I see no value in atheism

[leibowde84]

If you see a UFO in the sky you have no way of knowing if there actually is a UFO in the sky or if it's all in your mind but you might believe there is a UFO in the sky. If it is confirmed by instruments or independent witnesses then everybody knows there's a UFO in the sky.

Even if confirmed, as you say, there is always room for error. Even with scientific theories that have been demonstrated with repeated experimentation and observation, there is still the chance that they could be inaccurate. Thus, they is still an aspect of belief.

 

[Willamena]

...

Some atheists ("weak atheists" or "agnostics") simply lack a belief in God. They do not actively believe that God does not exist. They don't have a belief either way. Honestly, I think this is the most reasonable position to hold.

As long as the topic of "having no belief either way" is still god, it's all good. I personally wouldn't call that person an atheist, but simply undecided. But that's just me.

 

[leibowde84]

...

As long as the topic of "having no belief either way" is still god, it's all good. I wouldn't call that person an atheist, but simply undecided.

You are free to not identify them, as that is your perogative. But, according to the definition of the term, those that "have no belief either way" still "lack belief in God" and can still accurately be identified as "atheist".

 

[ArtieE]

Hmm. I suppose one can be agnostic toward gnosticism, if you'll pardon the word salad. Strong and weak agnostics? Is the additional clarification necessary or prudent? I'll have to give it some thought, admittedly.

Gnosticism and agnosticism has changed meanings up through the years. The current mostly used meaning of "gnostic" is a person who knows and an "agnostic" is a person who doesn't know. Check wikipedia for different meanings.

 

[Willamena]

You are free to not identify them, as that is your perogative. But, according to the definition of the term, those that "have no belief either way" still "lack belief in God" and can still accurately be identified as "atheist".

You are free to identify them as atheist, as that is your perogative. But according to my dictionary, the atheist is the one who doesn't believe in god.

Edit: The significant difference between the two uses for the word seems to be how it's defined: one holds "atheist" to be "not the theist," and the other to be "the subject of atheism." I prefer the latter, as it's base English.

 

[leibowde84]

You are free to identify them as atheist, as that is your perogative. But according to my dictionary, the atheist is the one who doesn't believe in god.

Edit: The significant difference between the two uses for the word seems to be how it's defined: one holds "atheist" to be "not the theist," and the other to be "the subject of atheism." I prefer the latter, as it's base English.

I am using multiple English Language Dictionaries to define the term. They all say this, more or less (these are from Dictionary.com):

Atheist: A person who does not believe in god or gods.
Theist: A person who believes in the existence of a god or gods.

Can you provide where you are getting your definition from with a link so I can check it out. I am only after the correct usage of the word in english as well. Obviously, we have to use the most inclusive definition, as we are discussing who can accurately be identified as either theist or atheist. As long as a person fits into the most inclusive definition, they can accurately be identified as such.

 

[Willamena]

When I say, "I don't believe in god," I say it in the same vein as, "I don't believe in Bigfoot," or, "I don't believe in fairies." I don't mean that they might exist; rather, I don't allow for their existence at all. That's strong and implicit, and where the topic is god, it's strong and implicit atheism. It expresses my belief, my opinion, with no ambiguity.

The person who, by whatever logic, may allow the possibility that these things exist, doesn't fit that idea.

Edit: Explicit, not implicit. Sorry, I should have proof read better, but I'm busy offline.

 

[leibowde84]

When I say, "I don't believe in god," I say it in the same vein as, "I don't believe in Bigfoot," or, "I don't believe in fairies." I don't mean that they might exist; rather, I don't allow for their existence at all. That's strong and implicit, and where the topic is god, it's strong and implicit atheism. It expresses my belief, my opinion, with no ambiguity.

The person who, by whatever logic, may allow the possibility that these things exist, doesn't fit that idea.

Sure, but both would accurately be classified as "atheist", right? When I say that "I don't believe in Big Foot", I am merely saying that I have not been presented with enough evidence to positively believe in the "missing link". But, I also do not have enough evidence to believe that it is impossible for Big Foot to exist. Thus, my beliefs on Big Foot are both atheistic and agnostic.

 

[leibowde84]

When I say, "I don't believe in god," I say it in the same vein as, "I don't believe in Bigfoot," or, "I don't believe in fairies." I don't mean that they might exist; rather, I don't allow for their existence at all. That's strong and implicit, and where the topic is god, it's strong and implicit atheism. It expresses my belief, my opinion, with no ambiguity.

The person who, by whatever logic, may allow the possibility that these things exist, doesn't fit that idea.

Can I get that link to your definition of the term "atheist" though? Thanks.

 

[Willamena]

I am using multiple English Language Dictionaries to define the term. They all say this, more or less (these are from Dictionary.com):

Atheist: A person who does not believe in god or gods.
Theist: A person who believes in the existence of a god or gods.

Can you provide where you are getting your definition from with a link so I can check it out. I am only after the correct usage of the word in english as well. Obviously, we have to use the most inclusive definition, as we are discussing who can accurately be identified as either theist or atheist. As long as a person fits into the most inclusive definition, they can accurately be identified as such.

We can point at dictionaries all we like, but I'll still read it as I will and you'll still read it as you will. "Theism" is something, it's "belief in god," and "atheism" is its negation. The "theist" is the person practicing theism, and the "atheist" the person practicing atheism. And just like someone can be the conservative (the person practicing conservatism) or the liberal (the person practicing liberalism) or undecided, a person can be theist, atheist, or undecided.

