I believe Judaism is absolute true

[Harel13]

Thankfully, you're not doomed

Dang, I was looking forward for a daily doomsday party.

But l do wonder what it takes to open the eyes of the blind.

Glasses, contact lenses and laser operations are some modern ways to do this.

Try praying, with sincerity

So you're insinuating that Jews never pray with sincerity the blessing we say three times a day:
"ותחזינה עינינו בשובך לציון" - "And may our eyes behold Your merciful return to Zion"?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Dang, I was looking forward for a daily doomsday party.

Glasses, contact lenses and laser operations are some modern ways to do this.

So you're insinuating that Jews never pray with sincerity the blessing we say three times a day:
"ותחזינה עינינו בשובך לציון" - "And may our eyes behold Your merciful return to Zion"?

I don't believe the two types of prayer are the same. One is for personal knowledge, the other is for national salvation.

But why does the prayer for national salvation include the word 'return'? Has your Messiah already come?

 

[Redemptionsong]

So as long as your Jesus messiah thing doesn't arrive, I'm safe? Great.

Besides the antitheses? Besides telling followers to break the sabbath? But we don't reallyt know what he said. We know what the later gospel writers claimed he said.

Yes, if it encourages said Jews to follow Jesus. Pity, really.

And when the Raelian Age of the Apocalypse comes what will you say? Yeah...that.

Here are words from Hosea that l'm sure you'll embrace.

'Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Then we shall know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.' [Hosea 6:1-3]

When was lsrael, the nation, smitten by God?
When did God begin the process of binding lsrael up?
What does the 'two day' gap imply?
If knowledge of God is the condition for being raised up, what does the rain represent?

I'm happy to offer an interpretation of this passage, but what do you understand it to mean?

 

[Harel13]

I don't believe the two types of prayer are the same. One is for personal knowledge, the other is for national salvation.

Here, then, the blessing for personal redemption:
Look upon our affliction, and defend our cause: and redeem us speedily for the sake of Your Name; because You are a Mighty Redeemer. Blessed are You [Lord], Redeemer of Israel.

But why does the prayer for national salvation include the word 'return'? Has your Messiah already come?

You do realize Jews differentiate between God and the Mashiach, right? That Mashiach is not divine?

 

[rosends]

Here are words from Hosea that l'm sure you'll embrace.

'Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Then we shall know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.' [Hosea 6:1-3]

When was lsrael, the nation, smitten by God?

Well, we are in a second exile after having been decimated and conquered, both times by divine decree. So there's that.

When did God begin the process of binding lsrael up?

The text speaks of the future, that God CAN bind us up if we return.

What does the 'two day' gap imply?

That after the destruction of 2 temples, we await the building of the third, and the national redemption that goes with it.

If knowledge of God is the condition for being raised up, what does the rain represent?

"if"? Where do you get that from? How about, "And let us know, let us strive to know the Lord: like the dawn whose going forth is sure, and He will come to us like rain, like the latter rain which satisfies the earth."
Can you show me where, in the Hebrew, you get the word "if"?
וְנֵֽדְעָ֣ה נִרְדְּפָ֗ה לָדַ֙עַת֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֔ה כְּשַׁ֖חַר נָכ֣וֹן מֹֽצָא֑וֹ וְיָב֚וֹא כַגֶּ֙שֶׁם֙ לָ֔נוּ כְּמַלְק֖וֹשׁ י֥וֹרֶה אָֽרֶץ
Because it isn't there.
The rain/salvation is healing that comes from God.

a side note:

But why does the prayer for national salvation include the word 'return'? Has your Messiah already come?

The line you were shown speaks in the second person ("your return to Zion") because it is a prayer to God. We don't pray to a messiah. God's presence left Zion to a large degree after the destruction of the first temple. We look forward to the third temple and the return of God's presence there.

 

[Rival]

Him? Is there something @Rival has forgotten to mention?

@Rival is a man Nooooooooooo cant be she is to cute to be a man

SHHHHHH!!!!

I'm clearly just a pretty boy who is no longer a Noachide. I can live with that.

@IndigoChild5559

 

[Spirit of Light]

SHHHHHH!!!!

I'm clearly just a pretty boy who is no longer a Noachide. I can live with that.

@IndigoChild5559

oh sh...i mean oh crap......

