I sin therefore I am?

[Hereashortwhileonly]

The Euthyphro dillema presents a challenge to any notion of objective right and wrong or at least objective right and wrong with God as its foundation.

Thanks, I hadn't heard of this Euthyphro dilema before.

So is the good good because God has willed it, or does God will the good because it is good? It seems to ask whether goodness preceeds God, which as He is the originator of all, would be a logical impossibility.

I believe that God is synonomous with The Good, so that to do good, is to come near to Him. How do we know what is good?

We have our basic, God-given intuition, and we have revealed scripture through prophets.
The intuition is important, for this is the means by which we can recognise God through His revelations. If the revelations jarred with our intuitions, they wouldn't be accepted, and we would have no way of drawing closer to Him.

If a person rejects God, he can still play out the moral life through his God-given intuition, but he is cut-off from his own reality and the reality of God. In essence he is cut of from The Good, such that his actions would be denied moral character - though he still continues to call it moral.

Today, we have all sorts of attempts to buffer up morality - science, reason, democracy - but it still just comes down to the common sense. People have a common sense understanding of what's right and wrong, a basic intuition.

This is the same as the intuition of the existence of God.

Edit: I am aware that the logic of my position can come across as extreme. I.e. if you don't accept God, then it's impossible to do good. I'm open to the possibility that the reality of life is more nuanced than this, and I don't mean to dehumanise anyone. I'm merely seeking to bring out the logical conclusions of disbelief, and seeing how they conflict with reality, because in this conflict, one can perceive that there is something essentially at odds. And this goes to the heart of my argument in this thread:

Sin is a reality. People are denying that reality, while at the same time not accepting the consequences of their denial. In essence, they still believe in the reality of sin. Why? Because it's a reality! Only one they are clouded to.

We are all in condition of ignorance to one degree or another. May our way be lighted.

My thought began with the saying of Jesus in the Gospel of John: He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone!

Most people today in the West agree with this sentiment, above all else, and actually use it to attack religion - basically that the religious are hypocrites, and there is no moral authority to be claimed. But this confuses the truth of the saying, which is that only God is Good, and sin is the reality of human beings.

But the people who deny God, or deny the reality of sin, are essentially claiming, I am without sin. What a thing to claim! And in that case, they are given license to make all sorts of judgement about anybody - and they would not be committing any kind of sin! (Wrong.)

For instance, if you affirm the reality of sin, then hypocrisy is at least possible. You are affirming that there is (genuinly) right and wrong, you may affirm that some act is wrong, but you may also be guilty of the same.

By contrast, the one without sin, is never a hypocrite, because hypocrisy itself is impossible! All there is, in this very bleak vision, is power.

It's wrong because I say it's wrong and you should do what I say, because I say it. This is in practice what morality would look like, without God - for all we may give it another name - science, reason, being nice - so on and so on.

~There are people who live out this reality, and they are called psychopaths! Joseph Stalin comes to mind.

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

Sins are forgiven for evil and good alike, God tests us with sins, to see if they destroy our faith and love in him.

So when we sin, is our own action a test from God? Or is the possibility of our sinning the test?

 

[Link]

He allows us sometimes, Michael and Gabriel and Angels under him act according to the house of their time, the family of Mohammad currently. And they act according to God's commands, and so, sometimes, God says, no don't protect him here, and see if they give in to evil. But if we say "I seek refuge in God from the Satan the rebellious", God then protects us usually by creating leaf/clothes/armor of light and sometimes even arrows of light to attack back with.

 

[Link]

So God wants us to pray and have some effort to.

 

[Link]

If we ask for protection, God usually does it and if we ask him to cleanse us from our sins, he usually does it. There are some conditions of prayer being accepted, but to guarantee it, it's best to combine our prayer with God with seeking intercession of Ahlulbayt (a) of our time.

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

If we ask for protection, God usually does it and if we ask him to cleanse us from our sins, he usually does it. There are some conditions of prayer being accepted, but to guarantee it, it's best to combine our prayer with God with seeking intercession of Ahlulbayt (a) of our time.

What's the basis for requiring the intercession?

 

[Link]

What's the basis for requiring the intercession?

Their prayers are based on concrete knowledge of our state, and if we acknowledge their high station with God and they advocate for us, it helps. But we should pray to God as well. It's not one or the other.

 

[Link]

They continuously pray for us anyways, but us acknowledging it helps us with our position with God and them and God's pleasure and their pleasure is one.

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

Their prayers are based on concrete knowledge of our state.

