I Love Satan!

[Runlikethewind]

No I don't worship Satan, nor do I like/love the evil that he has embraced. However if we are to love our enemies and pray for those who hate us, and if Satan is an angelic being created by God then by nature anything created by God is good. So does it follow that we should love Satan. I mean if we can love Satan, and I think that God might still love him, then how could we not love the rest of or human neighbors including such tyrants as Hitler and Sadam? Am I wrong if I think we should love Satan as one of God's lost children?

 

[dawny0826]

God doesn't love evil. God hates evil.

We are not called to embrace Satan, the very epitome of evil.

HItler and Sadam were men with the ability to TURN FROM evil, had they so choosed. We should care for the salvation of people like Hitler and Sadam and we wouldn't be in the wrong to show love and kindness to people like Hitler and Sadam.

Satan cannot be saved. Hitler and Sadam had the opportunity to embrace salvation.

When in Christ, Satan is a defeated foe. I choose not to entertain any notions that Satan is anything more than that...a defeated foe.

 

[lilithu]

No I don't worship Satan, nor do I like/love the evil that he has embraced. However if we are to love our enemies and pray for those who hate us, and if Satan is an angelic being created by God then by nature anything created by God is good. So does it follow that we should love Satan. I mean if we can love Satan, and I think that God might still love him, then how could we not love the rest of or human neighbors including such tyrants as Hitler and Sadam? Am I wrong if I think we should love Satan as one of God's lost children?

According to the Sufi tradition even Satan will be reconciled with God.

The difference here is whether one believes that Satan/Hitler/Sadam/etc commited evil acts or whether they are evil. If you believe that they committed evil acts, or in your language embraced evil, but that they are not in and of themselves inherently evil, then what you propose makes sense.

If otoh, you believe that Satan is evil itself, the source of evil, and if you believe that people can be inherently evil, then what you propose does not make sense. If Satan is evil incarnate, Satan cannot be saved.

I do not believe that anyone is inherently evil so....

 

[Runlikethewind]

Satan cannot be saved. Hitler and Sadam had the opportunity to embrace salvation.

Good point. I was really thinking more about the nature of Satan as opposed to his possibility of reconciliation with God. The Church teaches me that Satan was originally a good angel that turned away from God. The Church also teaches that this turning was irrevocable and unforgivable. Maybe its not love then that I should have but pity....

 

[Runlikethewind]

According to the Sufi tradition even Satan will be reconciled with God.

The difference here is whether one believes that Satan/Hitler/Sadam/etc commited evil acts or whether they are evil. If you believe that they committed evil acts, or in your language embraced evil, but that they are not in and of themselves inherently evil, then what you propose makes sense.

If otoh, you believe that Satan is evil itself, the source of evil, and if you believe that people can be inherently evil, then what you propose does not make sense. If Satan is evil incarnate, Satan cannot be saved.

I do not believe that anyone is inherently evil so....

I must agree that no one is inherently evil, not Hitler, Stalin, or anyone. I do beleive that they commited evil acts but that God can forgive. And it may be heretical (which is a bad thing for a Catholic like myself) to say this but I kind of hope that God will forgive absolutly everyone including Satan. But then again forgiveness might be a two way street requiring the person, or Satan, to accept the forgivness offered. I don't know if Satan would be willing to accept that. Its kind of hard for Satan to be reconciled with God if he doesn't want to be.

 

[dawny0826]

Satan cannot be saved. Hitler and Sadam had the opportunity to embrace salvation.

Good point. I was really thinking more about the nature of Satan as opposed to his possibility of reconciliation with God. The Church teaches me that Satan was originally a good angel that turned away from God. The Church also teaches that this turning was irrevocable and unforgivable. Maybe its not love then that I should have but pity....

In truth, I've thought about all of this myself, before.

Then my thoughts turn to Christ...who made it possible for me to not suffer the same fate that Satan inevitably will.

Warm wishes.

 

[TashaN]

Satan cannot be saved. Hitler and Sadam had the opportunity to embrace salvation.

What do you mean by Hitler and Sadam HAD?

Does that mean they are not saved?

If they are not, how do you know whether they will enter to heaven or hell or whether they have been saved or not?

