I Have Questions about Buddhism...

[Tathagata]

Promoting? Where did I promote anything?

Just curious; you seem to relish online confrontations with folks.

This is a religious discussion site. Religion is discussed and if I see something I disagree with, I express that disagreement.

It's not something that I feel enhances my practice or my efforts to share thedharma one bit - tried it out, didn't find it helpful, to me or others. Your mileage may vary, of course.

"Preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it, and make it clear-until they, when others start vain doctrines, shall be able to vanquish and refute them, and so to spread the wonderworking truth abroad. I shall not die until the pure religion of truth shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent-until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!"
-- the Buddha [Mahaparinibbana Sutta]*



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[Engyo]

This is a religious discussion site. Religion is discussed and if I see something I disagree with, I express that disagreement.




"Preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it, and make it clear-until they, when others start vain doctrines, shall be able to vanquish and refute them, and so to spread the wonderworking truth abroad. I shall not die until the pure religion of truth shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent-until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!"
-- the Buddha [Mahaparinibbana Sutta]*



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BTW, I'm not trying to change your mind, just making sure folks know that I don't share your views on these issues.

 

[ratikala]

It's not my opinion, it's the doctrinally correct position. I've read much Buddhist scripture and the 4 Noble Truths are hardly mentioned at all

are you not humble enough to say that this is my understanding ?
and are you not humble enough to allow others their understandings ?

And this fact makes sense, theres only so much you can say about a list of 12 things. There is no substance to these and this is fact. What is Right View, Right Speech, Right Action? You wouldn't know if all you read was a list that is the 4NT & 8FP.

say nothing , just practice

Scripture spends thousands upon thousands of pages describing what Right View is, the essential knowledge of the Universe.

As I pointed out before: "The Tathagata sees the Universe face to face and understands its nature."

The Buddha would never say "ignore all knowledge, just memorize this list."

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I think the buddha intended us to practice it , not memorise it ?

 

[wmjbyatt]

So, I was raised a Methodist Christian, but I have had some problems with it. So I have some questions about Buddhism.

1. What does it believe as far as self-discipline? That's one of the potential aspects that attracts me to it.

2. Is it really a kind of agnosticism? Forgive my ignorance, but if I don't ask it I'll never know.

3. What are the ideas concerning Dharma?

4. Are the guidelines to reach enlightenment strict?

Okay! But, if I had failed to ask about something I should know, please say it! I'd rather have too much information than too little when it concerns this.

You may be gathering from these responses that it's not as simple as that. To paraphrase a Buddhist master: to explore Buddhism is to explore the Self.

Honestly, if you want to find out what Buddhism "is" or what Buddhism "means" or "believes," begin practicing. Read Sutras. Read commentaries. Meditate. Meditate a lot. Talk with seekers and masters. Critically examine what you read. Feel free to disagree on whatever point you like. I've read plenty of Buddhist material with which I disagree strongly, including stuff written by very respected masters (I have deep problems with parts of what H.H. the XIV Dalai Lama is teaching, for example).

Buddhism is, in the end, a practice before all else. To be Buddhist is to walk the Buddha Way, whether that is the acceptance of the Precepts and Eightfold Path or the Prajnaparamita or some weird-*** Vajra World stuff. Important schools of Buddhism differ radically on what others would consider key points of thought. Individual schools teach individual doctrines, but most teachers will tell you that doctrines are teachings to bring one to enlightenment, and that's why contradictory doctrines exist: many paths, one mountain, blah blah blah.

Anywho, if you have want clarification regarding individual sects (because to talk about "Buddhism" in general is very difficult), I recommend hitting up the individual Buddhist DIR's. I can't speak to the Mahayana, Theravada, and Vajrayana DIR's, but the Zen DIR does a good job of discussing questions pretty damned well.

One last note: don't take anything anyone says about Buddhism or the Buddha too seriously until you've understood it for yourself. Shakyamuni Buddha's last words were an admonition to all his students to be their own lamps in the darkness and to not take even his words on faith alone.

