I fear nothingness

[CarlinKnew]

Yes, we're wired to fear death in order to avoid it. However, although that must play a role in my fear, I think it has more to do with the fact that I'm a sentient being that can ponder upon death as something more than to be avoided at all costs. I can realize what it is, timeless nothingness, and that's where my real fear dwells.

I know I won't be there. I stated that in the OP and many other times throughout this thread. The point is that I am alive now to fear it. From the perspective of a definite something, I fear nothingness, because that's what death is.

I don't understand why you're afraid of something that you know you'll never experience.

 

[AxisMundi]

Yes, I was curious of peoples stances towards it. That doesn't change the fact that I don't dwell on it "for the most part".

Dwelling at it all is unhealthy.

Does it really matter as long as you've left the world a better place, and there are people who will miss you becasue they love you?

Maybe for you, but I could definitely do with longer time. I'd love to watch science progress, watch space exploration advance, live alongside the technology and knowledge of the future. That would be pretty incredible. (And of course, the whole continuing to exist, thing...)

Wow.

When I was a lad, only the really wealthy up at the rich end of the street had colour televisions. Telephones were weighed in pounds, and mobility meant you had a long cord. Cars didn't talk to you, AM radios were an option, and you thought yourself lucky if you got 8 miles to the gallon. And computing power in the office meant someone there knew how to use a slide ruler.

Technology begets technology. You can look forward to even more tech advancment than I did.

It must be comforting to have such a safety net like that to fall back on.

I COULD take that as an insult, but in the interest of debate...

As I said, I believe in reincarnation, I did not say it was a fact.

I live by what I suggested in my second sentance above.

 

[AxisMundi]

I don't understand why you're afraid of something that you know you'll never experience.

I'm much more concerned about HOW I will die.

I would much rather go peacfully in my sleep like my neighbor's grandfather, and not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Yes and this is a debate that you would have to have insight on to debate about.

As you have blatantly assumed I do not have. Has it occurred to you that maybe I have looked into these things and found them lacking?

Have you ever seen a ghost before?

Nope, and as far as we know, neither has anyone else.

What do you think that is?

Well, people think they see things that they don't really see all the time. Sight is a very easy sense to fool and we are pretty good at fooling ourselves.
But hey, bring a ghost into the lab and let us do some tests and we'll see where that leads.

The only science you are using is physical experimentation.

Science is based on the scientific method and as far as I know that is dependent upon physical experimentation of some kind. Anything else you feel like conjuring up is not science.

The only scientists that realize the truth of consciousness being separate from this body are the ones that use yogic techniques that allow them to separate from their body.

Those are not scientists mate.

Delusions of out of body experiences occur everyday, mainly by yogis but sometimes by others too.

Fixed.

You're forgetting one important process of experimentation and that is your breath. Life is connected to your breath and in meditation if you can calm your breath to where it ceases your consciousness can leave your body. I do speak from some experience here actually.

I've practiced Japanese martial arts for more than a decade and in that relation I've also practiced meditation. I do speak from some experience here actually.

They actually mean a whole lot if they all experiment in the same way over centuries and then come to the same conclusion.

So there is no chance that the practitioners of a tradition learned from other leaders of that tradition for centuries and thus knew exactly what to expect and therefore induced themselves to have the same experience?

Wouldn't you say that's scientific?

Nope. Not when we can recreate the same experience through physical (technically magnetic) manipulation of the brain. This strongly indicates a physical process which is in accord with the understanding of cutting edge neurology research.

It is alot more scientific then those who have never experimented with those techniques.

We're not debating whether these techniques can induce such an effect. We know they do and we have the evidence to back that up. What we are debating is whether these effects are purely physical, as the evidence would indicate, or if they are in any way supernatural, i.e. spiritual.

In my mind they have no right to comment on such things if they have never tried it long enough themselves.

I have a right to comment every time someone tries to pass off supernatural notions as facts about reality, and I always ask for evidence. All I ever get are anecdotes, which essentially count for nothing.

Its the same as going online and listening to a scientist and believing their claim.

If you knew anything at all about the scientific method you would not make this comparison. Have you heard of peer review by any chance?

Except you never tried it for yourself. I meditate everyday and can say with my little experience that everything they have said thus far is true.

Oh, you'll get the experiences. I'm sure of that. There is just nothing supernatural about them and they are fully explainable by science.

I won't admit that because I know it is credible evidence.

Then I think you need to upgrade your notion of evidence.

You just want to deny it.

Actually, I think it would be very cool if magic was real. But the evidence says otherwise.

I'm not here to say this is the way and that's it. I wanted to state my belief but since you really want to get into a debate about it, which I tried to avoid, then I guess I'll have to respond.

Much appreciated mate. I love a good debate.

