I love dharmic religions

[firedragon]

Karma also works by supporting the wrong president. The result is wars, torture camps, bankrupt economy (outsourced jobs, debt), lies, etc. Of course they blame the past president and next president for their own faults. Karma is a package deal....vote for this candidate, and get all of the horrible things that this candidate will bring to bear (and there are a lot of things).

Bush attacked Iraq, people voted and supported him and most did that not knowing much about it. Most are innocent. They are doing pretty well in my opinion.

How would you reconcile that?

 

[Aupmanyav]

For example, if you abandon belief in God and defy God's commands, bad things will happen.

Superstition. I have been an atheist for 40 years, half of my life, and nothing bad has happened to me. I am sure there are other atheists also who are doing well in their life. You are only threatening apocalypse to us. Do you think we will be frightened by all this balderdash?

If a soul is reincarnated, the past life is usually (though not always) forgotten. I wonder when the lapse in memory occurs? Do we forget our past life when we enter heaven? If so, there is no grand reunion with dead husbands, dogs, friends, etc. Maybe a soul's memory is wiped out just before they depart heaven to be reincarnated again.
When rapturing to heaven, I'll reach down and grab your collar (you're coming with me....so stick close).

No, Clara. I am not coming to heaven with you. According to theists, I am headed in the exact opposite direction, the worst of hell (Hindus call it 'Raurava' hell). All BS, no proof. As far as I believe, no soul, no reincarnation (except as the atoms of my body becoming parts of a million of living and non-living things), no lapse of memory, it is total annihilation as a person and no grand reunions.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I believe in this time, Quran towers over all literature and provides proof to follow the Messenger and Possessors of the Authority that are his successors.

That you believe in Quran does not mean that the whole world believes in Quran. To quote from Quran in establishing existence of God or the mission of Mohammad is Circular reasoning. "Quran and Mohammad say that God exists, therefore God does exist. And Mohammad says that he is the messenger of God, therefore he is that, because Quran says so. And, you being a Shi Muslim, extend it to fictitious successors of the son-in-law of your prophet. Give us any independent proof for any of these entities; which I know, and you too know, does not exist.

Link, I have asked this question from @Brian2 also (I hope he comes back to this topic and replies to my questions). I do not absolve even the Hindu theists from it. Any body who talks of God, prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis and soul, let him/her first give the proof of their existence before spinning their yarn. It is an open challenge to all theists.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In the Abrahamic tradition God provides mercy through justice. Jesus suffered and died and bore the just penalty for our sins and the mercy was provided through that.

I hope you enjoyed that little rant.

What a funny story! First believe in an original sin that Adam and Eve tasted a fruit from the tree of knowledge, the serpent talked to Eve. Why was not your God pleased with that? Hindu Gods and Goddesses will be mighty pleased if you get more knowledge. And this original sin gets attached to any human from generations to generations (some 240 generations if we take the period of one generation to be 25 years, because many wise Christians believe that the universe was created 6,000 years ago). Then, 2000 years ago God seeds a virgin girl (He only knows how) and Jesus is born. And once a person accepts Jesus as the savior and God, son of God, the person is absolved of the original sin and of all sins that a he/she may have committed in his/her life, sort of blanket remission. The claims of people who may have been sinned against by this person are ignored and not acknowledged. Take Hitler for example, he is supposed to have been a Catholic. And Hitler is not alone, there have been so many cruel Christian emperors and dictators.

Oh sure, I liked your rant. I would like you to return to the topic to answer my questions about proof for existence of God and soul.

 

[sayak83]

How does the law of karma and reincarnation provide mercy?
In the Abrahamic tradition God provides mercy through justice. Jesus suffered and died and bore the just penalty for our sins and the mercy was provided through that.
In the Bible Paul says that out of faith, hope and love the greatest is love.
In the Dharmic religions it seems that the whole of the lives of all of us is one big game by God and in the end we just end up where we started, as God, and we don't even know we existed as ourselves in our ego.
Either that or God is both good and evil and is just satisfying some inner urge to express the evil side along with the good side. While here in life we are told to escape this wheel of life and death and life and death, so we are to escape God so that we can be God again,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as we were in the beginning.
It really sounds like God is on His own big Samsara in each cycle of the universe expanding and contracting, and can't escape, and we just get dragged along for the ride. It has happened before and we try to escape the wheel, but it will happen again and I guess the next time around in God's Samsara, we will be someone else.
The whole thing seems like the philosophy of men without any evidence for it's truth in archaeology.
At least in the Abrahamic religions the historic evidence is there and getting stronger all the time with new archaeological finds.
In my opinion.
I hope you enjoyed that little rant.
But of course I am serious.