 

[TashaN]

No I don't worship Satan, nor do I like/love the evil that he has embraced. However if we are to love our enemies and pray for those who hate us, and if Satan is an angelic being created by God then by nature anything created by God is good. So does it follow that we should love Satan. I mean if we can love Satan, and I think that God might still love him, then how could we not love the rest of or human neighbors including such tyrants as Hitler and Sadam? Am I wrong if I think we should love Satan as one of God's lost children?

hmmmm

Turning the other cheeck to Satan?

 

[TashaN]

I must agree that no one is inherently evil, not Hitler, Stalin, or anyone. I do beleive that they commited evil acts but that God can forgive. And it may be heretical (which is a bad thing for a Catholic like myself) to say this but I kind of hope that God will forgive absolutly everyone including Satan. But then again forgiveness might be a two way street requiring the person, or Satan, to accept the forgivness offered. I don't know if Satan would be willing to accept that. Its kind of hard for Satan to be reconciled with God if he doesn't want to be.

Well, according to Islam, Satan would have the chance to obey God (he believe in God but he doesn't obey him), but he refused that because he was arrogant.

[11] It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down.


[12] (Allah) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."


[13] (Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."


[14] He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."

[15] (Allah) said: "Be thou amongst those who have respite."


[16] He said: "Because Thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on Thy Straight Way:


[17] "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for Thy mercies)."


[18] (Allah) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, Hell will I fill with you all.


[19] "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

[20] Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever."


[21] And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.


[22] So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

[23] They said: "Our Lord! we have wronged our own souls: if Thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost." (Quran 7:11-23)

The diference in this situation is that Satan was arrogance and he didn't ask for forgiveness but he asked for so long life till the day of judgement in order to decieve us from the right path because he think that his creation was greater than ours, while on the other hand as we see in verse 23, Adam and Eve were humble and they asked for forgiveness then God forgave them.

 

[Runlikethewind]

The Quran has a very nice take on this question. If Satan is around until the judgement then perhaps after its all over he might have a chance to be reconciled with God. In any event it is clear here too that Satan was originally of the angelic hosts and was at some point good. But yet he causes so much trouble by attacking us from every side. With God anything is possible and so I think that there is a possibility, slim though it is, that a reconciliation between God and Satan may occur and so I think perhaps turning the other cheek to Satan might be the right course. If he can see us take his abuse and still love God and not follow him than maybe he might be humbled into submission just like those enemies on earth who are humbled by turning the cheek.

Again let me say that this is all just speculation on my part, I have yet to make up my mind on this question. Nice input The Truth, thanks for the help.

 

[dawny0826]

What do you mean by Hitler and Sadam HAD?

Does that mean they are not saved?

If they are not, how do you know whether they will enter to heaven or hell or whether they have been saved or not?

There's only one person who knows the true answer to that. I don't claim to be that person, however, judging by their acts in this life, if there was no remorse, no repentence for the acts that they commited, according to my faith and beliefs, my thoughts are that they were hell bound.

I have no way of knowing what was on their hearts and minds at the times of their deaths. I have however, learned much of the nasty lives they lived.

 

[Runlikethewind]

There's only one person who knows the true answer to that. I don't claim to be that person, however, judging by their acts in this life, if there was no remorse, no repentence for the acts that they commited, according to my faith and beliefs, my thoughts are that they were hell bound.

I have no way of knowing what was on their hearts and minds at the times of their deaths. I have however, learned much of the nasty lives they lived.

Yes I would also like to agree with this. Only God can judge them and only they and He know if they asked for forgiveness. I would however like to see them in heaven if, God willing, I make it there myself. I would love to hear their stories of tragedy, of the nasty lives they lead, and how in the end they realized their errors and repented. I would love to see the endless bounds and triumph of God's mercy and forgiveness that He could forgive such people that we see as being unforgivable. It would be a great story of triumph for God.

 

[lilithu]

I would however like to see them in heaven if, God willing, I make it there myself. I would love to hear their stories of tragedy, of the nasty lives they lead, and how in the end they realized their errors and repented. I would love to see the endless bounds and triumph of God's mercy and forgiveness that He could forgive such people that we see as being unforgivable. It would be a great story of triumph for God.