 

[Willamena]

Can I get that link to your definition of the term "atheist" though? Thanks.

A lot of good it will do...
atheist - definition of atheist in English from the Oxford dictionary

 

[Willamena]

Sure, but both would accurately be classified as "atheist", right? When I say that "I don't believe in Big Foot", I am merely saying that I have not been presented with enough evidence to positively believe in the "missing link". But, I also do not have enough evidence to believe that it is impossible for Big Foot to exist. Thus, my beliefs on Big Foot are both atheistic and agnostic.

People can be undecided about god, they can be ignorant of god, and they can be open to the idea of god. But the atheist is the person who doesn't believe in god.

Those things can overlap, but only one of them is the atheist.

 

[ArtieE]

You are free to identify them as atheist, as that is your perogative. But according to my dictionary, the atheist is the one who doesn't believe in god.

Yes, then your dictionary is correct. An "atheist" is a person who doesn't believe in god(s). A "strong atheist" is a person who believes gods don't exist.

Edit: The significant difference between the two uses for the word seems to be how it's defined: one holds "atheist" to be "not the theist," and the other to be "the subject of atheism." I prefer the latter, as it's base English.

Actually, the prefix -a means literally "not, without". A-theist. Not theist. In order to change the meaning of "atheist" you would have to change the meaning of the prefix -a or the meaning of "theist".

 

[leibowde84]

A lot of good it will do...
atheist - definition of atheist in English from the Oxford dictionary

But, your cited definition helps to prove my point. According to it, all that is required for "atheist" is a LACK OF BELIEF IN GOD OR GODS. There is no requirement for an active belief that God does not exist. Those that are undecided are still included in the definition.

 

[leibowde84]

People can be undecided about god, they can be ignorant of god, and they can be open to the idea of god. But the atheist is the person who doesn't believe in god.

Those things can overlap, but only one of them is the atheist.

Right. All I am saying is that agnostics "don't believe in God", and, thus, can be classified as "atheists". Here is the definition you provided:

Definition of atheist in English:
noun
disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods:
atheist - definition of atheist in English from the Oxford dictionary

How can those that are undecided not be considered to "lack a belief in God"? This is what I am having trouble with in regards to your argument. The definition you provided disproves it.

 

[viole]

Even if confirmed, as you say, there is always room for error. Even with scientific theories that have been demonstrated with repeated experimentation and observation, there is still the chance that they could be inaccurate. Thus, they is still an aspect of belief.

I would say knowledge, not necessarily belief. I do not believe that gravity is always attractive, I know it, even though my knowledge could still be false.

So, I believe (or is it know?) that beiefs are waeker than knowledge. And I think it is sensible to call belief a not yet acquired knowledge, mainly for lack of the evidence necessary for its promotion.

Ciao

- viole

 

[leibowde84]

Yes, then your dictionary is correct. An "atheist" is a person who doesn't believe in god(s). A "strong atheist" is a person who believes gods don't exist.Actually, the prefix -a means literally "not, without". A-theist. Not theist. In order to change the meaning of "atheist" you would have to change the meaning of the prefix -a or the meaning of "theist".

This is exactly my point. People are free to change the meanings of terms, but those meanings are still incorrect. Atheism is merely a lack of belief. There is nothing more that is required.

 

[Willamena]

But, your cited definition helps to prove my point. According to it, all that is required for "atheist" is a LACK OF BELIEF IN GOD OR GODS. There is no requirement for an active belief that God does not exist. Those that are undecided are still included in the definition.

I'm drawing a picture (scribble, scribble), and I hold it up. It's a picture of "belief in god/gods," and let's pretend for a moment that you get that. You see it in that picture.

Now I'm going to try drawing another picture of "I believe in god/gods." I can't. It's something people do, not something that exists in the world. I have no means of putting it in image, other than holding up that same picture I drew earlier of "belief in god/gods." That's because this "I" thing isn't real (but that's another story). It doesn't actually differ from whatever it applies itself to.

We do, however, delight in framing the former in terms of the latter in language. And we're very good at it.

The theist is just a wordy frame for theism, and the atheist a frame for atheism.

 

[ArtieE]

When I say, "I don't believe in god," I say it in the same vein as, "I don't believe in Bigfoot," or, "I don't believe in fairies." I don't mean that they might exist; rather, I don't allow for their existence at all. That's strong and implicit, and where the topic is god, it's strong and implicit atheism. It expresses my belief, my opinion, with no ambiguity.

If you just say "I don't believe in god" to a theist and mean exactly that you have nothing to prove. You are saying that you are just not a theist. But if you say "I believe god doesn't exist" then you have a belief to defend and he might ask you "Yeah, and why not? Why don't you believe god doesn't exist?" because then you have taken a position.

 

[Altfish]

If you just say "I don't believe in god" to a theist and mean exactly that you have nothing to prove. You are saying that you are just not a theist. But if you say "I believe god doesn't exist" then you have a belief to defend and he might ask you "Yeah, and why not? Why don't you believe god doesn't exist?" because then you have taken a position.

No you don't. It is impossible to prove that something doesn't exist.
Prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist or the Celestial Tea pot doesn't exist...you can't definitively do that. It is the same with any god.