I fear nothingness

[Raithie]

Well, you DID start a thread on the subject, which does appear quite "dwellish."

Yes, I was curious of peoples stances towards it. That doesn't change the fact that I don't dwell on it "for the most part".

Trust me, in the half-century of my life, I think my life is pretty long. I've even returned to school after some 30+ years do grab some degrees so I'll ahve a good paying job until I retire.

Maybe for you, but I could definitely do with longer time. I'd love to watch science progress, watch space exploration advance, live alongside the technology and knowledge of the future. That would be pretty incredible. (And of course, the whole continuing to exist, thing...)

That it does, tho I am a theist who believes in reencarnation.

It must be comforting to have such a safety net like that to fall back on.

 

[CarlinKnew]

No, I haven't.

You seem to be missing the point. As I stated in the OP, I am aware that once I have succumbed to death, I will obviously be unaware of my passing, or anything, for that matter. But since I am alive now, I'd like to continue on existing. Since I am alive now, there is something to be afraid of. Since I am alive now, I've realized how amazing existence is and that I most definitely don't want it to end. I know at one stage it will, but that doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

Of course, it's in your DNA to seek survival. We're hardwired to avoid dying. But the title of your thread is "I fear nothingness". Why? You won't be there to experience nothingness. Maybe the title "I fear dying" would be more accurate.

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

No I don't. Life is too short to be afraid.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

I feel bad for people who think we fall into nothingness after death. It's quite a crazy way to live and belief in my mind. I've been brought up from a young age to believe that we go to an astral world after we die in where depending on your level of consciousness in the living; brings you to a astral plane that matches you and your karma. I believe this astral world is full of colors, light and sound that our 5 sense perception cannot fully see or grasp. This place is more beautiful beyond our comprehension. Our bodies are made of energy and we can travel by light from one astral planet to the next. We can then manifest whatever we desire as we see everything as energy. We can also put on any form we want and think of for ourselves as well. Its kind of like that movie "What dreams may come" with Robin Williams. Except its less of a physical and gross existance. The time spent in that pain free and beautiful heavenly like realm depending on your Karma is exponentially longer than your time here on earth. Once they rest enough they go back and reincarnate again.

I believe this to be true because my line of Guru's and saints all have said the same thing and my father and many disciples on this path have had meditation experiences where they have visited this astral plane. Not to mention all the testimonies of people dying and seeing a light when they die but then return. To me there is to much evidence to go against dying into nothingness. I've always been sure there is more to our existance. The only reason I'm afraid of death is being separated from my loved ones, and not living the life I should have before I die. Other than that it doesn't scare me much at all.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I feel bad for people who think we fall into nothingness after death.

I don't think we fall into anything. But there is no reason to think that there is anything after death and I'm not about to base huge parts of my life on a completely unsubstantiated claim.

It's quite a crazy way to live and belief in my mind.

Right back at ya!

I've been brought up from a young age to believe that we go to an astral world after we die in where depending on your level of consciousness in the living; brings you to a astral plane that matches you and your karma. <snipped> Except its less of a physical and gross existance. The time spent in that pain free and beautiful heavenly like realm depending on your Karma is exponentially longer than your time here on earth. Once they rest enough they go back and reincarnate again.

And why would you think this, apart from being taught to believe to believe it from a young age. I am tempted to call it indoctrination, but I'll withhold that for now.

I believe this to be true because my line of Guru's and saints all have said the same thing

And what evidence do they have for this belief?

and my father and many disciples on this path have had meditation experiences where they have visited this astral plane.

Nothing that cannot be achieved by the use of the God Helmet (God helmet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) or the recreational drug of your choice.

Not to mention all the testimonies of people dying and seeing a light when they die but then return.

Again, this can be recreated in a lab and the evidence points to it being a natural effect of your brain shutting down.

To me there is to much evidence to go against dying into nothingness.

I would love to see that evidence.

I've always been sure there is more to our existance.

Why?

