Idaho bans transgender person from athletics or changing gender of birth certificates

[Shadow Wolf]

While I disagree with this, there are many advantages to male physiology,

If a MtF doesnt undergo an androgenic puberty they do noy have those advantages, as their skeletons developed under the influence of estrogen instead of testosterone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, it’s not. It’s called coincidence. Or are you suggesting that months ago when this legislation was introduced, long before anyone knew of the current coronavirus pandemic, that its authors knew the pandemic would happen and planned on having it signed into law right now?

Coincidence, not priorities.

How many real issues do they have going on right now that require urgent attention? I assure you this is not one ofthose issues of priority, as ultimately games are games.

 

[Shaul]

How many real issues do they have going on right now that require urgent attention? I assure you this is not one ofthose issues of priority, as ultimately games are games.

And I can assure you that you don’t set priorities for anyone but yourself. For someone who doesn’t think discussing this topic is any priority you sure are posting a lot about. But, hey, if you don’t think it is important to be informed when legislation about transgenders is passed, then feel free to remain ignorant of what is going on. I didn’t make this news. I was just reporting it. Don’t blame the messenger.

 

[Skwim]

There is no reason a MtF who had an estrogenic puberty shluld not be allowed to compete as they would have nine of the advantages of those who had an androgenic puberty.

Not completely sure what you mean by "estrogenic puberty" because it doesn't show up in a Google search. However, "estrogen puberty" does, which I assume you're referring to, and is a condition in females. But in looking up "estrogen puberty in males," which I assume you're really referring to, I find that:

"Guys have mostly androgens in their systems, but they also have small amounts of estrogen. In girls, breast growth is caused by high levels of estrogen. Normally, when going through puberty, a guy's production of androgens increases greatly, whereas estrogen production remains low.

However, sometimes guys produce enough estrogen during puberty that some breast tissue develops. Breast tissue growth in guys can appear on one or both sides of the chest, and the breast area can feel tender. This doesn't mean a guy is turning into a girl or anything. It's just a minor change in hormones as he begins to grow into adulthood."
source​

To which I can only say, so what? Do you think that higher than normal amounts of estrogen during puberty in a male leaves him no stronger than a female? If so, you'll need to produce the evidence.

Then there's the fact that estrogen levels play next to no role in gender identity formation---gender dysphoria, a mental state, being the issue with transgender identity---making it all a moot issue. *

* source

.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not completely sure what you mean by "estrogenic puberty" because it doesn't show up in a Google search. However, "estrogen puberty" does, which I assume you're referring to, and is a condition in females. But in looking up "estrogen puberty in males," which I assume you're really referring to, I find that:

"Guys have mostly androgens in their systems, but they also have small amounts of estrogen. In girls, breast growth is caused by high levels of estrogen. Normally, when going through puberty, a guy's production of androgens increases greatly, whereas estrogen production remains low.

However, sometimes guys produce enough estrogen during puberty that some breast tissue develops. Breast tissue growth in guys can appear on one or both sides of the chest, and the breast area can feel tender. This doesn't mean a guy is turning into a girl or anything. It's just a minor change in hormones as he begins to grow into adulthood."
source​

To which I can only say, so what? Do you think that higher than normal amounts of estrogen during puberty in a male leaves him no stronger than a female? If so, you'll need to produce the evidence.

Then there's the fact that estrogen levels play next to no role in gender identity formation---gender dysphoria, a mental state, being the issue with transgender identity---making it all a moot issue. *

* source

.

It seems you are making this more complicated than need be. If someone has a puberty guided by estrogen, their body will basically be female regardlessof birth sex. It would be the opposite with testosterone. Thus, if a MtF is on testosterone blockers soon enkugh to not have a male puberty, and instead develops more like a demand for to estrogen, they will not have the advantages of those who had a puberty guided by testosterone and then later went on estrogen and testosterone blockers.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And I can assure you that you don’t set priorities for anyone but yourself. For someone who doesn’t think discussing this topic is any priority you sure are posting a lot about. But, hey, if you don’t think it is important to be informed when legislation about transgenders is passed, then feel free to remain ignorant of what is going on. I didn’t make this news. I was just reporting it. Don’t blame the messenger.

Im pointing out that amidst a crisis being concerned about sports is a very trivial and insignificant thing, and enacting a law that will complicate certain things for people (such as getting a passport and traveling outside of America) at this time is spiteful.

 

[columbus]

It seems you are making this more complicated than need be. If someone has a puberty guided by estrogen, their body will basically be female regardlessof birth sex. It would be the opposite with testosterone. Thus, if a MtF is on testosterone blockers soon enkugh to not have a male puberty, and instead develops more like a demand for to estrogen, they will not have the advantages of those who had a puberty guided by testosterone and then later went on estrogen and testosterone blockers.

No, you're oversimplifying this.
Not everything gender related is about hormones. And most transfolk don't don't transition before puberty.

Frankly, I oppose that, myself.

But I'm not in charge of other people's lives. I think sports organizations should decide their own rules themselves. Not be forced by the government or social media into a decision they consider unfair.
Just as I think that private entities like Target should decide their own restroom policies without government intervention.


But if 99% of female athletes don't want to compete with men or transwomen, why should they be required to do so? Similarly, I don't think that the NFL should be required to have female players.
Tom

 

[McBell]

Idaho has passed legislation to prevent transgender person from participating in female athletics. The first state to do so. It also passed legislation to prevent transgender persons from changing the gender of their birth certificates. Two other states have passed similar legislation.