Does that mean that our prayers are more or less effective depending on how aware we are of our own condition also? I.e. I might pray for forgiveness for my sins, but if I don't know how sinful my condition really is, the prayer will be less acceptable?

 

[Link]

Yes. Definitely. God responds but we have to respond to.

Prayer is like a bow, we are the arrow, if we don't put ourselves on the bow and refuse to fly and be shot by the prayer, it's not effective at all.

 

[Link]

A lot of people pray Surah Fatiha (first chapter of Quran), but not everyone believes in it and acts according to it. This is why it's not effective for many.

 

[Link]

If you wish to wash your sins, you going have to let the waters of regret in. If you want God to protect you from your sins, acknowledge his protectors (Ahlulbayt, Prophets, Saints, Angels) and let them in your soul and witness them protect you. If you wish God to erase your sins, let the forces of God blot out the dark living sins in our souls that take on forms and attack the features of light in our soul.

Witness the malakut (true kingdom) of the universe, all through looking within.

You can't defeat Iblis and his armies going in blind.

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

If you wish to wash your sins, you going have to let the waters of regret in. If you want God to protect you from your sins, acknowledge his protectors (Ahlulbayt, Prophets, Saints, Angels) and let them in your soul and witness them protect you. If you wish God to erase your sins, let the forces of God blot out the dark living sins in our souls that take on forms and attack the features of light in our soul.

Witness the malakut (true kingdom) of the universe, all through looking within.

You can't defeat Iblis and his armies going in blind.

Do you see the human being as a battle ground for these invisible forces? The angels and shaytans?

 

[Link]

Do you see the human being as a battle ground for these invisible forces? The angels and shaytans?

Yes.

 

[Hereashortwhileonly]

Yes.

How do you make sense of reality, when if that is the reality, it is never described as such in day to day life?

What do I see? I see a person talking and acting, and I make sense of this according to them being an individual in the world with a particular view and a particular self-interest.

 

[Link]

How do you make sense of reality, when if that is the reality, it is never described as such in day to day life?

What do I see? I see a person talking and acting, and I make sense of this according to them being an individual in the world with a particular view and a particular self-interest.

As for me I believe, I witness this battle constantly, all you have to do is look within yourself to see the inward kingdom and Angels are trying to get us from darkness to the light and pull us out of our darkness of sins, and with repentance, they can do it fast and the journey is short for those who wish to travel to God.

 

[Link]

Also, when you become rational and speak words of light, you will see the hatred of darkness and how the drones of Iblis mock the truth as was done with all Messengers.

You can witness the spell of Iblis and his dark magic on humanity through many avenues. One avenue is the Quran, how clear it is, yet how unclear it is in majority of minds and hearts.

And you can witness how the ahadith of the tree of life/knowledge are a healing to the nations and heals the dark magic and clarifies the Quran and turns into a clearer book. The the more knowledge you gain of it the clearer it gets and becomes vividly clear.

To me, Satan is a manifest enemy, just as the son of Hassan Al-askari (a) is a manifest leader and guide to God.

 

[Bird123]

Do you think right and wrong have any foundation beyond expediency (individual or social)?
If so, what is it?

In this time-based causal universe, we are all Living our Lessons. We are learning what the Best choices really are.

Freedom to choose is a very important part of the system. If one is not free to choose, one will choose the opposite as soon as one is free in order to discover why one was restricted. With this in mind, choices from all sides must be available.

One makes a choice. Through the time-based causal nature of the universe, we Discover how that choice turned out. Further, God returns our actions so that we might understand what our choices and actions really mean. When one Understands all sides, Intelligence will pick the best choices.

No one gets good without the bad choices. They are made to teach what not to do. This is learning at it's best. It's far better than any words or books could teach.

God returns all our choices, not just the bad choices. In time, this teaches everyone to Love Unconditionally, after all, Unconditional Love is what everyone wants returning.

I've seen it all over the world. Label this good that bad or evil. How does one really draw the line between the two? Some say leave that up to God. On the other hand, everyone underestimates how smart God really is. Since, in time, everyone will learn and choose the best choices, there is no need to define good and bad at all. Each will decide for themselves when it returns. In time, Intelligence will pick the Best choices. It's so simple yet so much Genius behind it.

Control is one of the petty things that mankind holds so dear. Couple that with judging, blaming, condemning, revenge, wanting payback and hating when others are not controlled so easily and you see that which exists all around. People have not yet Discovered what all those petty things really are and how they do not make life better for anyone.

