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I Don't Know Anymore: TRADITIONIS CUSTODES

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
It has just come to my attention that Pope Francis has abrogated Summorum Pontificum. If I understand correctly, the pope has placed severe restrictions on the continued use of the Tridentine Mass. The message I derive from reading Pope Francis' decree is that outside limited permissions granted by local bishops and the Holy See ready availability to the Tridentine Mass is to cease.

The justification behind this decree is the claim that the greater availability of the Tridentine Mass has only made traditionalist Catholics more hostile to the Mass of Paul VI and Vatican II, exacerbating division in the Church, so for the sake of unity this availability is to be curtailed. But of course, liberal and modernist hostility to the Church's moral teaching is to continue unopposed. No, traditionalists who actually believe the faith are the real threat.

In any case, even though this decree does not affect me directly (I attend the Ordinariate) I am nonetheless angry to the point of feeling ill. Dismayed to the point that I am seriously questioning whether I can even maintain a Catholic faith anymore. I am not sure I can take these people seriously anymore. This burning train wreck of an institution and the incompetent people who run it are a meme at this point. The sex scandals, the financial corruption, the Pachamamas, the mass graves and now (the straw on the camel's back) the taking away of an ancient and beautiful liturgy because it affronts the ideological and aesthetic preferences of the current pope and the bulk of the Roman Rite episcopate.

Granted, I have been harboring doubts about the claims of Roman Catholicism to absolute truth for quite a while now. The big hit came in confronting the possibility that half the New Testament is a forgery, at least if modern biblical scholars are correct. But also my growing abhorrence to the idea that adherence to this one religion is necessary if you wish not to be tortured for all eternity.

But I am starting to rant. I think what is really getting to me is the notion that my religion should be defined by the whims of whatever man happens to hold this one office. One pope says that such a venerable and ancient tradition of the Church cannot suddenly be harmful or forbidden. And his successor then says the opposite. Such a venerable and ancient tradition of the Church is harmful and thus forbidden. (Or rather constrained to highly restricted accessibility). Is the pope to soon restrict the Ordinariate liturgy, seeing as it is similar to the Tridentine Mass? Probably not, but the mere fact he could, even on mere whim, comes across as outrageous.

It is possible that those who are given to such tendencies may intensify their “rejection of the Church” now that their preferred liturgical expression has been curtailed. While Pope Francis is certainly aware of this, it is his view that such Catholics “need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II.”
Pope Francis’ Traditionis Custodes: Five Consequences of the New Motu Proprio Curtailing the Latin Mass

No, I will not. I grew up under that liturgy and it never inspired an iota of reverence or faith from me. As the young people say, it was usually cringe. I came back to the Catholic faith in large part due to the beauty of the traditional liturgy. The beauty of tradition. I do not care if my utter indifference to the Novus Ordo boomer Mass is an affront the feelings of the liberal clergy. That liturgy is not what inspired my faith to begin with. I need beauty in my religion, I need ritual reverence, not a mid twentieth century contrivance artificially held as eternally sacrosanct by a rapidly aging liberal hierarchy.

I am not at this point going renounce Catholicism. I would hurt many family members were I to do so. But the temptation has never been stronger. My desire to practice is almost gone at this point. I don't know what to believe anymore. It seems to me the religion I found is not the religion the institutional Church wants maintained. Everything before Vatican II is to be left to the dustbin of history. But I am not sure I at all want what the 'modern church' is selling.
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
What's the Tridentine Mass?

(Apologizing ahead of time for my ignorance.)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I'm sorry this is happening. What are your thoughts on Orthodoxy? Personally I find that they retained many more ancient traditions of Christianity than Catholicism has. A fair number of Western Catholics and Protestants are becoming Orthodox.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not a Catholic but I hear you, bro.

It's very hard to find Traditionalist Christianity almost anywhere in the West these days and I don't think many in the clergy realise that young folks actually want Traditionalism, not some watered down nonsense.

