ICSA article: Conflict and Control in the Baha'i community

[Vinayaka]

The problem with reviews on Faith is that it is flawed from the start.

A Metephor is needed.

Say we built the most perfect car, with all the best features, flawless in purpose and has a very detailed operators manual.

We then offer it to drivers or various skill levels, inform them it can only operate to its full potential when and only when the owners manual is read and fully understood. We hand them the keys and leave it up to them.

The reviews on the performance are then written by them.

So when we read a review from the drivers, it will only reflect their level of skill and commitment to understanding the owners manual.

So in that Metephor we have not proved that the Most perfect car with all the best features and comprehensive owners manual is the issue, we have identified that the person who did the review, fell short in their effort to read and understand the manual before they drove the car.

Regards Tony

And that's precisely why wisdom means reading many reviews, and considering the sources.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What you say does not address in any way the points raised in the article. The "key" to addressing the article is to take in what it says and then respond to that.

I read the Blog and it was apparent early on that the writer wanted a Faith that fitted her view of life, she had appreciated the world embracing aspects, but did not want to consider that administration is part of how that will work.

No Faith given by God works that way, one will not find the path will allow any motivation of self to be preferred above what was offered.

I can see that this seeker had not grasped the fundamental foundation of the Bahai Faith and that is the power of the Covenant. To answer what was written in detail would be immense, so I will do a short summary.

That Covenant started with the Bab and his Book the Bayan. The Bayan's last chapter was left unfinished, as the Bab said it was for Baha'u'llah to continue and complete.

Baha'u'llah gave a Covenant containing much guidance as to the future and that Abdul'baha would continue to give that guidance and in turn Abdu'lbaha gave a covernant that the Guardian and Universal House of Justice would continue and then the Guardian layed out the entire framework in great detail and the Administrative Order that would be the foundation of a New World Order.

So none of the Administration is Seperate from the Spiritual, both are needed to be embraced, embraced with the same attitude for the good of all humanity.

Lots could be said, but that is it in a nutshell.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that's precisely why wisdom means reading many reviews, and considering the sources.

Or as it is made available, do we get the owners Manual to see what the car was actually capable of?

That to me is what an independent search is all about, it is not about reading another person's review.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Or as it is made available, do we get the owners Manual to see what the car was actually capable of?

That to me is what independent search is about, it is not about reading another person's review.

Regards Tony

I test drive my cars. Do you? But it's pretty hard to test drive a hotel. Many reviews are written by previous owners.

In the case of ex - ________ s and religion, it's clear most of the folks did test drive. Even in the aforementioned article, the writer claims to have been a member for awhile. Whether or not to believe him/her is another matter. If you have a bad experience, and feel compelled to write about it, nobody is stopping you. Nobody is stopping anyone from reading all about it either.

Edited ... in the case of a car, and it's manual, that says absolutely nothing about reliability, which in my case is the number 1 aspect.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I test drive my cars. Do you? But it's pretty hard to test drive a hotel. Many reviews are written by previous owners.

In the case of ex - ________ s and religion, it's clear most of the folks did test drive. Even in the aforementioned article, the writer claims to have been a member for awhile. Whether or not to believe him/her is another matter. If you have a bad experience, and feel compelled to write about it, nobody is stopping you. Nobody is stopping anyone from reading all about it either.

Edited ... in the case of a car, and it's manual, that says absolutely nothing about reliability, which in my case is the number 1 aspect.

It was only a Metephor to explain how I see Faith works. Hotels do not work as that Metephor.

Before a test drive of a car, most likely nearly all people will not read the owners Manual, front to back or even understand all they have read. But If one liked the way it drove and purchased it, one may then read the entire manual, to understand how it all operates, to ensure they maintain it as required.

On the other hand one may have purchased the car but neglected an aspect that was an important part of the instructions, so when it fails, they blame the car, or the manufacturer or the one that sold it, even though adequate instructions were given.

Again, it is only a metephor of how I see Faith works and metephors have limitations.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

It was only a Metephor to explain how I see Faith works. Hotels do not work as that Metephor.

Before a test drive of a car, most likely nearly all people will not read the owners Manual, front to back or even understand all they have read. But If one liked the way it drove and purchased it, one may then read the entire manual, to understand how it all operates, to ensure they maintain it as required.

On the other hand one may have purchased the car but neglected an aspect that was an important part of the instructions, so when it fails, they blame the car, or the manufacturer or the one that sold it, even though adequate instructions were given.

Again, it is only a metephor of how I see Faith works and metephors have limitations.

Regards Tony

Okay ..... May I suggest you look up the meaning of 'metaphor'. It's not a catch-all for explaining anything.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay ..... May I suggest you look up the meaning of 'metaphor'. It's not a catch-all for explaining anything.

