I fear nothingness

[The Neo Nerd]

I think there is no purpose in life if people would just end up getting born and die, born and die, born and die. There must be something out there, a purpose, and an endless life, on the after life.

Why does there have to be something else out there?

 

[Midnight Pete]

Why does there have to be something else out there?

Because if there isn't, this life is without sense or meaning.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

For instance, i don't see a point in having evil in this world if there is no hereafter.

Good and evil are entirely human constructs.

When evil people die without being punished, there must be a place where they will have to face the consequences of their actions in this life.

Why?

-Q

 

[Midnight Pete]

Quax, I cannot fathom your level of nihilism.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Because if there isn't, this life is without sense or meaning.

I feel sad for you.

-Q

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Quax, I cannot fathom your level of nihilism.

It is obvious that there are a lot of things you are unable to fathom.

I feel sad for you.

 

[Willamena]

Because if there isn't, this life is without sense or meaning.

I'm curious: what meaning does "something out there" provide (other, that is, than "something out there")?

 

[Midnight Pete]

I'm curious: what meaning does "something out there" provide (other, that is, than "something out there")?

"Something out there" provides your life with meaning beyond sleeping, eating, defecating, walking around, having sex, sleeping, eating ....

Maybe the cognitive dissonance here is too great for there to be understanding between us, I don't know.

 

[Willamena]

"Something out there" provides your life with meaning beyond sleeping, eating, defecating, walking around, having sex, sleeping, eating ....

Maybe the cognitive dissonance here is too great for there to be understanding between us, I don't know.

For me, at least, "idea" or "word" provides that.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Well I really didn't want to get into a huge debate with anyone. I realized that it would just be a circular argument that probably wouldn't go anywhere so I saved us some time.

Well, this IS a debate forum... And also there is the slight possibility that you might realize that what you claim to be evidence is not evidence at all and that you might then reconsider spreading unfounded claims.

Arguing about these things with words will never change anyone's mind that is already basically made up. You will just make up excuses for your own mind that all these spiritual experiences are mental chloroform when in fact they are beyond the mind.

Of course, seeing as I am the one with science on my side in this issue, I'd be the one making up excuses... Are you hearing yourself here? :sarcastic

There have been many cases where Yogi's stop there breath and go out of their body to realms we haven't even dreamt of. There are things in this universe or existance that we cannot cognize with our limited experience. Sooner or later more and more people including atheists will begin to experiment with Yogic techniques and then your evidence will be there. Until then words or testimonies won't do any good.

You're right about that. Personal anecdotes are worth next to nothing and for extraordinary claims like this you need some pretty extraordinary evidence. Also, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

I for one cannot deny my experiences, my fathers, all my friends, fellow disciples, and my Guru's words on such matters.

I'm not asking you to either. Let's start with you admitting that you have no credible evidence and that you should stop presenting these claims as truth. What you personally believe is your business, but claiming that said belief is a universal truth is another matter altogether.

I know they wouldn't lie about such things, and neither would my dharmic Guru, and his dharmic Guru, and the ones before him, and the ones before them.

There you go with that straw-man again.
I never said they were lying. I said they were delusional.
Difference.

All of which have said there is sooooooooo much more than just this life. Here I go again though wasting my time, trying to explain something that couldn't possibly convince you. The good thing is spiritual reality exists whether atheists or anyone believe they exist or not so everyone still has inevitable hope beyond this life. Believe what you want though, it won't change reality so to each his own I guess.

I tend to define reality based on evidence and empiricism and so far you have presented none, so no, I don't think you have much chance of convincing me.
However, I've been here before and it always baffles me that believers in these things always sees a discussion as a way of making someone else believe what they believe, and if they don't see that happening they withdraw. Has it ever occurred to you that you might be the one who is wrong? That perhaps the purpose of the discussion is for you to gain more insight, not for you to deliver it?
At least I am open to the idea that I might be wrong about what happens after I die. Show me some solid evidence and I'll spin on a dime and change my mind.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

Well, this IS a debate forum... And also there is the slight possibility that you might realize that what you claim to be evidence is not evidence at all and that you might then reconsider spreading unfounded claims.