The delusional ones are the ones that claim things are the way they are without their own internal experimentation. To get beyond the body you must go to the source of your consciousness within.

Seeing as conciousness seems to be an emergent property of what my brain does, I guess that would be my brain. And that is what the scientists are doing and the evidence shows that these experiences are not only of a physical nature, but also reproducible through physical experimentation.

I'm talking about your life force that comes in from the medulla and down through your spine all the way through your organs, veins, and nerve endings. Yogi's reverse this process by redirecting that life force back up the spine with a breathing technique. I'm sure some scientists have realized that life force is connected with the breath.

Breath provides oxygen without which we cannot live. But that's about the extent of it. And yes, I know that controlling your breath is an essential step in meditation, but there is nothing supernatural about that either.

Only yogis would know this is true, yet you without any experience in this matter want to call them delusional. You cannot say this without trying this yourself.

And there we have it. The argument from authority, and a shaky one at that. You do know this is a fallacy in and of itself, right?

I know I am not wrong because I have experience on my side while you have none.

That's a rather bold-faced statement from someone who doesn't know me at all. Do I sense an ad hominem coming up?

The only insight I need is from my Enlightened Guru, and their Guru's. Then to have that insight backed by meditational experiences is all the insight I need.

Let's hope the doctors who treat you if you get sick or injured disagree with this statement...

Like I said before you can believe what you want. I am never here to convert anyone although I do wish people would get off their blind claims and begin to explore inwardly and then begin to see for themselves that there is something different about Yoga techniques that everything else fails to uncover. They would know in time like I do that Saints speak the truth.

You and every other mystic/theist on the planet has the one truth. This is not exactly a new tune to play.

You are looking in the wrong places. Words and stories will never get you the evidence you are looking for. Scientists who claim they know what a spiritual experience is obviously don't know what one is like if they are comparing the God Helmet experiences to spiritual experiences.

Seeing as these experiments and their effects have been confirmed by those who are "used" to these kinds of experiences I see your baseless accusation and raise you a scientific study: http://www.mapageweb.umontreal.ca/beauregm/Beauregard2006_CarmelitesfMRI.pdf

I implore you and everyone to look beyond words, books, and debate forums. God is inside and through certain techniques like Kriya Yoga you can then begin to see for yourself that there is a whole world within that you might not ever know otherwise.

I implore you and everyone to look beyond ancient delusions and mysticism. The truth is out there and through the scientific method you can then begin to see for yourself that there is a whole natural world outside that you might not ever know otherwise.


-Cheers ^_^

 

[Raithie]

that was MaybeSpartacus that said "no point in fearing something you can't escape", and MaybeSpartacus is an atheist too...

Ah. I'm talking to too many people in this thread. It gets confusing.

but i just found it interesting that you brought up eternal suffering, unless i'm missing something...

I was using it as an example. You can't get any worse than neverending suffering, so I used it as a challenge to MaybeSpartacus reasoning.

 

[Raithie]

I don't understand why you're afraid of something that you know you'll never experience.

I don't understand why you seem to be so apathetic towards the end of your existence.

I love existing. I love thinking. I love being. Naturally, the end of these things seem pretty lousy.

 

[waitasec]

you know the feeling you get when you're on a roller coaster?
that fear you get when your ascending?
then comes the moment of truth when you are about to drop... it's acceptance...
enjoy the ride

 

[Raithie]

Dwelling at it all is unhealthy.

If too much, I agree. But realizing the finality of death is actually quite important - it serves as a harsh reminder to live your one brief life fully.

Does it really matter as long as you've left the world a better place, and there are people who will miss you becasue they love you?

Yup. That's definitely a benefit, but I'd still prefer to be conscious to see it.

Wow. When I was a lad, only the really wealthy up at the rich end of the street had colour televisions. Telephones were weighed in pounds, and mobility meant you had a long cord. Cars didn't talk to you, AM radios were an option, and you thought yourself lucky if you got 8 miles to the gallon. And computing power in the office meant someone there knew how to use a slide ruler.

Technology begets technology. You can look forward to even more tech advancment than I did.

I love learning. I'd love to continue on doing so. The science of the future will undoubtedly be incredible (assuming humanity survives), and witnessing it would be astounding. Yeah, I'm sure there will be pretty stunning advancements in my time, but the point is that I hate the idea of having only a limited time of understanding.

 

[Raithie]

you know the feeling you get when you're on a roller coaster?
that fear you get when your ascending?
then comes the moment of truth when you are about to drop... it's acceptance...
enjoy the ride

I accepted death years ago. Doesn't dim the crappiness.

 

[CarlinKnew]

I don't understand why you seem to be so apathetic towards the end of your existence.

I love existing. I love thinking. I love being. Naturally, the end of these things seem pretty lousy.