 

[Kriya Yogi]

I don't think we fall into anything. But there is no reason to think that there is anything after death and I'm not about to base huge parts of my life on a completely unsubstantiated claim.

There is no reason to believe that we cease to exist after this life either, so in essence your still having a belief pretty much based on nothing but other atheistic views. The only difference is my view actually has testimonies and witnesses and yours does not.

And why would you think this, apart from being taught to believe to believe it from a young age. I am tempted to call it indoctrination, but I'll withhold that for now.

It's not indoctrination if I accept it as my belief even when I'm old enough to make my own decisions because it makes utter sense to me. I was never ever forced to believe something I didn't want to. I went to church from a young age because I liked our beliefs. Also I've heard plenty of stories where people are forced to believe in lets say catholic beliefs but because they dont like some of the teachings they go and find something that suits them better.

And what evidence do they have for this belief?

Direct Perception. Hundreds of saints have experienced this. There is no way they are all lying.

Nothing that cannot be achieved by the use of the God Helmet (God helmet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) or the recreational drug of your choice.

These are experiences without any outer or brain influence. True spiritual experiences that comes from superconsciousness. You can choose to believe what you want. Yogi's from different ages and paths have all claimed the same thing. Once again they all can't be lying.

Again, this can be recreated in a lab and the evidence points to it being a natural effect of your brain shutting down.

These experiences have nothing to do with the brain.

I would love to see that evidence.

The only way you could see that evidence is to experience it for yourself. I suggest you read about people who have died and then come back. Bodies literally flat line for minutes and then their souls come back to testify that there is more beyond this life and body. I would say that's enough for me to know this body is not our only existance.

Why?

All the reasons I've already pointed out. My own meditation experiences and others. While atheists like to claim beliefs out of no internal spiritual experimentation, Yogi's actually make the time to experiment within where God and our soul exists. It makes no sense to believe something without evidence to back your claim, and I know personally that there is more evidence backing after life than nothingness.

What is your reasoning to believe there is nothing after this life? It seems like this is a baseless assumption that can cause unneeded fear.

 

[Penumbra]

When you sleep, you wake up. If sleep was permanent, I'd fear sleep.

Existing is awesome, and now that I'm alive, I want to continue on doing so. Once I die, I won't notice it - but since I'm here now, I'd rather not diminish into an eternal nothing. I love being.

How can you accept non-existence so easily?

I don't know how I accept it so easily. I kind of wonder the opposite- why people fear it at all. I guess I just don't have the same clinging for life.

The point I was trying to make about sleeping is that, during a cycle of sleep without dreams, there is no consciousness. So in terms of consciousness, it's the same as death. And yet it's not an unpleasant experience. It's simply the lack of an experience. Yes, you wake up. But if you didn't wake up, you wouldn't complain, because there's nothing to complain about, and there is no you.

What is your reasoning to believe there is nothing after this life? It seems like this is a baseless assumption that can cause unneeded fear.

It shouldn't cause fear because it's not anything to be afraid of. The fact that so many people seem to fear it for some reason is primarily why so many different conceptions of afterlives exist in different cultures.

The reasoning for many atheists is that there simply is no good evidence for consciousness to persist after the body dies. Consciousness arises due to our brains sending signals back and forth through the physical neuron structure. When this shuts down, consciousness is no more. It's like smashing a computer to bits and wondering where Windows is. It's nowhere, because the data is lost due to the physical destruction of the computer.

-There is no good evidence that anything other than the physical brain provides us with consciousness.
-There is no good scientific evidence of an afterlife. For all the people that claim stuff (and claims that contradict with each other, I might add), there still simply isn't any proof.

 

[jarofthoughts]

The only difference is my view actually has testimonies and witnesses and yours does not.

First off, witness accounts and personal anecdotes are considered the weakest form of evidence in science, if it is considered evidence at all.
Secondly, I'm not the one making a claim here. I merely said that there is no reason to believe that there is an afterlife.

