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Idiot Public School Superintendent Upset Because He Can't Display The 10 Cs

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Based on the more SCOTUS decisions, we need to be all inclusive (in terms of allowing various religious displays) or all exclusive when it comes to religious displays on public property, including public schools.

So, if instead of the Ten Commandments the display was the Islamic "Fire Pillars of Faith" or the Buddhist "Four Noble Truths", what would be the reaction by those protesting this if they were forced to be taken down?

ABSOLUTELY! Spot-on.

What if a Satanist wanted to post their "Do No Harm, Otherwise, Do As Ye Will" plaque.

In truth, there is little in that, which goes against Common Decency, but the screams would be heard from here...
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
5) It doesn't reflect the reality that many would have gotten insurance anyway through their job places and indeed millions did.
Too many people werent able to get any or adequate insurance from their employer. Back in Indiana, where I used to live, pre-ACA, Chrysler was like a lottery because that was one of the few jobs that did cone with good insurance. Everybody else was tossed to the malestrom. Now, post-ACA, Indiana expanded its HIP program to make it significantly and considerably easier for people to qualify for.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Then, for another religion, you're strangely ambivalent about it.

Nope you need to go back and read all my post. I've only stated it's up to the local govt/community if something like that should be displayed in a school.

Sorry to burst your bubble.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
It doesn't matter who or why attention was drawn to the plaque. It should not be there.

That's your opinion. Unfortunately if you don't live in that community, your opinion is invalid.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
So federal law trumps state law period then?

Are you sure you want to play that game?
Thats been a back-and-forth issue since before day 1 of America's sovereignty. Basically, freedom and liberties should be maximized. Sometimes the federal law does this, sometimes it impedes it. In this case, communitarian politics are notorious for being detrimental to the rights and liberties of minorities. They shouldnt be punished for existing, yet they, and other outcasts and non-conformists, often struggle when the community decides whats best. And in this case specifically, its not only promoting the idea Jehovah is the only acceptable god to worship, even though students of other religions will reject that notion, it is totally at odds and against American values, which does include both the freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Especially when in full context we see that execution is the penalty for having other gods.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Thats been a back-and-forth issue since before day 1 of America's sovereignty.

Meh I don't care one way or the either, but I'd just like to see people be consistent on it instead of using/abusing it when it suits their needs, and the on the other hand try to dismantle it when you disagree with it.


Can't have your cake and eat it too.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Meh I don't care one way or the either, but I'd just like to see people be consistent on it instead of using/abusing it when it suits their needs, and the on the other hand try to dismantle it when you disagree with it.


Can't have your cake and eat it too.
In general Im not too fond of states rights. In Indiana, that has lead to a stream of politicians who force their agenda on the public (Mitch Daniels did it with DST, which was extremely unpopular with the public), and here in California I arrived just in time to realize people are voting in things they cant possibly be making an jnformed decision on some of these high dollar propositions of significant impact. And it gets abused a lot, such as how the South used it against Northern States to capture runaway slaves, and today in places today like Indiana or Alabama where religious agendas are forced on the public, often to discriminatory and damaging ends (I was taught in school a womans vagina gets used up like scotch tape and nasty like used chewing gum). However, with that said, it sometimes can be used to ends to increase liberties and freedoms (something Indiana did do right by preserving hunting and fishing as rights as well as ensuring funding for related programs), and to necessary ends, such as states that have allowed medical cannabis (I had to get it in there somewhere :p), which allow patients more freedom in deciding their own treatment (and it really is so much better when legal options are available, because then dosing becomes significantly easier, rather than being practically impossible where untested and unmeasured strains and products are made). Overall though, I do think communitarian and democratic policies needlessly run too high a risk of having disasterous consequences (Brexit).
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
You mean the Constitution, which is the basis behind FFRF's actions? But anyway, your claim is that opposing theocracy causes people to desire theocracy out of spite?

You guys do not understand the Constitution.

It's Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

What does this mean? It means you can't say Maryland will be a Catholic-only state. You also can't forbid everyone in the same state from going to church. It's about being religiously neutral, neither in favor or against it.

