I see no value in atheism

[ArtieE]

People can be undecided about god,

In which case he doesn't believe in god and so is an atheist.

But the atheist is the person who doesn't believe in god.

100% correct. A person who is undecided about god also doesn't believe in god.

 

[Willamena]

If you just say "I don't believe in god" to a theist and mean exactly that you have nothing to prove. You are saying that you are just not a theist. But if you say "I believe god doesn't exist" then you have a belief to defend and he might ask you "Yeah, and why not? Why don't you believe god doesn't exist?" because then you have taken a position.

No, Artie. If I say, "I don't believe in god," I'm saying atheism.

I've nothing to prove because it's not about proving anything.

What I'm saying, that I don't believe in gods, is about me. It's not about god at all. God is just the topic.

 

[leibowde84]

I would say knowledge, not necessarily belief. I do not believe that gravity is always attractive, I know it, even though my knowledge could still be false.

So, I believe (or is it know?) that beiefs are waeker than knowledge. And I think it is sensible to call belief a not yet acquired knowledge, mainly for lack of the evidence necessary for its promotion.

Ciao

- viole

Knowledge: "facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject."

Beliefs: "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists."

Thus, "knowledge" (information acquired by a person through experience or education) is simply "belief" (an acceptance that something exists or is true) that something is true based on objective evidence. There is no required certainty, as that would be an impossible achievement.

 

[ArtieE]

No you don't. It is impossible to prove that something doesn't exist.

It is actually very easy to prove the Christian God in the Bible can't exist. The Bible says he is omnipotent, yet he can't defeat iron chariots. The Bible says He can't be seen, yet the Bible tells numerous stories about people who have seen Him. Such a god can't logically exist. But I won't derail the thread.

 

[leibowde84]

I'm drawing a picture (scribble, scribble), and I hold it up. It's a picture of "belief in god/gods," and let's pretend for a moment that you get that. You see it in that picture.

Now I'm going to try drawing another picture of "I believe in god/gods." I can't. It's something people do, not something that exists in the world. I have no means of putting it in image, other than holding up that same picture I drew earlier of "belief in god/gods." That's because this "I" thing isn't real (but that's another story). It doesn't actually differ from whatever it applies itself to.

We do, however, delight in framing the former in terms of the latter in language. And we're very good at it.

The theist is just a wordy frame for theism, and the atheist a frame for atheism.

I understand. It doesn't matter to me whether we are discussing atheism or atheists. The same issue arises. "Atheism" is simply the lack of belief in god or gods in its general form. You seem to be attempting to change that meaning.

 

[ArtieE]

No, Artie. If I say, "I don't believe in god," I'm saying atheism.

Yes you are.

I've nothing to prove because it's not about proving anything.

Correct. A weak atheist doesn't have to provide evidence for his beliefs simply because he doesn't have any beliefs to defend. On the other hand, a strong atheist who says he believes gods don't exist must be prepared to provide evidence for his beliefs.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes you are.Correct. A weak atheist doesn't have to provide evidence for his beliefs simply because he doesn't have any beliefs to defend. On the other hand, a strong atheist who says he believes gods don't exist must be prepared to provide evidence for his beliefs.

How can one prove that God doesn't exist. God is a very vague term.

 

[Willamena]

The same issue arises.

Indeed. As I said earlier, pointing at dictionaries won't help.

 

[leibowde84]

Indeed. As I said earlier, pointing at dictionaries won't help.

So, you are saying that we all just get to make up our own definitions of terms? That is just straight chaos, which underminds communication in general. There has to be accepted definitions of terms, right?

 

[Willamena]

In which case he doesn't believe in god and so is an atheist.100% correct. A person who is undecided about god also doesn't believe in god.

As long as you continue to read, "don't believe," as the negation or elimination of belief, rather than the negation of the belief, we will continue to butt heads.

 

[Willamena]

So, you are saying that we all just get to make up our own definitions of terms? That is just straight chaos, which underminds communication in general. There has to be accepted definitions of terms, right?