I'm simply not afraid of nothingness because I'll never experience it. That doesn't mean I'm apathetic toward dying; I'm hardwired to avoid it like everyone else. It's the dying part that I fear, if anything, because that can be painful.

I love existing too (sometimes) but I won't be around to miss it when I'm dead, so it doesn't make sense to think about it like that.

 

[Raithie]

I love existing too (sometimes) but I won't be around to miss it when I'm dead, so it doesn't make sense to think about it like that.

You're around to think about it now.

 

[Midnight Pete]

I would expect a Christian to have a fair idea of how precious it is to be capable of love. There is no need for "something out there". Love is possible here and now.

Yes it is, but a Christian would say that the Source of love is "something out there." The Source of Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control is the Holy Spirit which comes from "out there" but manifests here and now, in us.

 

[AxisMundi]

If too much, I agree. But realizing the finality of death is actually quite important - it serves as a harsh reminder to live your one brief life fully.

Yup. That's definitely a benefit, but I'd still prefer to be conscious to see it.

I love learning. I'd love to continue on doing so. The science of the future will undoubtedly be incredible (assuming humanity survives), and witnessing it would be astounding. Yeah, I'm sure there will be pretty stunning advancements in my time, but the point is that I hate the idea of having only a limited time of understanding.

Well, I've used up all my possible responses.

 

[waitasec]

if you find yourself obsessing about it it's because you choose to replay this loop over and over in your mind. do you know what i mean?
if you're not obsessing over it then, GOOD!

 

[Raithie]

if you find yourself obsessing about it it's because you choose to replay this loop over and over in your mind. do you know what i mean?
if you're not obsessing over it then, GOOD!

I'm not obsessing about it. I actually rarely think about it, but when I do, it still sucks. I started this thread to get an idea of how others view death out of curiousity.

So no need to reassure me. I know what death is and accept the inevitability of it. This is merely a discussion thread.

 

[waitasec]

I'm not obsessing about it. I actually rarely think about it, but when I do, it still sucks. I started this thread to get an idea of how others view death out of curiousity.

So no need to reassure me. I know what death is and accept the inevitability of it. This is merely a discussion thread.

good...

i have to admit i was i little worried...even though i have absolutely no idea who you are

 

[CarlinKnew]

You're around to think about it now.

I am, but again, I have nothing to worry about. As long as I exist, I won't miss existence. As soon as I no longer exist, I won't be able to miss existence. So what is there to worry about?

 

[Kriya Yogi]

As you have blatantly assumed I do not have. Has it occurred to you that maybe I have looked into these things and found them lacking?

I assume you have not gone deep enough in your own practice. Meditation in karate class is not the same as deep regular kriya meditation. I assure you. I seriously doubt you have looked into these things because if you have you would not be saying this right now.

Nope, and as far as we know, neither has anyone else.

Yeah because everyone in that room was all having the same delusion at the exact same time. Quite a convenient coincidence. You see the problem here is you have multiple pieces of evidence that lead to a big picture but you want to make excuses of brain illusions. Some are very skillful in their ignorance.

Well, people think they see things that they don't really see all the time. Sight is a very easy sense to fool and we are pretty good at fooling ourselves.
But hey, bring a ghost into the lab and let us do some tests and we'll see where that leads.

Read my last statement above.

Science is based on the scientific method and as far as I know that is dependent upon physical experimentation of some kind. Anything else you feel like conjuring up is not science.

To get beyond the physical in which God and supernatural phenomena can be found you have to go beyond physical, and the only way to scientifically do that is through intuitive meditation.

Those are not scientists mate.

Actually they are. The difference is in their type of experimentation.

A scientist, in the broadest sense, is any person who engages in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge.

I've practiced Japanese martial arts for more than a decade and in that relation I've also practiced meditation. I do speak from some experience here actually.

One has to practice deep meditation everyday to begin to uncover these mysteries of life. Here and there at karate practice may not suffice. It also depends in what technique you use as well. Kriya Yoga is a technique in drawing the life force in your spine to the brain and enlivening your spiritual centers or chakras. It is directly working with our consciousness and breath.

So there is no chance that the practitioners of a tradition learned from other leaders of that tradition for centuries and thus knew exactly what to expect and therefore induced themselves to have the same experience?

No. The masters of centuries ago have said God's bliss is inside. I go into meditate thousands of years later each day more and more with Kriya and low and behold the masters were right, deep bliss is felt. They knew about God's existance and internal realm way before we came to this planet. Its the same with every other deep spiritual experience.

Nope. Not when we can recreate the same experience through physical (technically magnetic) manipulation of the brain. This strongly indicates a physical process which is in accord with the understanding of cutting edge neurology research.

Again how do they know what a spiritual experience is if they don't have a true Master there telling them that it does in fact create the same experience? I assure you they would not claim it as such if they truly had a real spiritual experience. I already know what the Master would say if they did. Its not the same and is mental chloroform while superconsciousness is utterly different in every way.