 

[firedragon]

SHHHHHH!!!!

I'm clearly just a pretty boy who is no longer a Noachide. I can live with that.

@IndigoChild5559

You are a lady my lady.

 

[Rival]

You are a lady my lady.

A girl yes, but a lady? Now that's a stretch too far

 

[firedragon]

A girl yes, but a lady? Now that's a stretch too far

One does not have to see a person to know and address someone as a lady. And as you rightly said, you are a girl, but you are a lady, my lady.

 

[PruePhillip]

I believe Judaism is absolute true.

What do you think about this? Any thoughts?

Why were the Jews in exile for 1800 years?

 

[Thief]

I believe Judaism is absolute true.

I do not.....even though myInspiration come forth as such

I don't have a religion
the dogmatic practice puts me off

all that head nodding to a blank wall.............

not for me

 

[Redemptionsong]

Here, then, the blessing for personal redemption:
Look upon our affliction, and defend our cause: and redeem us speedily for the sake of Your Name; because You are a Mighty Redeemer. Blessed are You [Lord], Redeemer of Israel.

You do realize Jews differentiate between God and the Mashiach, right? That Mashiach is not divine?

Is it not correct to say that the Spirit of the LORD rests upon the Messiah?

Isaiah 8:17,18. ' And l will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and l will look for him.
Behold, l and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in lsrael from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.'

Who do you think is the subject in this passage of scripture?
Who does the LORD hide his face from?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, we are in a second exile after having been decimated and conquered, both times by divine decree. So there's that.

The text speaks of the future, that God CAN bind us up if we return.

That after the destruction of 2 temples, we await the building of the third, and the national redemption that goes with it.

"if"? Where do you get that from? How about, "And let us know, let us strive to know the Lord: like the dawn whose going forth is sure, and He will come to us like rain, like the latter rain which satisfies the earth."
Can you show me where, in the Hebrew, you get the word "if"?
וְנֵֽדְעָ֣ה נִרְדְּפָ֗ה לָדַ֙עַת֙ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֔ה כְּשַׁ֖חַר נָכ֣וֹן מֹֽצָא֑וֹ וְיָב֚וֹא כַגֶּ֙שֶׁם֙ לָ֔נוּ כְּמַלְק֖וֹשׁ י֥וֹרֶה אָֽרֶץ
Because it isn't there.
The rain/salvation is healing that comes from God.

a side note:

The line you were shown speaks in the second person ("your return to Zion") because it is a prayer to God. We don't pray to a messiah. God's presence left Zion to a large degree after the destruction of the first temple. We look forward to the third temple and the return of God's presence there.

Not all Jews have returned from the second exile, but if one acknowledges 1948 as a staging post in the return of the diaspora then the process has begun.

Do you have any scriptural precedent for likening the 'two days' to two temples? To my understanding there is a far more likely prophetic association between a day and a thousand years. This accounts for the period of the diaspora (say 70 CE) to the present time, roughly.

I have not used the word 'if' to suggest it may not happen to the nation as a whole, but to certain individuals who do not form part of the 'remnant' of Jacob. For not all Jacob will be saved.

Therefore, knowledge of God is, we agree, the key constituent in the blessing that comes as rain from the Lord.

Is rain not the Holy Spirit of God? Is it not the Holy Spirit that gives knowledge of God?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I believe Judaism is absolute true. Why? Because Judaism is the first of the Abrahamic religion that believes in the one true God. I believe God wants us to love, serve and worship the one true God:

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6 (In the old testament/jewish Tanakh)

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:18 (In the old testament/Jewish Tanakh)

As you read above it was from the Tanakh/old testament Jesus got his teaching about you shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. And the second is like unto it, you shalt love your neighbour as yourself (Matthew 22:36-40 in the New testament).

He got that teaching from the jewish Tanakh. Jesus was a jew.

I believe that because of judaism monotheism became more and more popular in this world, because of judaism the world got the ten commandments and I believe the ten commandmands is good ethical rules and commen sense. I believe that because of judaism this world became kinder to each other and had good ethical rules. And I believe because of judaism more people of this world understood that all humans is God's creation. And that all humans are equal.

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

What do you think about this? Any thoughts?