That you guys seem to think he's an idiot for doing so reveals your extreme ignorance. In other words, don't call people idiots, unless you want to be called idiots.

Our library has a copy or two of the Bible, it also has a Quran, and other religious books. This what it means to be religiously neutral. By the way, here's what the Supreme Court said on this exact issue.

The Court offered minimal analysis and simply labeled the Ten Commandments "an undeniably sacred text," comparing the posting of the Ten Commandments to the daily Bible reading held unconstitutional in Abington Sch. Dist. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963). Stone, 449 U.S. at 41. But the Court then suggested that the constitutional problems disappear if "the Ten Commandments are integrated into the school curriculum, where the Bible may constitutionally be used in an appropriate study of history, civilization, ethics, comparative religion, or the like." Id. at 42. Thus, on the one hand, the Court condemned the posting of the Ten Commandments as serving "no such educational function," and on the other hand, approved of them, religious provisions included, for use as part of a course in schools. Id. at 42. At least indirectly then, the Court acknowledged the importance of context in a display of the Ten Commandments.

In case you missed all that, they said that just having it alone is unconstitutional, but having it accompanied with Bible course is somehow constitutional (yeah, I don't get their rationale either). Basically, if they have it just to kinda foist a symbol on people, I guess that's no go, but they fully approve of such within the confines of a curriculum. And no, it didn't seem to matter public of private school.

So then we read up on whether people can share their faith in a public school (they certainly can in private schools and religious schools) we find it's complicated because public school teachers are both private citizens and government employees:

Can Christian teachers express their faith in public schools?

In general, teachers can respond when a student directly asks them a question about their personal beliefs. But teachers can get into sticky situations if they use the questions to begin giving what amounts to a church sermon to the entire class.

Teachers can also run into claims—especially when very young students are involved—that it wasn’t clear whether they were explaining their personal beliefs or those of the school. So it’s also a good idea for teachers to preempt their answers with a clear statement that they are expressing their personal perspectives.

Teachers can engage in religious-freedom activities with other adult educators before and after school. This can include after-school Bible study and prayer groups for teachers or the distribution of invitations to religious-themed community events among educators.

Extracurricular religious activities are allowed, even on premise. They later noted this can happen during lunch, which is considered not part of the schooling time.

They can also educate and provide classroom instruction about Christianity and the Bible especially when doing lessons about history, culture or literature (provided this is about education not devotion). The Supreme Court did rule against reading the Bible in class, but mainly because it forces kids to read this aloud. There is no restriction, nor should there be of Bible study in clubs, or in elective classes that the student takes themselves.

As for religious symbols?

  • According to both a federal district and appeals court, mandatory prayers occurring in an Arkansas school district crossed the line into a constitutional violation—while a Bible sitting on the superintendent’s desk did not. The “Bible and framed scripture verses in [the superintendent’s] office . . . were protected by the first amendment's free speech and free exercise clauses.”
  • Likewise, in 2012, a Texas district court cited the above case and stated that teachers’ personal religious items, such as crosses on their desk, did not violate the constitution. “There was no danger of a high school student getting the wrong impression that the District was promoting religion when a teacher displayed a cross next to her other family, vacation, or other personal mementos any more than having a family photo on the teacher’s desk proves that the District promotes procreation or going skiing.”
  • But more recently, in 2014, a teacher lost a lengthy court battle to fight his termination after displaying Christian-themed materials in his classroom, including a Bible on his desk. The case was complicated by the fact that several verbal and printed expressions were at issue, not simply the Bible on his desk. While the Ohio Supreme Court judges upheld the termination, they also pointed out that the school district’s “order for [the teacher] to remove his personal Bible from his desk was neither reasonable nor valid; the order infringed on . . . free-exercise rights without justification.” But another judge (who wrote a concurring opinion in the case) thought that the school did have the right to require the teacher to keep his Bible out of sight in a drawer.

So generally, even when they upheld objections to public displays of religion, they still said it was out of line to do so. Bottom line? If the superintendent wanted it on a school mural, probably not. If he wants some stone tablets near his Bible, cross, icon of Mary, etc sure go ahead. It falls under personal belongings.
 