 

[DreadFish]

As you can see, in Buddhism there are many views and people contradict each other and argue opposing points just like everywhere else

Anyway, it is true there are different opinions. Some schools lean more towards study of philosophical concepts and metaphysics and words and stuff. Other schools lean more towards practice and experience that go beyond words and concepts. Now, scripture is like food, and like fingers. Food gives you something to digest and keep you going, and fingers point at stuff to direct your attention to it. Pay attention to where the fingers point, not too much attention to the finger (like what shape it is and the wrinkles and tone of the skin), and dont get too attached to food, because, well, it's food, and it isnt and end in and of itself, only a means to sustenance (or something like that).

Anyway, as the others have said, be a lamp unto yourself, whatever you decide to practice Be happy, make others happy.

 

[DreadFish]

"Preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it, and make it clear-until they, when others start vain doctrines, shall be able to vanquish and refute them, and so to spread the wonderworking truth abroad. I shall not die until the pure religion of truth shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent-until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!"
-- the Buddha [Mahaparinibbana Sutta]*



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Though I would add that some people simply are not at the point to understand the ideas and practices. Some people may never fully grasp these things in their current lifetime, their mind is not at that stage yet. Still, it plants a seed, and that is good.

 

[DreadFish]

@DreadFish

I don't believe the Buddhas teachings can be summed as you have described. There is much more to his teachings than cultivate positive, dont do negative, and discipline your mind. See my next post and you'll see why.

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Im not sure I get what you were adding to it in your next post. I guess I look at it like this: ceasing negative actions benefits all, cultivating positive actions benefits all, disciplining your mind benefits all. After all, this is the mind we are talking about, it is capable of seeing itself and realizing it's own nature. Once poisons and obscurations are dissolved, realization is imminent.

 

[Tathagata]

BTW, I'm not trying to change your mind, just making sure folks know that I don't share your views on these issues.

It's not my view, just showing what the Buddha said. You don't share the views of the Buddha?


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[DreadFish]

This is a quote by Milarepa that illustrates what I mean about scriptures and doctrine:

"Just as the mere name of food does not satisfy the appetite of a hungry person but he must eat food, so also a man who would learn about the Voidness (i.e. Universal Awareness) must meditate so as to realize it, not just learn of its definition."

Practice is essential.

 

[Tathagata]

are you not humble enough to say that this is my understanding ?
and are you not humble enough to allow others their understandings ?

You can have whatever understanding you want, I'm simply pointing out the Buddha's understanding and many who have posted in this thread don't have an understanding that is in line with the Buddha's teaching.

Again, they can believe whatever they wish, but they can't misattribute their non-Buddhist beliefs and say that they're in line with Buddhism.

"Suppose a monk were to say: "Friends, I heard and received this from the Lord's own lips: this is the Dhamma, this is the discipline, this is the Master's teaching", then, monks, you should neither approve nor disapprove his words. Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and expressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is not the word of the Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this monk", and the matter is to be rejected. But where on such comparison and review they are found to con*form to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk."

-- the Buddha [DN 16 Mahāparinibbāna Sutta]

say nothing , just practice

Practice what? Eightfold Path? How do you practice the first step of the Eightfold Path: Right View?

I think the buddha intended us to practice it , not memorise it ?

Again, practicing the Eightfold Path involves taking the first step, acquiring Right View.


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[Tathagata]

This is a quote by Milarepa that illustrates what I mean about scriptures and doctrine:

"Just as the mere name of food does not satisfy the appetite of a hungry person but he must eat food, so also a man who would learn about the Voidness (i.e. Universal Awareness) must meditate so as to realize it, not just learn of its definition."

Practice is essential.

"If Truth is not expressed in words and books, the scriptures which contains the meaning of Truth would disappear, and without the scriptures there will be no more disciples and masters and Bodhisattvas and Buddhas, and there will be nothing to teach. ...Religious discourses are given by myself and other Tathagatas in response to the varying needs and faiths of all manner of being,
in order to free them from dependence upon the thinking function of the mind-system, but they are not given to take the place of self-realization of Noble Wisdom."
-- the Buddha [Lankavatara Sutra]


Yes, practice is also important, no one is denying that. But it's merely one aspect. There's also understanding, Right View, and Enlightenment in Buddhism.