As I said to someone else already, low church is no church. Give us back our traditions.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I do believe language is not a relevant matter, when it deals with Catholic tradition.
Catholics should be free to express themselves in their own language, and if some parishes prefer the Tridentine Mass, it should be allowed.
But most Catholics do prefer masses in their own national language, and I think it is the people who decides. Populus decidit. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
So there are people who are angry that priest don't repeat verbatim, without much understanding of it, medieval Latin during ceremonial to a crowd who probably never even learned the slightest bit of grammar of medieval Latin because "Latin sounds pretty"? It's a mass not a spectacle. You are supposed to know what's going on and what's being said.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
So there are people who are angry that priest don't repeat verbatim, without much understanding of it, medieval Latin during ceremonial to a crowd who probably never even learned the slightest bit of grammar of medieval Latin because "Latin sounds pretty"? It's a mass not a spectacle. You are supposed to know what's going on and what's being said.
I think you're missing the point, though. It is a spectacle, and those who go enjoy it - knowing Latin or not. These are likely folks who attend Masses regularly in their own tongues and are going as it's a truly old Tradition they want to be part of. Many of them will likely be so familiar with it that much of it will be intelligible to them anyway. Same repetitions, different tongue.
 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
That's why I maintain no religion today is reminiscent of its orginal.

That quite a natural development. Religions typically have the same problem as archeology has. We can look at what we believe is the history but we can't really experience the origin of the religion with the same mental maps as the ones who were present then.

Even the documents can be skewed because of the problem of translation not to mention the human tendency to pretend to know what was meant and changing the wording just slightly to reflect the judgement of those who came later.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I'm sorry this is happening. What are your thoughts on Orthodoxy? Personally I find that they retained many more ancient traditions of Christianity than Catholicism has. A fair number of Western Catholics and Protestants are becoming Orthodox.
Eastern Orthodoxy is attractive in that sense. Their fidelity to form is incredible. But Orthodoxy is rife with problems of its own. The schism between Moscow and Constantinople is just one example. That and converting to spite the Roman Church would be a bad foundation for a new faith. If I am to convert to any new religion it will be from conviction, not simply because I am mad at the Catholic Church. I would rather no religion than to practice one disingenuously.

It's very hard to find Traditionalist Christianity almost anywhere in the West these days and I don't think many in the clergy realise that young folks actually want Traditionalism, not some watered down nonsense.
I think in the Catholic case many do realise it. And they're going to do everything in their power to clamp down on it.

Not that long ago there was a notable Jesuit calling for the Church to forbid young people (anyone born after Vatican II) from attending the Tridentine Mass. The ultimate goal being the complete extinction of the old liturgy with a decade or two once all those old enough to attend it have died. He now has his wish, kinda.

Catholics should be free to express themselves in their own language, and if some parishes prefer the Tridentine Mass, it should be allowed.
It is no longer allowed.

But most Catholics do prefer masses in their own national language, and I think it is the people who decides. Populus decidit. Vox Populi, Vox Dei.
No, the pope has decided that the people have no say in the matter. The Tridentine Mass is to be so restricted that very few who want it will have access to it. A magnanimous bishop or two may allow the occasional Mass, but most won't. It is also now forbidden to offer the Tridentine Mass in any parish church full stop.

So there are people who are angry that priest don't repeat verbatim, without much understanding of it, medieval Latin during ceremonial to a crowd who probably never even learned the slightest bit of grammar of medieval Latin because "Latin sounds pretty"? It's a mass not a spectacle. You are supposed to know what's going on and what's being said.
Most people who go to the Latin Mass understand the liturgy, yet alone Catholicism, far better than the average Novus Ordo attendee, most of whom deny the real presence. The 'no one understands the Latin Mass' is a bunk argument. I have a Latin/English missal and understand the ritual well enough to have no issue in following the old liturgy. Even if my understanding of the Latin itself is far from fluent. I have even altar served and taught others how to altar serve at a liturgy very close in form to the Tridentine Mass.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
No, the pope has decided that the people have no say in the matter. The Tridentine Mass is to be so restricted that very few who want it will have access to it. A magnanimous bishop or two may allow the occasional Mass, but most won't. It is also now forbidden to offer the Tridentine Mass in any parish church full stop.
.
As I was saying, both Masses should be allowed.
I guess they are already allowed.
That said, the Church is an assembly of people .
The People want it to be in English.
To understand what is said.