It seems it is what I was trying to do, that is "A metaphor is a figure of speech that, for rhetorical effect, directly refers to one thing by mentioning another. It may provide clarity or identify hidden similarities between two ideas.."

Its best we just let it go, as any point I was trying to make, has now well long been lost.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

So when we read a review from the drivers, it will only reflect their level of skill and commitment to understanding the owners manual.

I have a lemon to sell you, and any poor reviews you give it will only reflect your level of skill and commitment to understanding the owners manual.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have a lemon to sell you, and any poor reviews you give it will only reflect your level of skill and commitment to understanding the owners manual.

In the Metephor, the lemon is a direct result from an owner that never read the owners manual and implements what was required.

Also Luckily, in the Metephor, no one has to purchase 2nd hand.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

In the Metephor, the lemon is a direct result from an owner that never read the owners manual and implements what was required.

Also Luckily, in the Metephor, no one has to purchase 2nd hand.

Regards Tony

Nah, cars (as religions) can come off the showroom floor faulty due to poor design.

Manuals themselves can also be poorly designed.

But good designers can accept constructive criticism, which highlights the nature of the problem with allegedly "revealed" religions - they can't take constructive feedback because to do so would be to admit they weren't perfect to begin with.

And so, ironically the very claim to perfection is what hinders the pursuit of perfection.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nah, cars (as religions) can come off the showroom floor faulty due to poor design.

Manuals themselves can also be poorly designed.

But good designers can accept constructive criticism, which highlights the nature of the problem with allegedly "revealed" religions - they can't take constructive feedback because to do so would be to admit they weren't perfect to begin with.

And so, ironically the very claim to perfection is what hinders the pursuit of perfection.

The Metephor was not about cars that went through quality control and were discarded, or stolen to be resold on the black market.

It misses the intended meaning to look outside the Metephor.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

The Metephor was not about cars that went through quality control and were discarded, or stolen to be resold on the black market.

It misses the intended meaning to look outside the Metephor.

Regards Tony

I haven't got a clue what you are talking about Tony,

Let's start with a definition of a lemon;
'Informal. a person or thing that proves to be defective, imperfect, or unsatisfactory; dud:His car turned out to be a lemon.'

Source: Definition of lemon | Dictionary.com

A car does not have to be second hand to be a lemon, if the quality control process is imperfect (as it is in allegedly "revealed" religion where there literally is no quality control), then a car or religion can be defective brand new Tony.

No one is stepping outside the Metephor at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I haven't got a clue what you are talking about Tony,

Let's start with a definition of a lemon;
'Informal. a person or thing that proves to be defective, imperfect, or unsatisfactory; dud:His car turned out to be a lemon.'

Source: Definition of lemon | Dictionary.com

A car does not have to be second hand to be a lemon, if the quality control process is imperfect (as it is in allegedly "revealed" religion where there literally is no quality control), then a car or religion can be defective brand new Tony.

No one is stepping outside the Metephor at all.

The problem with reviews on Faith is that it is flawed from the start.

A Metephor is needed.

Say we built the most perfect car, with all the best features, flawless in purpose and has a very detailed operators manual.

We then offer it to drivers or various skill levels, inform them it can only operate to its full potential when and only when the owners manual is read and fully understood. We hand them the keys and leave it up to them.

The reviews on the performance are then written by them.

So when we read a review from the drivers, it will only reflect their level of skill and commitment to understanding the owners manual.

So in that Metephor we have not proved that the Most perfect car with all the best features and comprehensive owners manual is the issue, we have identified that the person who did the review, fell short in their effort to read and understand the manual before they drove the car.

Regards Tony

Indeed you have. That is what was posted.

I will leave it at that, but go further if you wish.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

While continuing to wade through the swamp I found something sounding more scientific, possibly explaining both the hurt feelings of former Baha’is that I found out about and the question why Baha’is were characterized as seemingly pedantic.

ICSA - Founded 1979 - Enemies Within - Conflict and Control in the Baha i Community

It’s from the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA), so make of it what you will, but I think it offers valuable insights, so check it out if you want to bother yourselves with what is given as reasons for the mindset of probably a lot of Baha’is. There’s really a load to read but the main argument seems to be this:





The author also mentions that the Baha’i members in poorly-functioning assemblies are told that things will get better in the future when the Faith has grown and better administrative structures are in place.



There’s certainly a lot more to discuss in the article than what I can mention now ... so please share your views.

My experience as a Bahá’í for 45 years is that I’m very happy, most privileged and honoured to be a member of this incredible Faith.

Are Baha’is perfect? Definitely not. And we are not Utopia either. All we are is a group of people who wish to see a better world.