There's another Sufi story about God laughing in delight at the reaction of a man the first time the man sees his murderer in heaven. I like that story a lot. The man is surprised because from his perspective his murderer is clearly evil and does not deserve to be in heaven. But God's perspective is different.

Unitarian Universalism comes from the Christian tradition, and the Universalist side of my spiritual forebears were named because they believed in universal salvation. They believed that God's mercy and forgiveness were such that every person would be saved. It's true that people (or even Satan) cannot be reconciled with God unless he wants to be, but Universalists believe that God has infinite patience.

 

[lunamoth]

I like that Sufi story Lilithu. I agree with your description of universalism...God has infinite patience.
I'm re-reading The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James...wonderful but slow-going (for me anyway). This line caught my eye since this thread is in the back of my mind:

"In the Louvre there is a picture, by Guido Reni, of St. Michael with his foot on Satan's neck. The richness of the picture is in large part due to the fiend's figure being there--that is, the world is all the richer for having a devil in it, so long as we keep our foot upon his neck."

Satan is like the antithesis of Being so in some ways there really is nothing to save. As for all humans, each of us manifest some degree of Love and that is what seeks its ultimate source in God.

2 c,
luna

 

[lilithu]

Satan is like the antithesis of Being so in some ways there really is nothing to save. As for all humans, each of us manifest some degree of Love and that is what seeks its ultimate source in God.

That's interesting luna; I would love to hear your ideas on Satan some time.

If, as James says, the world is richer with Satan in it, how can Satan be the antithesis of Being? For me, the clearest depictions of Satan that I have is from Milton's Paradise Lost and from William Blake. And as such I've always seen him as necessary for being.

By coincidence, I am just starting to reread "Varieties of Religious Experience" again too! Maybe we can compare notes.

 

[Quagmire]

Hmmm...all my bible says is, "Love your enemies" and "..turn away evil with love".
Don't see any "unless they"s or "except for"s or anything like that.

I'm not a christian but I can tell you "love your enemies" is a pretty effective form of spiritual aikido for anybody if you can pull it off.

It's amazing how this incantation can suddenly transform your enemies from "evil monsters" into clumsy, confused children, which are alot easier to forgive.

 

[lilithu]

Hmmm...all my bible says is, "Love your enemies" and "..turn away evil with love".
Don't see any "unless they"s or "except for"s or anything like that.

You must have a very short bible.

I'm not a christian but I can tell you "love your enemies" is a pretty effective form of spiritual aikido for anybody if you can pull it off.

It's amazing how this incantation can suddenly transform your enemies from "evil monsters" into clumsy, confused children, which are alot easier to forgive.

frubals! and welcome to RF!

 

[Quagmire]

You must have a very short bible.


frubals! and welcome to RF!

Thanks!

As far as the short bible, yeah. I like to keep things simple.

 

[lunamoth]

That's interesting luna; I would love to hear your ideas on Satan some time.

My interpretation of Satan fluctuates but yes, I'd like to explore that sometime. Not tongiht though.

If, as James says, the world is richer with Satan in it, how can Satan be the antithesis of Being? For me, the clearest depictions of Satan that I have is from Milton's Paradise Lost and from William Blake. And as such I've always seen him as necessary for being.

James was interpeting the metaphor of the artwork...I have no idea what James thought about Satan, if anything at all. But, a brief thought of my own, we humans live in the tension between our creative, living, loving, free, authentic (Christ) being and those 'forces' (for lack of a better word) that darken that authentic life. Yes, that tension is an inescable part of our life now, a byproduct of free will and reason, and the dark forces do make life richer, or more complex, but at the same time they bring suffering.

By coincidence, I am just starting to reread "Varieties of Religious Experience" again too! Maybe we can compare notes.

That would be cool, and that is an amazing coincidence. I first read this about 8 or so years ago, at the dawn of my own awakening.

 

[lilithu]

That would be cool, and that is an amazing coincidence. I first read this about 8 or so years ago, at the dawn of my own awakening.

It's a slightly less amazing coincidence when you factor in that "The Varieties of Religious Experience" is like one of the foundations of UU theology. For UUs personal experience is the basis by which we discern spiritual truth. I just referenced James and that book for a paper I was writing, where I talked about how important it was for liberal religion, and figured I should reread it again.