PS. I guess everyone here knows what I think of Bergoglio.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
...... It's very hard to find Traditionalist Christianity almost anywhere in the West these days and I don't think many in the clergy realise that young folks actually want Traditionalism, not some watered down nonsense. As I said to someone else already, low church is no church. Give us back our traditions.
I find there are traditions and customs that are both inside and outside of Scripture.- Isaiah 29:13
People distained Jesus because he put down traditions or customs outside of Scripture as wrong - Matthew 15:9
So, to me ' Traditional Christianity ' would be 1st-century Christian teachings as found in Scripture - Mark 7:7
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The People want it to be in English. To understand what is said..
Back in the 60's when the Latin was dropped one classmate said to me how upset she was the Latin was dropped.
When I asked why (?) she said because the English had No meaning for her. The Latin sounded spiritual.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That's why I maintain no religion today is reminiscent of its original.
To me the 'original' would be the 1st-century teachings of Jesus as found in Scripture.
So, yes there is one religion today that directly connects to the original teachings of Jesus.
But many are on the broad road instead of the narrow path Jesus taught.
We are forewarned that MANY would come ' in Jesus' name ' but prove false at Matthew 7:21-23.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Back in the 60's when the Latin was dropped one classmate said to me how upset she was the Latin was dropped.
When I asked why (?) she said because the English had No meaning for her. The Latin sounded spiritual.
Does Latin really sound spiritual?
Honestly I would rather attend a Mass in English than one in Latin.
I am Italian and I like the Mass in Italian;)
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
So, to me ' Traditional Christianity ' would be 1st-century Christian teachings as found in Scripture - Mark 7:7

Most scriptures are late 1st century or early 2nd century and were edited and modified all the way until the 4th century where we saw the first complete scripture emerged and 2/3rd of them being condemned as apocryphal. In essence, 1st century Christians were largely based on oral traditions, not a scriptural one. The fact that only 5-10% of the population at the time knew how to read also doesn't help a scripture-based faith. Most early Christians were neither educated nor rich, including their leaders which makes for little literate people.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Most early Christians were neither educated nor rich, including their leaders which makes for little literate people.
This is where most go wrong with Catholic (including Orthodox) Christianity. It's not a scripture based faith. It's a faith based on the life and teachings of Jesus. The first believers had no Christian scriptures. It's a tradition of belief handed down. As the saying goes, The Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way. This is well known; it's not about being able to read the scriptures; it's about the belief and the message.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
This is where most go wrong with Catholic (including Orthodox) Christianity. It's not a scripture based faith. It's a faith based on the life and teachings of Jesus. The first believers had no Christian scriptures. It's a tradition of belief handed down. As the saying goes, The Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way. This is well known; it's not about being able to read the scriptures; it's about the belief and the message.

You are absolutely correct. The Christian scriptures are indeed a product of the Church and its faithful and Christianity itself wasn't born as a "scripture based religion". It was based on a oral tradition surrounding a variety of myths and legends surrounding the character of Jesus Christ and his teachings. "Scripture based religions" would not appear before the printing press and the democratization of schools.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The justification behind this decree is the claim that the greater availability of the Tridentine Mass has only made traditionalist Catholics more hostile to the Mass of Paul VI and Vatican II, exacerbating division in the Church, so for the sake of unity this availability is to be curtailed. But of course, liberal and modernist hostility to the Church's moral teaching is to continue unopposed. No, traditionalists who actually believe the faith are the real threat.

And that is absolutely true, or have you forgotten the schism post Vat II and the SSPX and their refusal to accept the authority of Vatican II? We were Church before Trent which had no more authority than Vat II. You either believe in the ONE Church or not. The days are long gone, and hopefully forever, with the laity in the role of spectator.

Everything before Vatican II is to be left to the dustbin of history.

You're not thinking this though at all. The present Eucharistic Liturgy can be traced back to 2nd century.

Beginning immediately, all celebrations of the Extraordinary Form require explicit permission of the diocesan bishop, who is instructed to “designate one or more locations” where it can be celebrated, but these are not to be “parochial churches” nor is the “the erection of new personal parishes” permitted.
This is not new.

The Latin Mass was an unparalleled reverence for the sacred. the Latin Mass was choreographed with the care and attention to detail of a Broadway performance. This care for detail, far from seeming stuffy, instead conveyed a deep and passionate love for what was holy. But like yourself those who demand the return to Latin its not just the language but the entire theology of Vat II.
Concerning the "so-called Tridentine liturgy", he writes, there is "no such thing. The Council of Trent did not 'make' a liturgy", he points out. The 1570 Missal is a revised version of the Roman Missal of about 100 years earlier, and differed only in tiny details. Pope Pius V promoted the exclusive use of the Missal to "help get rid of the uncertainties which had arisen in the confusion of liturgical movements in the Reformation period", Cardinal Ratzinger writes, noting that an exception was made at that time for liturgies that were 200 or more years old, which were permitted to co-exist with the "new" revised Missal.

"We must say to the 'Tridentines' that the Church's liturgy is alive, like the Church herself, and is always involved in a process of maturing . . . The Missal can no more be mummified than the Church herself"
 
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