Idaho becomes first U.S. state to ban trans athletes

Merely a sad attempt at keeping Colin Kaepernick from getting signed again.

 

[Skwim]

It seems you are making this more complicated than need be. If someone has a puberty guided by estrogen, their body will basically be female regardlessof birth sex. It would be the opposite with testosterone.

If a body is basically female by what measure would it be male, as in "regardless of birth sex"?

Thus, if a MtF is on testosterone blockers soon enkugh to not have a male puberty, and instead develops more like a demand for to estrogen, they will not have the advantages of those who had a puberty guided by testosterone and then later went on estrogen and testosterone blockers.

It's still a moot issue because transgenderism is not brought on by a change in hormones, but by mental issues unrelated to one's balance of testosterone and estrogen.

Moreover, what doctor would be stupid enough to prescribe hormone change therapy to a prepubescent child?

.

 

[columbus]

It's still a moot issue because transgenderism is not brought on by a change in hormones, but by mental issues unrelated to one's balance of testosterone and estrogen.

The thing is,
for the vast majority of human endeavors gender needn't matter. From high office to peeing at a retail store, it just doesn't matter.

A few things it does, like sports based on physical power.
Tom

 

[Skwim]

The thing is,
for the vast majority of human endeavors gender needn't matter. From high office to peeing at a retail store, it just doesn't matter.

A few things it does, like sports based on physical power.
Tom

Exactly.

.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, you're oversimplifying this.
Not everything gender related is about hormones. And most transfolk don't don't transition before puberty.

Frankly, I oppose that, myself.

But I'm not in charge of other people's lives. I think sports organizations should decide their own rules themselves. Not be forced by the government or social media into a decision they consider unfair.
Just as I think that private entities like Target should decide their own restroom policies without government intervention.


But if 99% of female athletes don't want to compete with men or transwomen, why should they be required to do so? Similarly, I don't think that the NFL should be required to have female players.
Tom

I am merely pointing out facts of biology. When it comes to skeletal anatomy--and thus make benefits in sports--does entirely depend on hormones during puberty. Thus a blanket ban is unsuitable.

 

[Shaul]

Im pointing out that amidst a crisis being concerned about sports is a very trivial and insignificant thing, and enacting a law that will complicate certain things for people (such as getting a passport and traveling outside of America) at this time is spiteful.

Golly, it’s almost like you don’t read what I post. Allow me to reiterate. 1) This legislation was in the works before the coronavirus came about. 2) It would have been passed now regardless of whether the coronavirus ever happened. 3) It’s occurrence is independent of the coronavirus. 4) Life and all its aspects, trivial or serious, are still going on even now, including legislation. 5) That includes legislation you personally find objectionable.

That you think this is just a sports issue indicates you need to give this more thought. This law has quite little to do with passports or travel outside the U.S.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Golly, it’s almost like you don’t read what I post. Allow me to reiterate. 1) This legislation was in the works before the coronavirus came about. 2) It would have been passed now regardless of whether the coronavirus ever happened. 3) It’s occurrence is independent of the coronavirus. 4) Life and all its aspects, trivial or serious, are still going on even now, including legislation. 5) That includes legislation you personally find objectionable.

That you think this is just a sports issue indicates you need to give this more thought. This law has quite little to do with passports or travel outside the U.S.

Birth certificates have a lot to do with passports andtravel ohtside if America.

 

[Shaul]

Birth certificates have a lot to do with passports andtravel ohtside if America.

No, they don’t so much. An American passport is all that is required to travel to all but a small number of countries.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, they don’t so much. An American passport is all that is required to travel to all but a small number of countries.

Which goes by birth certificate and not necessarily regular forms of ID.

 

[Shaul]

Which goes by birth certificate and not necessarily regular forms of ID.

It is clear you don’t know what you are talking about. The Department of State guidelines are to put a person’s current gender on a passport. 8 FAM 403.3 GENDER CHANGE
A passport is the only document needed to travel to all but about six countries. No birth certificate required when traveling. Yes, a birth certificate is needed when applying for the passport, but not when using it while traveling. And, as I wrote above, the State Department will put the current gender, not the one as on the birth certificate, if requested.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is clear you don’t know what you are talking about. The Department of State guidelines are to put a person’s current gender on a passport. 8 FAM 403.3 GENDER CHANGE
A passport is the only document needed to travel to all but about six countries. No birth certificate required when traveling. Yes, a birth certificate is needed when applying for the passport, but not when using it while traveling. And, as I wrote above, the State Department will put the current gender, not the one as on the birth certificate, if requested.

You need a birth certificate to get a passport. This means someone whonis transgender and from Idaho, they will be forced to submit mis. atched documents.

 

[Shaul]

You need a birth certificate to get a passport. This means someone whonis transgender and from Idaho, they will be forced to submit mis. atched documents.

No, it doesn’t mean that at all. It means they would submit both the birth certificate and the documents related to their gender change. The same documents they would supply to get the birth certificate changed. There is no impediment. You keep trying to insist there is one when
there
is
none.

Read the link I already supplied to the Department of State on it. It is clear. Give it up. It is a non issue.

 

[Shad]

While I disagree with this, there are many advantages to male physiology, I'm in agreement with @Skwim. There's no reason for the government to get involved in private affairs. And they're really bad at it. Let the involved parties decide how to play.
Tom

Those organizations have dropped the ball a few times already.