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[DreadFish]

Yes, practice is also important, no one is denying that. But it's merely one aspect. There's also understanding, Right View, and Enlightenment in Buddhism.


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That is true that it is one aspect. Scriptures are like food, but you have to digest the food for it to benefit you. Just putting it in your mouth stimulates the mind, but it does not provide it with sustenance, nor does it keep it alive.

Like you quoted a few posts back, we are not to take anything anyone says on faith alone without practicing and testing the words out. While I admire your faith that everything said in the sutras was actually spoken by the historical Shakyamuni Buddha word for word, I do not agree with your viewpoint.
Now, if you want to get the Buddha to come to us and let us know that the sutras are fully correct, then I will believe you fully and thank you for your guidance. Till then, I will have faith in the nature of mind and keep practicing enlightenment.


Im not trying to be a true Buddhist, that's just a word.

 

[DreadFish]

I think we should have a competition, you do it your way, and i'll do it my way, and we'll see who reaches enlightenment first

 

[DreadFish]

Actually, this is all quite unnecessary. I apologize.

 

[Twilight Hue]

say nothing , just practice

I think the buddha intended us to practice it , not memorise it ?

Yep.

Of which practice is a key foundational tenant of Zen Buddhism and I would take this as being the same for most other schools and practitioners.

Referring to the account as told by The Flower Sermon where Mahakasyapa experienced direct prajna in such a manner by which his realisation came about not dependending on Intellectual mediums. Transmission givin by Sakyamuni Buddha fell outside of traditional oral and written discourses, sermons, and writings.
Words and writings attributed to the Buddha are obviously useful and beneficial. It has in my case for which I'm not entirely against such and I wouldnt digress Tathagata entirely in that respect. There is some benefit.

That said however, it can certianly prove to be a notable hinderence and distraction if all that is what's focused upon is by way of it's origin, attributes, and upheld via stolid personal conviction on the basis of such things alone. It opens the road to Dukkha. IMO.

Not trying to be better or smarter than anybody. It's just I've been down that particular road before.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think we should have a competition, you do it your way, and i'll do it my way, and we'll see who reaches enlightenment first

For all concerned, I got dibs on the the Arkansas Chuggabug.

 

[Engyo]

It's not my view, just showing what the Buddha said. You don't share the views of the Buddha?


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I don't share your understanding of the views of the Buddha.

 

[ratikala]

dear tathagata ,

Practice what? Eightfold Path? How do you practice the first step of the Eightfold Path: Right View?

one starts by reflecting upon the four noble truths ,
realising this fundamental teaching to be true , one has atained the first stage of right understanding (right veiw)

having gained your first glimpse of right understanding , one progresses to training in right thought the practices of wisdom) ...
right thought thus dictates right speach , right action and right livlihood ,(the three moral or ethical practices )...
which are followed by right effort , right mindfullnes and right meditation , (the practices of consentration)...

as the divisions cover training in wisdom , training in morality and training in consentration , they are to be practiced in unison as each supports and enforces the other thus developing right understanding through the practice of all .

one can't instantly attain perfection any of the instructions , it is a process which requires constant practice ,

Again, practicing the Eightfold Path involves taking the first step, acquiring Right View.
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if you must insist on a first step , it is called the four noble truths :yes:

 

[ratikala]

dear nowhere man ,

Yep.

Of which practice is a key foundational tenant of Zen Buddhism and I would take this as being the same for most other schools and practitioners.

yep ,

this is my experience allso , unless I am very much mistaken it is the foundation of most if not all schools , :yes:

 

[Tathagata]

I don't share your understanding of the views of the Buddha.

Again, I'm not giving you my views of the Buddha, I'm giving quotes. Look at most of my posts, they contain quotes straight from the Buddha. If I'm giving you the direct quotes from the Buddha, how can you claim it's my view?

Granted, I didn't provide a quote of Buddha saying that the 4NT & 8FP are just an outline, but that is blatantly obvious. Contained within those are nothing but lists, no explanations and teachings as to what each thing is: right view, right action, etc.


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