YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Interesting point. The word Messiah means "anointed one." It can get detailed as recorded in the Bible,.but many would associate the word as relating to Jesus.
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I Just Proved That Jesus Is A False Messiah In Less Than 5 Minutes
- Thread starter Only Reason
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- christianity judaism
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I've heard some people believe that, but I'm assuming you don't believe Mary was the messiah?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Yes, there are TWO Messias.
Jesus is the Redeemer that Job spoke of, he who is alive and will one day stand on the earth. He will pay our price.
Jesus is a type of Melchizedec, who was both priest and king.
David is a type of Jesus, one who was the rejected and reigning king.
Jesus is the suffering crucified Messiah of Psalm 22, the one who suffers, dies but lives to see himself preached to the Gentiles 'that he has done this.'
Jesus is the returning king for whom Zechariah says the Jews mourn when they realized their messiah is the lowly man they crucified.
Scripture makes this clear - if you wish to reign with Him you must suffer and die for Him.
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AdamjEdgar
Active Member
hmmm, i would take theological issue with the claim that there are multiple messiahs. I think this is inconsistent with Bible theology and causes extreme contradictions that are unworkable.
The Bible very clearly states that just as through 1 man all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, through one man [jesus], all are saved.
I would argue that it is not reconcilable for multiple biblical messiahs in the plan of salvation. I also deny that the scriptures say we are to die for Jesus. That is not possible, we as sinners cannot save ourselves or earn salvation of our own accord through penance. That is biblical heresy!
What we can do is die to sin and be rebirthed into the kingdom as Christians, however, this is accepting righteousness and sanctification by faith in His death as the paid price for the sins of all mankind. That is the entire point of the Sanctuary service and its meaning.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Error is begotten of imperfect beings. As Judaism evolved it became a religion about being “chosen” but loosing sight of what they were chosen for. When the day came for Abrahams blind faith to be rewarded, the theology of the leadership of Judaism held the people tightly with rigid expectations, a nationalism, a religious pride that they could not escape. Tragically they rejected the Son and their calling. The light went West where at least a compromised version of the original was adopted and expanded upon.
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Lets also not forget, the taking of the gospel to the Gentiles did not mean that salvation was not offered to Gentiles prior to this time. That would be a false theology and inconsistent with the biblical account.
some examples of this:
1. Noah preaching for 120 years prior to the flood salvation was available to anyone who believed and entered the ark
2. The story of Jonah and the whale and his preaching against the city of Ninevah...essentially an entire heathen town was converted
3. The final plague that descended upon the Egyptians...anyone on that fateful night who placed the blood on their doorposts was spared the death of firstborn children...even the Egyptians who followed this directive. I think the mixed multitude who left Egypt with the Israelites clearly believed enough of Moses preaching to prepare that night and then follow him out into the desert.
Yes
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
By dying I mean surrendering your life. Wasn't it Paul who said, 'I die daily' ???
And didn't Jesus speak of a corn of wheat falling into the ground and dying?
What think you? You meet a preacher who is rich and famous, and has a fleet of private jets. And a second preacher has given up his job, home, family, everything... and simply preaches. All else being equal - who had the power to point you to Christ?
As for multipe Messiahs, who do YOU think Moses was speaking of when he said God would raise up a prophet like himself - the meekest man in the world. And who is David speaking of in Psalm 22 and 69? And who is Daniel speaking of when he writes of the one to whom all things belong, and will die for his people at the hands of the nation that does the Jewish state in? And who is this Redeemer, already alive, that Job speaks of? And who does Isaiah repeatedly write of, the one who would suffer, die and be alive again?
