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I sin therefore I am?

SigurdReginson

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Hereashortwhileonly said:
It means, my friend, you would be an ungrateful person.
I don't say that as a moral swipe, but rather, gratitude is an aspect of the moral life, perhaps the first most important aspect, and if a person is unable - by the logic of their belief system - to say thank you! for breath, thank you! for existence, then he has no gratitude. And everything will proceed from there. To his parents - he may say, thank you! But his parents are cogs in the wheel of time - they have not created him as such - their actions, have led to his coming into the world - one in a series - so still the problem remains. If I cannot be thankful to a source for all, I cannot, in truth, be thankful.
That is what I believe. I will try and reflect on it for myself, because I am not without sin, and I am sorely in need of improvement in all aspects of my being. Thanks for the conversation.
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Hold on a moment... so by not believing in god, and by extension, not thanking a god I don't believe in, I'm an ungrateful person in general, by default? I certainly don't view my parents as cogs in the wheel of time.

More assumptions and judging... No dialogue or actual care for people, just preaching at them.

I don't understand how someone can judge things about the fiber of a person's character without getting to know them as people (well) first. These things you are assuming are actual elemental things about a person's character, and I'm not sure you recognize that... o_O

"If I cannot be thankful to a source for all, I cannot, in truth, be thankful.
That is what I believe."

Well, if that's what you believe, then that only applies to you. Why apply it to people you don't really know, too?... You do know that everyone looks at the world and sees and experiences it in a different way, right?
 
H

Hereashortwhileonly

Member
Nakosis said:
Sin is disobeying God.
Do you feel it is necessary to disobey God to know God?
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I think the first step is to say whether morality has any foundation beyond social and individual expediency. If we affirm it does, I call that sin. And that means acknowledgement of God.

This is one way to an awareness that God is necessary.

If one wants to say that morality has no foundation, then he is entitled to that belief, but I think it will be inconsistent with his nature.
 
H

Hereashortwhileonly

Member
SigurdReginson said:
Hold on a moment... so by not believing in god, and by extension, not thanking a god I don't believe in, I'm an ungrateful person in general, by default? I certainly don't view my parents as cogs in the wheel of time.

More assumptions and judging... No dialogue or actual care for people, just preaching at them.

I don't understand how someone can judge things about the fiber of a person's character without getting to know them as people (well) first. These things you are assuming are actual elemental things about a person's character, and I'm not sure you recognize that... o_O

"If I cannot be thankful to a source for all, I cannot, in truth, be thankful.
That is what I believe."

Well, if that's what you believe, then that only applies to you. Why apply it to people you don't really know, too?... You do know that everyone looks at the world and sees and experiences it in a different way, right?
Click to expand...

Hi, I actually edited my reply, to flesh out the argument I am making.

You are right, friend, I am not, in this discussion, personally interested in the intracies of what you believe. I am interested in where you stand on the specific question.

You have indicated you disbelieve in God. I am drawing out the logical consequences of this. You don't accept those consequences - you still want to affirm morality.

This only proves my point. You want the benefits of belief - because man, in fact, can't live without God - but have accepted the teaching of your social environment, which has lied to you.
 
SigurdReginson

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Hereashortwhileonly said:
Hi, I actually edited my reply, to flesh out the argument I am making.

You are right, friend, I am not, in this discussion, personally interested in the intracies of what you believe. I am interested in where you stand on the specific question.

You have indicated you disbelieve in God. I am drawing out the logical consequences of this. You don't accept those consequences - you still want to affirm morality.

This only proves my point. You want the benefits of belief - because man, in fact, can't live without God - but have accepted the teaching of your social environment, which has lied to you.
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Ok... Sure. Let's go with that. o_O

I mean, it seems like you already have your answers. I'm not here to argue anything, though... Just observing and pointing out the things I'm noticing.

I mean, you can tell me the life I've come to live is a lie all you want, but the quality of life and my happiness as a whole that I experience now is a beautiful thing compared to the lifeless theological burden I felt as a believer in my previous religion.