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Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
It's up to that particular local community, not me.
You misunderstood the question. The question was not about it being up to you whether schools put any and all religious texts out on display, but whether you were ok with it or not. I hope that helps clarify things, since your answer made no sense in the context of the question asked.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
You guys do not understand the Constitution.

It's Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

What does this mean? It means you can't say Maryland will be a Catholic-only state. You also can't forbid everyone in the same state from going to church. It's about being religiously neutral, neither in favor or against it.

That you guys seem to think he's an idiot for doing so reveals your extreme ignorance. In other words, don't call people idiots, unless you want to be called idiots.

Our library has a copy or two of the Bible, it also has a Quran, and other religious books. This what it means to be religiously neutral. By the way, here's what the Supreme Court said on this exact issue.



In case you missed all that, they said that just having it alone is unconstitutional, but having it accompanied with Bible course is somehow constitutional (yeah, I don't get their rationale either). Basically, if they have it just to kinda foist a symbol on people, I guess that's no go, but they fully approve of such within the confines of a curriculum. And no, it didn't seem to matter public of private school.

So then we read up on whether people can share their faith in a public school (they certainly can in private schools and religious schools) we find it's complicated because public school teachers are both private citizens and government employees:

Can Christian teachers express their faith in public schools?







Extracurricular religious activities are allowed, even on premise. They later noted this can happen during lunch, which is considered not part of the schooling time.

They can also educate and provide classroom instruction about Christianity and the Bible especially when doing lessons about history, culture or literature (provided this is about education not devotion). The Supreme Court did rule against reading the Bible in class, but mainly because it forces kids to read this aloud. There is no restriction, nor should there be of Bible study in clubs, or in elective classes that the student takes themselves.

As for religious symbols?



So generally, even when they upheld objections to public displays of religion, they still said it was out of line to do so. Bottom line? If the superintendent wanted it on a school mural, probably not. If he wants some stone tablets near his Bible, cross, icon of Mary, etc sure go ahead. It falls under personal belongings.
Having copies of religious text in a library is not the same as posting materials that promote a particular religion or religious view. The very thing that the Constitutions says that government shall not do.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
You misunderstood the question. The question was not about it being up to you whether schools put any and all religious texts out on display, but whether you were ok with it or not. I

See that's what you don't understand though. Doesn't matter what I like or not because I am not apart of that community. Therefore I have no say, and my feeling about it are irrelevant. Just as your is.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
That's your opinion. Unfortunately if you don't live in that community, your opinion is invalid.
It is the opinion of the founders, those who have interpreted their founding documents, and most of the American people.

Ultimately, EVERYTHING is an "opinion", however, as we humans are not omniscient, and so must guess at the truth of things. Including you. So your attempt, here, at de-legitimizing my point by labeling it "opinion" doesn't pass logical or honest muster.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
See that's what you don't understand though. Doesn't matter what I like or not because I am not apart of that community. Therefore I have no say, and my feeling about it are irrelevant. Just as your is.
I do understand. You did not answer the question. You deflected. Nobody asked me what I felt. My answer would be relevant to such a question.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I do understand. You did not answer the question. You deflected. Nobody asked me what I felt. My answer would be relevant to such a question.

That is the answer. My feeling are irrelevant because I am not apart of that community. Just as your feelings don't matter because you are not apart of it. :shrug:
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That is the answer. My feeling are irrelevant because I am not apart of that community. Just as your feelings don't matter because you are not apart of it. :shrug:
My feelings matter. How do you know what community I am a part of and not a part? What is a community? How big or small must it be and what are the boundaries that define it so that some are a part and others are not?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That is the answer. My feeling are irrelevant because I am not apart of that community. Just as your feelings don't matter because you are not apart of it. :shrug:
Is the community the families of the students of the school? The city of New Philadelphia? The state of Ohio? The Midwest? The eastern United States? All of these could be argued to be communities?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
That is the answer. My feeling are irrelevant because I am not apart of that community. Just as your feelings don't matter because you are not apart of it. :shrug:
What if a community decides that killing every third person is OK? Since it is the will of the community it is all good?
 
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