It's not indoctrination if I accept it as my belief even when I'm old enough to make my own decisions because it makes utter sense to me. I was never ever forced to believe something I didn't want to.

Yes, it is still indoctrination if you were uniformly told to believe one "truth" about the world from a young age. All children wish to please their parents/guardians, and thus they usually will want to listen and believe.
Childhood dogmas are hard to shake off and if given a child to indoctrinate it would be easy to make them believe, for instance, that the colour pink is bad, even as an adult.

Direct Perception. Hundreds of saints have experienced this. There is no way they are all lying.

As mentioned, if considered evidence at all, this is the weakest form of evidence in science. And I didn't say they were lying. I'm sure they believed they saw what they said they saw. I'm just saying that what they saw, or think they saw, were more likely to be hallucinations, perhaps formed by wishful thinking.

These are experiences without any outer or brain influence. True spiritual experiences that comes from superconsciousness. You can choose to believe what you want. Yogi's from different ages and paths have all claimed the same thing. Once again they all can't be lying.

These kinds of sights are well documented and it is strange then that we can reproduce the same experiences by physically influencing the brain.

These experiences have nothing to do with the brain.

And yet, by manipulating the brain we can recreate these experiences.

The only way you could see that evidence is to experience it for yourself.

Oh, I have had hallucinations. But unlike these yogis, or whatever you call them, I did not believe my fevered/drugged/influenced brain.

I suggest you read about people who have died and then come back. Bodies literally flat line for minutes and then their souls come back to testify that there is more beyond this life and body. I would say that's enough for me to know this body is not our only existance.

Again, we can reproduce these experiences and they have nothing to do with anything spiritual and everything to do with a brain under duress.

All the reasons I've already pointed out. My own meditation experiences and others.

Which count for nothing. If I told you I have an invisible dragon living in my apartment, would you believe me?

While atheists like to claim beliefs out of no internal spiritual experimentation, Yogi's actually make the time to experiment within where God and our soul exists.

At least that is what they believe, or, I'm sure, at least in some cases, would like people to believe. That is not evidence however.

It makes no sense to believe something without evidence to back your claim, and I know personally that there is more evidence backing after life than nothingness.

Again, I am not making the claim that there absolutely and certainly is no afterlife. I'm just saying that there is no reason to think there is.

What is your reasoning to believe there is nothing after this life?

Utter and complete lack of evidence.

It seems like this is a baseless assumption that can cause unneeded fear.

It's the same reason you won't believe in my invisible dragon. Lack of evidence. And that is the best reason in the world to disbelieve something.
Also, I am not afraid. Why should I fear non-existence?

 

[Kriya Yogi]

First off, witness accounts and personal anecdotes are considered the weakest form of evidence in science, if it is considered evidence at all.
Secondly, I'm not the one making a claim here. I merely said that there is no reason to believe that there is an afterlife.



Yes, it is still indoctrination if you were uniformly told to believe one "truth" about the world from a young age. All children wish to please their parents/guardians, and thus they usually will want to listen and believe.
Childhood dogmas are hard to shake off and if given a child to indoctrinate it would be easy to make them believe, for instance, that the colour pink is bad, even as an adult.



As mentioned, if considered evidence at all, this is the weakest form of evidence in science. And I didn't say they were lying. I'm sure they believed they saw what they said they saw. I'm just saying that what they saw, or think they saw, were more likely to be hallucinations, perhaps formed by wishful thinking.



These kinds of sights are well documented and it is strange then that we can reproduce the same experiences by physically influencing the brain.



And yet, by manipulating the brain we can recreate these experiences.



Oh, I have had hallucinations. But unlike these yogis, or whatever you call them, I did not believe my fevered/drugged/influenced brain.



Again, we can reproduce these experiences and they have nothing to do with anything spiritual and everything to do with a brain under duress.



Which count for nothing. If I told you I have an invisible dragon living in my apartment, would you believe me?



