the believers in the state in which you are now, until He distinguishes the wicked from the good".

The eagle-eyed among you would have noticed that verse 3:154 is in both lists. That's because it demonstrates the contradiction all by itself. Here is the Shakir translation of the end of the verse: "Allah might test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts; and Allah knows what is in the breasts".

 

[KWED]

It means, that the actual meaning of Hell OT Hevean and Day of Resurrection is not known, until on the Day of Resurrection their interpretations and/or fulfilment comes. It means Hell or Hevean have a symbolic meaning, which will be known later on the Judgement Day.

That's not what the Quran says though, so on what do you base that claim?

 

[KWED]

I do not say you speak only false,

You said that I "spread Islamophobic untruths". Please point out anything I have said that is untrue.

but where you lack knowledge is to actually practice a form of Islam, where you lack understanding is what true practice of Islam do to a persons soul or spirit within.

To know every word in the Quran is not the same as understanding the truemeaning of what the teaching does to a person.

Some will only see it as radical and they follow it as radical.

Others see the love and kindness and they follow it this way.

The followers of all religions can make exactly the same claim.
What does any of that have to do with whether Islam is true or not, or whether contains passages that can be interpreted as promoting or condoning violence or intolerance?