We're not debating whether these techniques can induce such an effect. We know they do and we have the evidence to back that up. What we are debating is whether these effects are purely physical, as the evidence would indicate, or if they are in any way supernatural, i.e. spiritual.

You do not have evidence to back it up as these scientists dont have true spiritual experiences to compare them to. Brain phenomena is different than out of body out of brain experiences. Its an expression of the soul and not the brain or body. Totally different. I'm not going to go in circles about this with you.

I have a right to comment every time someone tries to pass off supernatural notions as facts about reality, and I always ask for evidence. All I ever get are anecdotes, which essentially count for nothing.

Again your only evidence will be to go in yourself with the right meditation techniques. In time you would get your evidence, I assure you.

If you knew anything at all about the scientific method you would not make this comparison. Have you heard of peer review by any chance?

Well either way its still physical experimentation born of 5 sense perception. Superconsciousness is in the 6th sense. In other words soul perception and intuition.

Oh, you'll get the experiences. I'm sure of that. There is just nothing supernatural about them and they are fully explainable by science.

Some science obviously has yet to discover what many Yogi's have alread found and explained. Therefore they have not fully explained anything other than their folly sense of God experimentation.

Then I think you need to upgrade your notion of evidence.

I do through my own practice. Like I see if their claims are right by deepening my meditations. There would be less doubters out there if they gave more time in this way. I guarantee it.

Actually, I think it would be very cool if magic was real. But the evidence says otherwise.

Even if you saw a miracle you would you just blame it on a trick or trickery of your eyes or brain. You would never give credit to the actual miracle that occured.

Much appreciated mate. I love a good debate.

I do to but I don't see this going anywhere.

Seeing as conciousness seems to be an emergent property of what my brain does, I guess that would be my brain. And that is what the scientists are doing and the evidence shows that these experiences are not only of a physical nature, but also reproducible through physical experimentation.

Well like I said they are doing the wrong type of experimentation.

Breath provides oxygen without which we cannot live. But that's about the extent of it. And yes, I know that controlling your breath is an essential step in meditation, but there is nothing supernatural about that either.

That's because you have not gone deep enough. My Guru used to say when breath ceases supernatural experiences begin.

And there we have it. The argument from authority, and a shaky one at that. You do know this is a fallacy in and of itself, right?

It is not fallacy if you experiment as he says to do and get the exact same results in every way shape and form. You experience the same things in meditation, your life changes, your thoughts are clearer, and consciousness becomes clearer and more spiritual. Its pretty simple if you are open minded to try what they say will get you results.

That's a rather bold-faced statement from someone who doesn't know me at all. Do I sense an ad hominem coming up?

Ok I didn't mean you have no life experience or anything. I'm talking deep Kriya meditation on God. Unless I'm wrong and you have been doing this your whole life?

Let's hope the doctors who treat you if you get sick or injured disagree with this statement...

Of course I would use common sense and conform to specialists in that particular field but when it comes to spirituality I consider my Guru and his Guru's the specialist in the Spirituality field.

You and every other mystic/theist on the planet has the one truth. This is not exactly a new tune to play.

I'm not saying its the only way to truth. I'm saying it is a very quick way to God, but there are others that have reached God in other ways.

Seeing as these experiments and their effects have been confirmed by those who are "used" to these kinds of experiences I see your baseless accusation and raise you a scientific study: http://www.mapageweb.umontreal.ca/beauregm/Beauregard2006_CarmelitesfMRI.pdf

I saw in a few lines in there that this experiment does not in anyway take away from God's existance. It was merely a brain measurement of energy upon certain experiences. Sometimes bliss and deep love is felt while still connected to your body. In fact that is the beginning stages of God communion. I would argue that they need to find an Indian master that knows how to leave their body at will and then try these experiments. I'm sure it would be different results.

I implore you and everyone to look beyond ancient delusions and mysticism. The truth is out there and through the scientific method you can then begin to see for yourself that there is a whole natural world outside that you might not ever know otherwise.

Please don't reword my phrases. I'm patiently entertaining this debate that you want to have. As most theist vs. atheist arguments end, let's agree to disagree.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes it is, but a Christian would say that the Source of love is "something out there." The Source of Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control is the Holy Spirit which comes from "out there" but manifests here and now, in us.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, we don't need to believe in that to realize that this life has its honorable joys.

 

[Raithie]

I am, but again, I have nothing to worry about. As long as I exist, I won't miss existence. As soon as I no longer exist, I won't be able to miss existence. So what is there to worry about?

I understand what you're saying, however, the fear is coming from the fact that everything will end. I don't like that, I can't stop that and the fear develops from that.

From the perspective of existence, non existence sucks.