We do struggle as much as anyone with our own faults, shortcomings and imperfections to be true Baha’is.

We believe very strongly in human dignity, and that people be treated with love and kindness. But we are far from perfect.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm the same ... no reason to agree or disagree, and yet, I've been accused of having an anti-Baha'i agenda on these forums. That's something you can look forward to for expressing neutrality.
"You're either with us, or agin us" ...

Before I joined the Baha’is 45 years ago, I definitely had an anti Bahá’í agenda. I was against anything to do with Prophets and a God I could see.

But I think having a questioning mind is a great asset in my case and in yours too. I see you as a person who doesn’t blindly believe but instead use your own mind.

We were given minds to learn and question and you do that.

 

[oldbadger]

I took this topic on in detail a few years back as it fascinated me from a psychological POV. Best wishes in your study. At this point, as I've been able to draw my own conclusions reading several sides of the story, and exploring in depth, I have little interest.

The Baha'is are by no means unique with regard to many of the behaviors mentioned in the article.

Hi..........
Yes..... I read the first sentence of the quoted report and left off there.
Double-think........ We've discussed various aspects of Bahai for a long time now so I don't think that the ICSA = International Cultic Studies Association has much to surprise us about. Luv the abbreviation!

If I was a Bahai I'd dive headlong in to ICSA and have a jolly good peekers around. What would interest me is who belongs to it and who does what. At least that would be more interesting than repeating the same old, same old all over again.

 

[oldbadger]

The Baha'is are by no means unique with regard to many of the behaviors mentioned in the article.

Hey, Vinayaha....! three minutes on jolly old google, and guess what......?
The ICSA (luv it) rubbishes Hinduism as well!

I do get interested in deep debate with Bahais when I think they are pushing their faith, but honestly, when a bunch of folks set on an agenda start spewing their much everywhere they do deserve to get placed under the magnifier (they ain't worth a microscope, honestly).

Right..... let's introduce the world briefly, very briefly, to the ICSA.

This is an association formed in 1979 called the American Family Foundation. What's that sound like to you folks, eh?
Anyway.... this foundation had connections to or with the Citizens’ Freedom Foundation (CFF) which later became the Cult Awareness Network (CAN).
How is this looking?

It also developed links with Evangelical Christian counter-cult movements such as the Christian Research Institute

Oh dear........ I mean..... this also seems to be connected to or with Republican groups of some kind. I can't be bothered going further, so let's look at it's President:-

President ICSA:
Steve K. D. Eichel, Ph.D., ABPP, CST.
You know...... you could have a field hour with all those qualifications. Where, How, What for, Who by etc. Anyway...... moving forward:-

Other religions get bricked as well:-
even mainstream organizations such as Buddhism, Evangelical Protestantism, Hinduism, and the Roman Catholic Church fall within the criteria.

So this bunch are p[robably Protestant of some kind. Yes?

Anyway, Doctor Eichel (see? I read that thread about Doctor Biden) is reported to say:-
Steve K. D. Eichel (formerly Steve Dubrow-Eichel) is a psychologist known primarily for his ... Every minute [of your life] must be Christ-centered, and that when you give yourself over to Jesus, you give yourself over to the ICC." In 2000, Eichel ...

 

[oldbadger]

The problem with reviews on Faith is that it is flawed from the start.

I expect that you're fast asleep. (it's noon in the UK)
This Association is Christian based, doesn't like Hindus or Catholics either...... or many others. Certainly wouldn't like scummy Deists.

It's President is connected to the 'ICC', which I think stands for:-

International Christian Concern

Tax ID no. International Christian Concern (ICC) is an ecumenical, non-governmental, non-partisan Christian organization, located in Washington, DC, whose concern is the human rights of Christians and religious minorities.


I do debate heavily and aggressively with Bahais Tony. I know that'll surprise you, but when dodgy organisations (imo) dig junk to feed their agenda, you gotta point out who they are.

 

[Vinayaka]

Hi..........
Yes..... I read the first sentence of the quoted report and left off there.
Double-think........ We've discussed various aspects of Bahai for a long time now so I don't think that the ICSA = International Cultic Studies Association has much to surprise us about. Luv the abbreviation!

If I was a Bahai I'd dive headlong in to ICSA and have a jolly good peekers around. What would interest me is who belongs to it and who does what. At least that would be more interesting than repeating the same old, same old all over again.

Aha, we meet again. Yes. So would I. I would also try my best to answer all questions headed my way rather than avoid them.

How far out of London are you?

 

[Jedster]

I haven't got a clue what you are talking about Tony,

Let's start with a definition of a lemon;
...

No one is stepping outside the Metephor at all.

PMFJI but,.....

Lets start with you and @Tony Bristow-Stagg learning that it is metaphor.