If you can create a separate thread listing your objections to Dharmic religion, I would be interested to reply to it a bit more systematically.

 

[Martin]

If you can create a separate thread listing your objections to Dharmic religion, I would be interested to reply to it a bit more systematically.

Yes, and this thread seems to have gone horribly off-topic.

 

[firedragon]

No, Clara. I am not coming to heaven with you. According to theists, I am headed in the exact opposite direction

Is that part of your faith? Your belief system? Is that true belief or blind belief?

Did you build a religion based on opposing theists to smile and be happy for a minute or two at least?

Some theists believe that atheists will all go to hell. Some theists dont.

So what is your research to substantiate your faith statement above? If you dont have any research done, this is blind faith. Your own false religion.

 

[Link]

That you believe in Quran does not mean that the whole world believes in Quran. To quote from Quran in establishing existence of God or the mission of Mohammad is Circular reasoning. "Quran and Mohammad say that God exists, therefore God does exist. And Mohammad says that he is the messenger of God, therefore he is that, because Quran says so. And, you being a Shi Muslim, extend it to fictitious successors of the son-in-law of your prophet. Give us any independent proof for any of these entities; which I know, and you too know, does not exist.

Link, I have asked this question from @Brian2 also (I hope he comes back to this topic and replies to my questions). I do not absolve even the Hindu theists from it. Any body who talks of God, prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis/avataras and soul, let him/her first give the proof of their existence before spinning their yarn. It is an open challenge to all theists.

Salam

I have tried to answer both these questions but in other threads. But it would be diverting the OP so I won't do that here.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So what is your research to substantiate your faith statement above?

Yeah, Firedragon, I have done the research and have no reason to believe either in existence of heaven or that of hell. What I said is a fun remark. After death, my body will go to a medical college where students will dissect it and learn about human body. I do not know and I have to ask them (All India Institute of Medical sciences, commonly known as AIIMS, Delhi) as to how they dispose a body after it has been done with. But that does not effect my decision.I have already said in the concerned post that I consider it all BS.

 

[firedragon]

Yeah, Firedragon, I have done the research and have no reason to believe either in existence of heaven or that of hell. What I said is a fun remark. After death, my body will go to a medical college where students will dissect it and learn about human body. I do not know and I have to ask them (All India Institute of Medical sciences, commonly known as AIIMS, Delhi) as to how they dispose a body after it has been done with. But that does not effect my decision.I have already said in the concerned post that I consider it all BS.

Well. I dont know which theist believes their "Body" goes to heaven or hell so this is irrelevant, though I admire your thought on donation the needy. But its irrelevant.

The question I asked was why you believe according to "theists" you are going "the other way"?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It gives the soul a chance to grow and evolve over time, as we learn lessons.



Like I said above, it's not a game; it's God giving us other chances to live a good life, to grow and evolve. There is no eternal hell (although there are hell realms, they are temporary, and God often sends Devas to rescue those in the hell realms). Eventually, highly evolved souls are liberated, and reach Moksha. Karma is designed to help us see what it's like on the other side of the coin; kindness to others brings kindness to yourself, but if you are cruel, then life will teach you a lesson in cruelty.

The Christian God, on the other hand, gives you one chance, and if you blow it, you're sent to be tortured and burned for all eternity. That's not mercy; that's manipulation.

We can also evolve and progress through the many other worlds of God. There are many worlds of God for this reason. This is just an alternate way we view it. By visiting these worlds of God we can learn all the lessons required to become liberated, saved or attain the highest spiritual levels. So it is not absolutely necessary we return to this world when we can learn from the many other worlds of God the same lessons.

As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.


Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures. In each of these worlds He hath ordained things which none can search except Himself, the All-Searching, the All-Wise. (Baha’u’llah)

 

[loverofhumanity]

Just out of interest. Why does just about everyone interpret heaven and hell as physical places? And being reborn to be physically reborn into another physical body?

I understand that these concepts originated from spiritual Books depicting the state of one’s spirit or soul if it obeyed or disobeyed God or spiritual laws.

So to me that would mean to obey God would be to be near Him and that would put the soul in a sanctified or heavenly spiritual state whereas to disobey God would abase one’s soul to the lowest state or hell.