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mary was the feminine aspect of christ, jesus was the masculine.
but then, colossians 3:11 says everyone is; which kind of agrees with john 21:15 and the lambs. when jesus asked peter to feed the lambs; he was speaking of christ. not everyone is aware of their true nature, the spirit of love. in some it is latent, in some it is growing, in others fully understood and revealed. love enlightens.
john 21:15
love is the law. it was the new commandment that jesus gave to the disciple, but honestly it was always the law. They just hadn't understood that what some taken for granted, common, will sometimes become contemptible to some because they believe they believe it's beneath them. You don't miss the water until the well runs dry.
Colt
Well-Known Member
True, in some ways Jesus was getting back to the basics of salvation by faith and for ALL of Gods children on earth. It wasn't so much that he was creating a "new way" but he was revealing something that we didn't know or a truth that had been lost from ancient times; the Son of God has always been the way to the Father. He was now on earth in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
When Jesus went into the desert to fast and pray, before he began his ministry, he was visited by Satan. In the story of Adam and Eve, Satan was the originator of law or knowledge of good and evil as symbolized by Adam and Eve eating from the tree that was occupied by Satan. Law and Satan are connected by the symbolism of the tree, with God never condoning law or that tree.
Adam and Eve were fooled into believing that law was the high road, even though God warned and told them otherwise. Knowledge of good and evil and law brought death into the world, since humans would learn to stack the deck of law with shady lawyers, so it would became self serving.
Satan, when he visited Jesus in the desert, among other things, promised Jesus all the wealth and power of all the kingdoms of the earth, if Jesus would bow and serve him. Jesus never said that Satan did not have this authority, since Jesus knew Satan was the Lord of the Earth in charge of the banished humans after the fall. Satan was not just evil, but is good and evil, like law.
Had Jesus accepted that offer by Satan, Jesus would have become the Messiah who was anticipated in the Old Testament. That Messiah was supposed to be rich and powerful and able to subdue all the enemies of Israel. Satan gave Jesus that option, since Satan was in charge of Humans. But Jesus gracefully declines the offer, since he came to earth supersede law, and bring humans back to paradise.
Jesus had the choice to become the Messiah who was anticipated in the Old Testament, but that meant continuing the trajectory of the original sins of Adam and Eve, by choosing Satan and law. Instead Jesus decided to make a different choice. Law was from Satan, and Jesus wanted to set the clock back and predate the fall from paradise, when Adam and Eve were still pure; New Adam.
Law was not a factor in paradise before Adam and Eve fell from grace. They were under faith and instinct. The anticipated Messiah was like an inner loop of fate/time, that had come full circle. A new tangent point suddenly appears, that lead us back to a new cross roads with one path leading to before the fall, when humans lived by faith, with God among them; paradise.
This choice of Jesus would lead to Satan being thrown from heaven.This symbolized that law and eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, no longer had a divine purpose. The symbolism showed law becoming only from man; atheism, with humans still serving Satan after his fall. After Jesus. humans were placed at the crossroads like Adam and Eve, since the New Adam made it possible to loop another way and return home, or one could choose Satan again.
Under the law, genealogy was important; bloodline. But descending from DNA alone, does not guarantee anything in the future, since DNA changes with time; evolution. Faith in bloodlines or DNA, would cause people to rest on their laurels as though being born of a certain clan, gives you an edge, that does not need any extra effort beyond the legal paper work. The Jews were looking for a Messiah connected to them by bloodline, and could not see the capacity for change that genetics diversity brings. Jesus opens the door to the Gentiles so the Holy Spirit had more ways to work; Saints are from all races.
Jesus proved to be the promised 'seed' of the first prophecy found at Genesis 3:15.
Matthew logically traces Jesus ' ' paternal ' family line.
Luke logically traces Jesus' ' maternal ' family line .
Mary's father was Heli. Son-in-law back then was considered as: son - Luke 3:23
See the Bible book of 1st Chronicles.
Jesus had both the blood line and the legal line.
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Please read at least the first three chapters of First Chronicles.