Yes and this is a debate that you would have to have insight on to debate about. Have you ever seen a ghost before? What do you think that is? I have and so have others that were there.

Of course, seeing as I am the one with science on my side in this issue, I'd be the one making up excuses... Are you hearing yourself here? :sarcastic

The only science you are using is physical experimentation. The only scientists that realize the truth of consciousness being separate from this body are the ones that use yogic techniques that allow them to separate from their body. Out of body experiences occur everyday, mainly by yogis but sometimes by others too. You're forgetting one important process of experimentation and that is your breath. Life is connected to your breath and in meditation if you can calm your breath to where it ceases your consciousness can leave your body. I do speak from some experience here actually.

You're right about that. Personal anecdotes are worth next to nothing and for extraordinary claims like this you need some pretty extraordinary evidence. Also, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

They actually mean a whole lot if they all experiment in the same way over centuries and then come to the same conclusion. Wouldn't you say that's scientific? It is alot more scientific then those who have never experimented with those techniques. In my mind they have no right to comment on such things if they have never tried it long enough themselves. Its the same as going online and listening to a scientist and believing their claim. Except you never tried it for yourself. I meditate everyday and can say with my little experience that everything they have said thus far is true.

I'm not asking you to either. Let's start with you admitting that you have no credible evidence and that you should stop presenting these claims as truth. What you personally believe is your business, but claiming that said belief is a universal truth is another matter altogether.

I won't admit that because I know it is credible evidence. You just want to deny it. I'm not here to say this is the way and that's it. I wanted to state my belief but since you really want to get into a debate about it, which I tried to avoid, then I guess I'll have to respond.

There you go with that straw-man again.
I never said they were lying. I said they were delusional.
Difference.

The delusional ones are the ones that claim things are the way they are without their own internal experimentation. To get beyond the body you must go to the source of your consciousness within. I'm talking about your life force that comes in from the medulla and down through your spine all the way through your organs, veins, and nerve endings. Yogi's reverse this process by redirecting that life force back up the spine with a breathing technique. I'm sure some scientists have realized that life force is connected with the breath. If one can reverse the flow of energy from their organs and five senses back up the spine they can in time withdraw their consciousness from their body. Only yogis would know this is true, yet you without any experience in this matter want to call them delusional. You cannot say this without trying this yourself.

I tend to define reality based on evidence and empiricism and so far you have presented none, so no, I don't think you have much chance of convincing me.
However, I've been here before and it always baffles me that believers in these things always sees a discussion as a way of making someone else believe what they believe, and if they don't see that happening they withdraw. Has it ever occurred to you that you might be the one who is wrong? That perhaps the purpose of the discussion is for you to gain more insight, not for you to deliver it?
At least I am open to the idea that I might be wrong about what happens after I die. Show me some solid evidence and I'll spin on a dime and change my mind.

I know I am not wrong because I have experience on my side while you have none. The only insight I need is from my Enlightened Guru, and their Guru's. Then to have that insight backed by meditational experiences is all the insight I need.

Like I said before you can believe what you want. I am never here to convert anyone although I do wish people would get off their blind claims and begin to explore inwardly and then begin to see for themselves that there is something different about Yoga techniques that everything else fails to uncover. They would know in time like I do that Saints speak the truth.

You are looking in the wrong places. Words and stories will never get you the evidence you are looking for. Scientists who claim they know what a spiritual experience is obviously don't know what one is like if they are comparing the God Helmet experiences to spiritual experiences. I implore you and everyone to look beyond words, books, and debate forums. God is inside and through certain techniques like Kriya Yoga you can then begin to see for yourself that there is a whole world within that you might not ever know otherwise.

 

[Raithie]

No point in fearing something you can not escape.

So there's no point in fearing being tortured for eternity, presuming it was inevitable.

Do I fear certain ways of dying? Sure, I'm not fond of immolating for instance. I don't fear nothingness either. Perhaps that has to do with the level of suffering already bequeathed to me and my resultant cynicism but oblivion is the ultimate in peace and quiet as it is the cessation of everything.