At least that is what they believe, or, I'm sure, at least in some cases, would like people to believe. That is not evidence however.



Again, I am not making the claim that there absolutely and certainly is no afterlife. I'm just saying that there is no reason to think there is.



Utter and complete lack of evidence.



It's the same reason you won't believe in my invisible dragon. Lack of evidence. And that is the best reason in the world to disbelieve something.
Also, I am not afraid. Why should I fear non-existence?

Well I came on here to share my beliefs. You can choose to believe what you want. I rather believe enlightened beings that have given the time and spiritually experimented than atheists that only experiment things in the brain or physical aspects of this world. If they can't compare their experimentation to direct divine perceptions then they don't know what a true spiritual experience is and therefore cannot compare or claim it as such.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

The reasoning for many atheists is that there simply is no good evidence for consciousness to persist after the body dies. Consciousness arises due to our brains sending signals back and forth through the physical neuron structure. When this shuts down, consciousness is no more. It's like smashing a computer to bits and wondering where Windows is. It's nowhere, because the data is lost due to the physical destruction of the computer.

-There is no good evidence that anything other than the physical brain provides us with consciousness.
-There is no good scientific evidence of an afterlife. For all the people that claim stuff (and claims that contradict with each other, I might add), there still simply isn't any proof.

Ok then what about people who have died and have been resuscitated to their body and have said to have had consciousness without their brain?

 

[TashaN]

Do you fear death? Why, why not?

My position is yes: I fear nothingness.

This is probably directed at atheists in particular, but I'm interested in all responses.

I get that in death, you're no longer conscious and thus you cannot fear it once you have passed (unless you believe in an afterlife of some sort...). But, now that I am alive - I want to continue on living, and I find ceasing to be quite a terrifying thought. The link above explains my stance more thoroughly, so please don't just quote Mark Twain or Isaac Asimov.

I think there is no purpose in life if people would just end up getting born and die, born and die, born and die. There must be something out there, a purpose, and an endless life, on the after life.

 

[Penumbra]

Ok then what about people who have died and have been resuscitated to their body and have said to have had consciousness without their brain?

When a person begins to die, the brain begins to shut down, and crazy stuff happens. Even without death, people experience hallucinations.

People from different cultures experience different archetypes unique to their culture, and sometimes they totally contradict one another.

My father died in a hospital once and was revived by a team of doctors, and he said it was just like being asleep. His consciousness ceased when he slipped under. So experiences vary.

 

[Penumbra]

I think there is no purpose in life if people would just end up getting born and die, born and die, born and die. There must be something out there, a purpose, and an endless life, on the after life.

I don't see how an endless life results in purpose.

 

[Tiapan]

When you go for an operation these days you lie on a trolley a doctor has a chat with you as he quietly IV injects a sedative, and the next thing you know you are waking up in a ward post-operatively. The point I am making is that during the operation I was not conscious of any thing it seemed like a short time between chatting with the doctor and waking up. It could have been hours or days between the two events I would not know the difference.

I used to ponder the nothingness question and realized that because I would not be conscious of it, I would not notice it. It could be billions of years and I would not know the difference, but in my philosophy I never wake up. I just become part of that which my once privileged sentient self saw as a thing which I once called the "universe".

Cheers

 

[TashaN]

I don't see how an endless life results in purpose.

It's not the endless itself which is resulting in a purpose, but the endlessness is just part of the equation. For instance, i don't see a point in having evil in this world if there is no hereafter. When evil people die without being punished, there must be a place where they will have to face the consequences of their actions in this life.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Well I came on here to share my beliefs. You can choose to believe what you want. I rather believe enlightened beings that have given the time and spiritually experimented than atheists that only experiment things in the brain or physical aspects of this world. If they can't compare their experimentation to direct divine perceptions then they don't know what a true spiritual experience is and therefore cannot compare or claim it as such.

I notice that you not, in fact, address any of my points. If this is so clear cut to you, I don't see why that should be.
As for spiritual experiences, you people first have to present evidence that there even is something like a supernatural spirit and that there in fact is anything besides physical reality.