Luke could have easily got information from the Temple records that existed at that time frame.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
There are two prophecies that are both fulfilled wonderfully in Jesus:
1) David's direct descendant would be an eternal king and Messiah
2) Solomon's wickedness led to Solomon's kingly line cut down/removed to Babylon
Joseph was the most direct descendant of Solomon and passed the right to kingship to his eldest, Jesus, who was adopted and not tainted by the cutting off of Solomon's line of kings
PLUS
Mary was the most direct descendant of David's son NATHAN and untainted.
The SOLE way to complete BOTH prophecies was to have a son of David's adopted by the kingly line of Solomon. Bingo!
DKH
Member
Sorry, but this just isn't correct and several others have attempted to use this same type of narrative. But, many just refuse to accept the facts. The follow is my position/opinion:
The reality that artificial insemination is a proven procedure today negates the idea that a woman must have sexual intercourse to get pregnant. So, if a man/woman can successfully perform such a procedure it would be a minor task for the Creator of our universe to do the same type of procedure, but in a more miraculous way!
I disagree that Mary's descendancy is hinted in Luke 1:34-36 or anywhere else in Luke. This is a common misconception.
Yet, it is true that Mary was a blood relative to Elizabeth. They seemed to be cousins. However, they did not come from the same tribe. Elizabeth's descendancy came through the tribe of Levi and Mary's descendancy came through the tribe of Judah. Their mothers were sisters, but each sister married men from different tribes. This was a common occurrence.
Joseph (the husband) of Mary was not a descendant of Solomon. He was a descendant of Nathan (the brother of Solomon) Luke 3:31. Yet, I do agree that he would be disqualified from having any descendancy affiliation with the Anointed One (Jesus). This understanding should draw our attention to a problem in Matthew 1:16…
So, how do we connect the Anointed One (Jesus) with King David/Solomon? We would need to correct the mistranslation of Matthew 1:16. The original (Aramaic) does not record Joseph as being the husband of Mary, but her father. Thus, keeping in uniformity with Matthew 1:1-15, verse 16 should read: And Jacob begat Joseph and Joseph begat Mary [of whom was born the Anointed One (Jesus)].
We can also review another problem that arises in Matthew 1. In verse 17 it recorded that there would be fourteen generations from Abraham to David, this can be verified. From David until the carrying away into Babylon fourteen generations, this can be verified. From the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations, this cannot be verified! The way it is recorded in today's bible copies there are only thirteen generations from the carrying away into Babylon! However, this is corrected when we understand that the name Joseph (in verse 16) is not the husband of Mary, but the father of Mary.
Therefore, (in my opinion) the Anointed One's descendancy can be correctly traced to the line of King David, through King Solomon in Matthew 1, when we review and correct the problems that have been translated into today's bible copies.
Colt
Well-Known Member
The virgin birth theory was added later. Its a common belief among Pagan religions. Jesus never made any such claim. The Nazareth family that Jesus came out of had been an ordinary family apart from Marrys encounter with Gabriel and Josephs dream. Joseph and Mary would have been married and their first born Jesus was one of a number of children that they had.
We can see in the reaction that other members of the tiny village of Nazareth had towards Jesus when he returned during his public teaching.
The Rejection at Nazareth
(Mark 6:1–6; Luke 4:16–30)
53When Jesus had finished these parables, He withdrew from that place. 54Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph,g Simon, and Judas? 56Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at Him.
But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own household is a prophet without honor.” 58And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief.
The Rejection at Nazareth
(Mark 6:1–6; Luke 4:16–30)
There was NO indication in the community of Nazareth that Jesus was anything other than the legitimate son. However while conceived the natural way, I do fervently believe that the miracle of the Son of God becoming the person of Mary's baby at conception is the miracle of miracles.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In the past, the records were kept in the temple in Jerusalem, I believe. How about now, where do you think the records are kept?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No doubt. I am asking about now though, current times. The records were stored. But what about since then, do you think the Jews are keeping records of genealogical descent now? If so, would you know where?