No. (Tip: any sentence that beings with, "So you're saying..." will be automatically wrong. I found that out years ago on the Internets. )

 

[Wirey]

How can one prove that God doesn't exist. God is a very vague term.

Easy:

Mark David Chapman fired six shots. John Lennon dropped dead. Yoko Ono didn't have a scratch on her. There is no God.

 

[leibowde84]

No. (Tip: any sentence that beings with, "So you're saying..." will be automatically wrong. I found that out years ago on the Internets. )

Ok. I feel like I'm pulling teeth here. What are you saying if you are not saying that we don't get to just make up our own definitions for terms instead of going by accepted definitions in dictionaries? Can you elaborate instead of just providing a snarky response?

 

[leibowde84]

As long as you continue to read, "don't believe," as the negation or elimination of belief, rather than the negation of the belief, we will continue to butt heads.

So, are you saying that the statement "I don't believe in God" is equivalent to saying "I believe that God does not exist"? And, please explain why I am wrong if I am this time.

Btw, this cannot be the case, because one can also say "I do not believe that God exists, but I also do not believe that God does not exist". In short, those that don't hold a belief either way can say both of these statements accurately.

 

[ArtieE]

How can one prove that God doesn't exist. God is a very vague term.

You can logically prove the Biblical God can't exist by citing all the contradictory statements about Him in the Bible. It doesn't matter how many books you write about a bachelor describing his marriage in excruciating detail. A married bachelor doesn't exist.

 

[Nakosis]

Depends what your understanding of the reality represented by the concept of God is...what is your understanding?

The existence of a deity or separate independent being which controls, influences or otherwise acts on the universe or holds supreme authority over any aspect of reality does not exist.

There is only one consciousness which we all share and the existence of separate independent beings is an illusion. The experience of a God or Gods which exists separate from ourselves can be a real subjective experience. However the experience of all beings existing separate from ourselves remains an illusion even to the experience of a God or Devil.

 

[Willamena]

Ok. I feel like I'm pulling teeth here. What are you saying if you are not saying that we don't get to just make up our own definitions for terms instead of going by accepted definitions in dictionaries? Can you elaborate instead of just providing a snarky response?

I'll try once more.

The belief of the theist is, "God exists or is real," or alternately, "There is a god."

To negate that belief is, "There isn't a god."

To hold "I don't believe in god" to mean the person who hasn't thought about god or hasn't been introduced to the concept of god or is undecided about whether there is a god is to negate or eliminate the act of belief, rather than negate that particular thing that is believed.

 

[ArtieE]

As long as you continue to read, "don't believe," as the negation or elimination of belief, rather than the negation of the belief, we will continue to butt heads.

Think of a pendulum clock: All the way to the left is theism (belief gods exist), straight down "weak atheists" no beliefs either way, all the way to the right is "strong atheism" (belief gods don't exist). What would it take for you to understand that there is a pendulum position "straight down" where the pendulum is at rest and that force would be required to push the pendulum in either direction?

 

[Willamena]

Think of a pendulum clock: All the way to the left is theism (belief gods exist), straight down "weak atheists" no beliefs either way, all the way to the right is "strong atheism" (belief gods don't exist). What would it take for you to understand that there is a pendulum position "straight down" where the pendulum is at rest and that force would be required to push the pendulum in either direction?

I'm fine with the pendulum image, Artie, it's just that there's theism on one end and atheism on the other, and undecided in the middle.

To hold "anything but the far left" as atheism would be to negate "the theist," rather than negate what the theist believes.

 

[ArtieE]

I'll try once more.

The belief of the theist is, "God exists or is real," or alternately, "There is a god."

To negate that belief is, "There isn't a god."

To hold "I don't believe in god" to mean the person who hasn't thought about god or hasn't been introduced to the concept of god or is undecided about whether there is a god is to negate or eliminate the act of belief, rather than negate that particular thing that is believed.

I don't get the point.

1. There is a god.
2. I don't say there is a god nor do I say there is no god.
3. There is no god.