I can’t see where a literal interpretation makes any sense at all.

 

[Brian2]

That's not Hinduism or Buddhism.

So I am knocking down a straw man?
Isn't God in Hinduism, everything? Aren't we God?

I've read this a few times, and I am not sure what you are trying to say?

If everything is God, if we are God and if this cycle of universe expansion and contraction will go on forever, does this mean that there are an ever growing number of people reaching Nirvana or Mocsha or does it mean that God is back to being united again to Himself?

There is mercy in Karma because it shows us how to treat other living things. An animal abuser in this life might very well become a suffering animal in the next life to show the soul how it feels to be abused. The soul will evolve from there and say, oh, it's wrong to abuse animals. Reincarnation allows us chances to right our wrongs. Eventually we will reach Moksha, and union with God. That is forever. Once a soul has reached Moksha, in my sect, there is no going back. Yes, the world will end and begin again, for different souls who need to go through the process of spiritual evolution.

Doesn't that depend on the beginning and the end. If the beginning was God united and then at the end there is just God united then what has changed. The whole thing is for nothing.

 

[Brian2]

Umm slight correction.

Brahman does not DO these things.

Universe is a phenomenon and a multilevel set of phenomena -- that are part of nature of Brahman. It is neither a game nor an accident. It is nature. It is science.
Like you bat your eye-lid.

However, there is a gulf of difference on understanding and perspective between us and Brahman, who knows, is aware of the eternal original, we don't.

We think with our egos and think we are individuals , forget that we are appearances like waves, and blame our mistakes and/or lack of understanding on Brahman. "Why did He cause this suffering?"
He didn't. We just didn't have the right understanding.

but Brahman, out of infinite compassion and love, comes here to gently teach us about it, nourishing, raising and elevating us with His love and widens out perspective and horizon to peace and Sat-Chit-Ananda that we are.

|| om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ||

How did it all start and how will it end? Is it a never ending series of cycles of God waking and God sleeping.
Are we part of a creation or are we really part of God?
Do I go in to be forever me or do I go on to be united with God and being sort of absorbed into God?
If I learn to be a better person then things are better than yesterday but if good and evil are all part of God, who is beyond good and evil, what really has changed if I learn to be a better person?
The big picture is important and if all is God and God does not really change then nothing really changes and the suffering will come and go forever with nothing really changing.

 

[firedragon]

So I am knocking down a straw man?
Isn't God in Hinduism, everything? Aren't we God?

Not all of Hinduism.

 

[firedragon]

If everything is God, if we are God and if this cycle of universe expansion and contraction will go on forever, does this mean that there are an ever growing number of people reaching Nirvana or Mocsha or does it mean that God is back to being united again to Himself?

You are mixing up several ideas together and completely jumbling it up.

 

[Ashoka]

Isn't God in Hinduism, everything? Aren't we God?

That depends on the sect. In Dvaita, a dualist school, God is diferent from us. In Advaita, he is not..

If everything is God, if we are God and if this cycle of universe expansion and contraction will go on forever, does this mean that there are an ever growing number of people reaching Nirvana or Mocsha or does it mean that God is back to being united again to Himself?

Again, that depends on the school. We are, in my sect, God; we just need to realize it. My school is monistic and panentheistic. So God is immanent and transcendent in His creation. At the end of the world, of the universe, we all return to God, and the cycle begins again. Does that make sense?

Doesn't that depend on the beginning and the end. If the beginning was God united and then at the end there is just God united then what has changed. The whole thing is for nothing.

What has changed is that we realize our true nature and who we are. It's not for notrhing; we are blinded by Maya, Karma and Anava, which clouds our true nature, but when we are free of that, we are free from the cycle of birth and death and merge with God.

 

[Brian2]

Dharmic actions offset bad karma that resulted from adharmic actions.

That could result in doing good for our benefit and not out of love.

 

[Brian2]

The point is, from a dharmic perspective, we are ignorant to the fact that we are God, and through the yogas, bhakti, karma, and jnana, this ignorance can be shed.

The point I was trying to make is that in a pantheistic religion where God is all, there would be no need for any ignorance or suffering. It seems it would be produced either through the will of God or because God cannot help but go down that path.
I cannot see how God could become ignorant of who He is.
I cannot see why God would have to come and teach Himself about who He is etc

 

[Brian2]

You are mixing up several ideas together and completely jumbling it up.

I tend to learn a bit more by being wrong in what I say.