That's the part that gets me. I love everything and would prefer if it didn't end, atleast not as soon as a human lifetime.

 

[Raithie]

I don't know how I accept it so easily. I kind of wonder the opposite- why people fear it at all. I guess I just don't have the same clinging for life.
The point I was trying to make about sleeping is that, during a cycle of sleep without dreams, there is no consciousness. So in terms of consciousness, it's the same as death. And yet it's not an unpleasant experience. It's simply the lack of an experience. Yes, you wake up. But if you didn't wake up, you wouldn't complain, because there's nothing to complain about, and there is no you.

I understand that after death I won't care. My lack of existence will take care of that. It's the fact that I'm alive now, that I can predict its happening and recoil at the idea of my non existence whilst I am alive. I thoroughly enjoy existing. It's an astronomically rare privilige.

Alas, I must accept it - but that doesn't make the thought any nicer.

 

[Raithie]

Of course, it's in your DNA to seek survival. We're hardwired to avoid dying.

Yes, we're wired to fear death in order to avoid it. However, although that must play a role in my fear, I think it has more to do with the fact that I'm a sentient being that can ponder upon death as something more than to be avoided at all costs. I can realize what it is, timeless nothingness, and that's where my real fear dwells.

But the title of your thread is "I fear nothingness". Why? You won't be there to experience nothingness. Maybe the title "I fear dying" would be more accurate.

I know I won't be there. I stated that in the OP and many other times throughout this thread. The point is that I am alive now to fear it. From the perspective of a definite something, I fear nothingness, because that's what death is.

 

[waitasec]

So you're saying you wouldn't fear being tortured for eternity, as long as it was inevitable.

That's the part that gets me. I love everything and would prefer if it didn't end, atleast not as soon as a human lifetime.

is that why you are afraid of dying? because you fear that hell may be what is in store for you?


it seems as though you think there is a god but you don't agree with his tyrannical ways and therefore you may go to hell for not agreeing...
am i close?

 

[Raithie]

is that why you are afraid of dying? because you fear that hell may be what is in store for you?

No, ofcourse not. You claimed: "No point in fearing something you can not escape.", so I simply proposed if Hell was unavoidable, you would not fear it - because you "can not escape" from it, utilizing your line of reasoning.

it seems as though you think there is a god but you don't agree with his tyrannical ways and therefore you may go to hell for not agreeing...
am i close?

Not in the slightest. I'm an atheist.

 

[LuisDantas]

Maybe you have a phobia triggered by thoughts about non-existence? Have you ever felt afraid of falling sleep or of otherwise losing consciousness?

 

[LuisDantas]

"Something out there" provides your life with meaning beyond sleeping, eating, defecating, walking around, having sex, sleeping, eating ....

Maybe the cognitive dissonance here is too great for there to be understanding between us, I don't know.

I would expect a Christian to have a fair idea of how precious it is to be capable of love. There is no need for "something out there". Love is possible here and now.

 

[bowingtoGod]

I used to fear death quite a bit. I was atheist for most of my life but then one day I was like O__O
death...
oh well. I just thought what happens happens.

 

[waitasec]

No, ofcourse not. You claimed: "No point in fearing something you can not escape.", so I simply proposed if Hell was unavoidable, you would not fear it - because you "can not escape" from it, utilizing your line of reasoning.


Not in the slightest. I'm an atheist.

that was MaybeSpartacus that said "no point in fearing something you can't escape", and MaybeSpartacus is an atheist too...


but i just found it interesting that you brought up eternal suffering, unless i'm missing something...

i also had this fear of dying, i would wake up in the middle of the night in a panic, "this is going to end, my life will end one day", i totally understand that fear and i want to let you know that this is a part of your enlightenment of you becoming aware of your being. where you start and where you end. and this energy you feel, this fear, can be channeled onto something else instead of creating this feedback that will only emit this loud horrific sound in your body, "i am going to die!!"
i am speaking from the other side of this very same fear.

i don't know if you read an earlier post of mine in this thread about jill bolte taylor, but i highly recommend it.