Your path may be a good path for you to live, but it seems like it's not a healthy path for me. :D
 
H

Hereashortwhileonly

Member
SigurdReginson said:
Ok... Sure. Let's go with that. o_O

I mean, it seems like you already have your answers. I'm not here to argue anything, though... Just observing and pointing out the things I'm noticing.

I mean, you can tell me the life I've come to live is a lie all you want, but the quality of life and my happiness as a whole that I experience now is a beautiful thing compared to the lifeless theological burden I felt as a believer in my previous religion.

Your path may be a good path for you to live, but it seems like it's not a healthy path for me. :D
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No problem I'm not asking you to follow my path.
If you felt that life as a believer was a lifeless theological burden, then I can understand you may feel a sense of liberation.
I often sense that people who come from a background of religion have stored up a certain amount of spirtual food, which they can survive on for a certain amount of time.
The same is true of our society in general, in the west. We are still living off the time when people used to go to Church on a Sunday, sin was known about, and morality had solid foundation, and all our laws were built. But this only lasts for so long, and the emptiness of the situation becomes manifest.
I don't hope that for you, I hope that your path is fruitful.

On the question I asked, do you have a soul?
 
SigurdReginson

SigurdReginson

Grēne Mann
Premium Member
Hereashortwhileonly said:
I agree, thank you for the affirmation.

So do your parents have souls?
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I don't know... Which souls are we talking? The Norse pagan souls that comprise of many individual parts? From what I understand, some Hindu paths view the soul as one small slice of Brahman. In some denominations of Christianity it's intrinsically tied to us as people, and we are given a spiritual body to house it upon death.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Hereashortwhileonly said:
I think the first step is to say whether morality has any foundation beyond social and individual expediency. If we affirm it does, I call that sin. And that means acknowledgement of God.

This is one way to an awareness that God is necessary.

If one wants to say that morality has no foundation, then he is entitled to that belief, but I think it will be inconsistent with his nature.
Click to expand...

Honestly, from reading the Old Testament, sin has a specific definition.
I'll admit though, what Jesus meant by sin seems less clear.
 
Link

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hereashortwhileonly said:
Is recognition of sin the essential dividing line between believers and non-believers?

Every person - except for a particular class of psychopath, perhaps - will have some idea of right and wrong. Therefore, this awareness is fundamental to the human being.

The awareness of God by contrast is not *necessarily* fundamental - in the sense that sometimes people will have such awareness, and sometimes not.

Recognition of sin is, implicitly, a recognition of God. Therefore, someone who recognises the reality of sin, is recognising God. He is a believer.

Someone who doesn't recognise sin, doesn't recognise God. He is a disbeliever.

Why is this important?

Because knowing what sin is doesn't require a leap of faith or seeking to the know the unseen. We all have this sense of right and wrong. Is that sense connected to something actual or not - isn't this the most essential question?
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Sins are forgiven for evil and good alike, God tests us with sins, to see if they destroy our faith and love in him. And when people let sins darken their heart to the extent they envy the light and seek to oppress the believers in it and are at war with God's chosen, then they really gave in to evil didn't they?

Forgiveness has two words in Arabic, one of them is about God protecting the believers from their sins, istikhfaar, and the other, is about God erasing or making it disappear (Aafoo).

God although does both, never forgets our sins and they are forever regretted. They have permanent effect in the sense, God doesn't forget it, does he now and it effects our relationship with him whether he protects us or erases it's effects, we still did it.

It's a sad state when a believer continues to sin big sins and God keeps protecting and erasing, till, the frequency of evil deeds becomes too much and it destroys the light all together.

Sins are not easily to be taken for granted, and Michael is trying his best with Angels under him, to help all humans overcome their evil sins and protect through God's compassion against them but we got to help Michael and Angels under him a little bit, we got to help also the witness and Guide who Michael is under and who all Angels are under, pull us to God.

If we run away from God our whole lives and turn away from the door of his light, who can we blame but ourselves at the end?
 
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