In a multilevel classroom, one will see others learning lessons one has already learned. Is this an excuse to hate them, be mean to them? Maybe it's really time Love them Unconditionally. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Don't Hate. Teach them. Guide them through those lessons you have already learned. Guide them to the Greatness they are to become with enough knowledge. Copy God. Place the knowledge all around them, however, in the end, they must choose for themselves. No one can take another person's journey for them. You might not be able to change them, however you might make it possible for someone else down the line to shine the light in their eyes.

The dynamics of this world are amazing. The mosaic of all God's children interacting through the infinite number of variables leading us all forward, ever forward is simply amazing. This world is truly a Masterpiece to behold.

There was this really religious lady. Her pastor was trying to control her. He would tell her those he thought were evil then stayed on her not to interact with them at all. Little to say, this lady lived a very limited life.

The pastor would tell her those evil people would make her evil. The lady went around afraid of most everyone. Well, sometimes, I just must stick my nose into it. I asked: How can evil people ever know what good is if no one ever interacts with them? It makes it a long hard road. Further, she was judging others based on the beliefs of a pastor. Needless to say that created lots of thinking and lots of changes.

A wise old man told me one time. Never judge others for you never know what you might do if you were in the same shoes. I add to that share that which is special about yourself with others and do your best to Help not hurt.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[wellwisher]

Is recognition of sin the essential dividing line between believers and non-believers?

Every person - except for a particular class of psychopath, perhaps - will have some idea of right and wrong. Therefore, this awareness is fundamental to the human being.

The awareness of God by contrast is not *necessarily* fundamental - in the sense that sometimes people will have such awareness, and sometimes not.

Recognition of sin is, implicitly, a recognition of God. Therefore, someone who recognises the reality of sin, is recognising God. He is a believer.

Someone who doesn't recognise sin, doesn't recognise God. He is a disbeliever.

Why is this important?

Because knowing what sin is doesn't require a leap of faith or seeking to the know the unseen. We all have this sense of right and wrong. Is that sense connected to something actual or not - isn't this the most essential question?

If you look at a concept like good and evil, the world so broken down into a 2-D grid of (x=good,y=evil), which is the same grid used for cause and affect. Cause and affect is also 2-D. In terms of the brain, this is the left hemisphere of the brain; rational brain. As odd as it sounds, knowledge of good and evil helped humans to develop the left brain so they could become rational. Both use the same neural grid. I sin therefore I am is a rational assessment based on conventional data.

The right brain is more spatial or 3-D. Good and evil is only 2-D and is therefore not processed in the right brain, since good and evil lacks the extra dimension or the extra z-axis.

In legal cases of murder, premeditated murder is based on 2-D and reasoning. But crimes of passion is more emotional and is based on the right brain and a spontaneous 3-D thought process, that is beyond 2-D of cause and affect. This extra z-axis cut more slack. However, this type of thought processing is less understood.

The symbolism of Jesus dying on the cross, has Jesus placed between the two thieves, for a total of three dimensions. This is right brain symbolism. The two thieves are the concept of good and evil, with Jesus the spontaneous part of the right brain that adds something extra; 3-D, through faith. When Jesus did away with the law. he signaled it was time to return to 3-D, beyond cause and affect. Or migrate consciousness from the left to the right brain.

What 3-D thinking does is add an extra dimension to cause and affect; effect, cause and affect, cause and affect, cause. It anticipates both before and after the immediate decision of good and evil, so on can sense the longer term impact of what often appears to be rational decisions.

For example, if you see a piece of cake on the counter, I may reason this will be good to eat. That is rational based on a cause and affect of taste and satisfaction. But in 3-D world, one goes further into the precursors and future implications of this temporal causal action. It may break my diet steal the cake from another. The charisma of faith; 3-D, may require decisions that make no rational sense in a temporal view of 2-D reason. But these are designed with extended implications in mind that are not yet part of the conscious past or future.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is recognition of sin the essential dividing line between believers and non-believers?

Every person - except for a particular class of psychopath, perhaps - will have some idea of right and wrong. Therefore, this awareness is fundamental to the human being.

The awareness of God by contrast is not *necessarily* fundamental - in the sense that sometimes people will have such awareness, and sometimes not.

Recognition of sin is, implicitly, a recognition of God. Therefore, someone who recognises the reality of sin, is recognising God. He is a believer.

Someone who doesn't recognise sin, doesn't recognise God. He is a disbeliever.

Why is this important?

Because knowing what sin is doesn't require a leap of faith or seeking to the know the unseen. We all have this sense of right and wrong. Is that sense connected to something actual or not - isn't this the most essential question?

Wouldn't this only be appropriate to believers?

What does this mean for a nonbeliever in her point of view?

Sin isn't a universal word, so it would make sense to apply it to those who believe.