Ok then what about people who have died and have been resuscitated to their body and have said to have had consciousness without their brain?

I addressed just this point several times above, but apparently you chose to ignore it.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

I notice that you not, in fact, address any of my points. If this is so clear cut to you, I don't see why that should be.
As for spiritual experiences, you people first have to present evidence that there even is something like a supernatural spirit and that there in fact is anything besides physical reality.



I addressed just this point several times above, but apparently you chose to ignore it.

Well I really didn't want to get into a huge debate with anyone. I realized that it would just be a circular argument that probably wouldn't go anywhere so I saved us some time. Arguing about these things with words will never change anyone's mind that is already basically made up. You will just make up excuses for your own mind that all these spiritual experiences are mental chloroform when in fact they are beyond the mind. There have been many cases where Yogi's stop there breath and go out of their body to realms we haven't even dreamt of. There are things in this universe or existance that we cannot cognize with our limited experience. Sooner or later more and more people including atheists will begin to experiment with Yogic techniques and then your evidence will be there. Until then words or testimonies won't do any good. I for one cannot deny my experiences, my fathers, all my friends, fellow disciples, and my Guru's words on such matters. I know they wouldn't lie about such things, and neither would my dharmic Guru, and his dharmic Guru, and the ones before him, and the ones before them. All of which have said there is sooooooooo much more than just this life. Here I go again though wasting my time, trying to explain something that couldn't possibly convince you. The good thing is spiritual reality exists whether atheists or anyone believe they exist or not so everyone still has inevitable hope beyond this life. Believe what you want though, it won't change reality so to each his own I guess.

 

[Kriya Yogi]

When a person begins to die, the brain begins to shut down, and crazy stuff happens. Even without death, people experience hallucinations.

People from different cultures experience different archetypes unique to their culture, and sometimes they totally contradict one another.

My father died in a hospital once and was revived by a team of doctors, and he said it was just like being asleep. His consciousness ceased when he slipped under. So experiences vary.

Well there have been many stories including some from my father where they can stop the breath and literally leave their body. My father and many disciples float above looking at their bodies meditating and then soar above through their house and into the sky and then by light they immediately travel to astral worlds if they want. I know it sounds like hocus pocus, but they literally remember stopping the breath so in essence they experienced death but in a more temporary experience.

There was a story of a famous Yogi that wanted to prove to some doubters his ability to escape the body and was not tied to his body. He left it in meditation and then they buried his body. They waited days and then weeks until they finally uncovered it and when they got the body out he returned to it and breath came back in the body. There are many accounts and true stories like this one.

 

[MaybeSpartacus]

Do you fear death? Why, why not?

No point in fearing something you can not escape. Do I fear certain ways of dying? Sure, I'm not fond of immolating for instance. I don't fear nothingness either. Perhaps that has to do with the level of suffering already bequeathed to me and my resultant cynicism but oblivion is the ultimate in peace and quiet as it is the cessation of everything.

 

[EverChanging]

I don't believe in consciousness after the death of the brain, either, although I wonder, if past, present, and future are illusions, is there some sense in which everything that ever has been and will be is, now? But maybe that is beside the point....

I fear certain ways of dying. Sometimes I may feel a bit of unease about death, but more because I haven't accomplished enough rather than fear of death itself, and suicide is just wrong to me, barring certain circumstances. Often, I look forward to death as a long and peaceful rest and am thankful that I won't have to go through this ordeal of life again, as wonderful as it has, in brief moments, been.

I suggest reading accounts by people who have come near death and read up on the scientific literature as well, not as indicative of an afterlife, but what the dying brain actually experiences. If you're in college, take a class on death and dying. When given the chance to age and grow closer to death naturally, humans seem to make peace with it, instinctively. Death can be a peaceful thing, a beautiful thing. It doesn't always have to be bad. The human life cycle is not complete without it.