Speaking as a devout Jew, The One True God made Himself far closer to us than commands to obey, by appearing, speaking to us and fellowshipping with us, then dying and rising--says the Bible--so that anyone trusting Yeshua will have eternal life!

 

[rosends]

Do you have any scriptural precedent for likening the 'two days' to two temples? To my understanding there is a far more likely prophetic association between a day and a thousand years. This accounts for the period of the diaspora (say 70 CE) to the present time, roughly.

we have a variety of "two" elements which are understood to refer to the loss of two temples and the two exiles and a number of threes to indicate 3 temples. We don't look for precedents to support an understanding. Any belief that some prophetic association is "far more likely" is just that, a belief.

I have not used the word 'if' to suggest it may not happen to the nation as a whole, but to certain individuals who do not form part of the 'remnant' of Jacob. For not all Jacob will be saved.

You cited a version of the text which introduced a word not found in the Hebrew and then asked a question which hinged on the presence of that word.

Therefore, knowledge of God is, we agree, the key constituent in the blessing that comes as rain from the Lord.

I'm not sure I see this as contingent, the way you word it. Look at this English version, "And let us know, let us strive to know the Lord: like the dawn whose going forth is sure, and He will come to us like rain, like the latter rain which satisfies the earth." or this one "Let us pursue obedience to the LORD, And we shall become obedient. His appearance is as sure as daybreak, And He will come to us like rain, Like latter rain that refreshes the earth.”" These are reassurances of what will happen, not conditional statements.

Is rain not the Holy Spirit of God? Is it not the Holy Spirit that gives knowledge of God?

No. Brains and hearts that people have give knowledge. Rain is an external sign of health and survival. Inventing some "holy spirit" and injecting it here makes no sense.

 

[Redemptionsong]

we have a variety of "two" elements which are understood to refer to the loss of two temples and the two exiles and a number of threes to indicate 3 temples. We don't look for precedents to support an understanding. Any belief that some prophetic association is "far more likely" is just that, a belief.

You cited a version of the text which introduced a word not found in the Hebrew and then asked a question which hinged on the presence of that word.

I'm not sure I see this as contingent, the way you word it. Look at this English version, "And let us know, let us strive to know the Lord: like the dawn whose going forth is sure, and He will come to us like rain, like the latter rain which satisfies the earth." or this one "Let us pursue obedience to the LORD, And we shall become obedient. His appearance is as sure as daybreak, And He will come to us like rain, Like latter rain that refreshes the earth.”" These are reassurances of what will happen, not conditional statements.

No. Brains and hearts that people have give knowledge. Rain is an external sign of health and survival. Inventing some "holy spirit" and injecting it here makes no sense.

Psalm 90:4. 'For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.'

This idea, developed in Jewish thinking, finds support in the writings of Peter in the New Testament.

2 Peter 3:8. 'But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.'

It makes perfect sense that Hosea 6:1-3, as inspired scripture, should contain an idea that comes not from man but from God. This allows us to see consistency in the word of God, across time and between prophets.

By interpreting the 'two days' of Hosea 6:2 as two thousand years, we are left knowing that the second exile was God's intended method for correcting Judah, 'till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face.'

According to Hosea, Judah is in the process of being 'revived' but has not been 'raised up'. I suggest that there is a gradual process involved in moving from one stage to the next. Judah, now reestablished in the land of Israel, is being revived, but has not yet come to a national knowledge of God.

I'm not inventing the Holy Spirit. For God to 'come to us' he must come as Holy Spirit, for this is the eternal nature of God. Through the Holy Spirit's presence within our hearts we come to know the Lord, just as his presence in our midst helps bond us together as one holy temple.

 

[Harel13]

Is it not correct to say that the Spirit of the LORD rests upon the Messiah?

At this point I honestly have no idea what you mean by this, because so far we've concluded that we use similar terms to describe entirely different things.

Who do you think is the subject in this passage of scripture?

You can turn this discussion into another well-chewed """debate""" between a Jew and a Christian. You pull out verses that strengthen your view, I explain why that holds water only based on Christian interpolation and the cycle begins again. Right now it seems pointless to me.

 

[Redemptionsong]

At this point I honestly have no idea what you mean by this, because so far we've concluded that we use similar terms to describe entirely different things.

You can turn this discussion into another well-chewed """debate""" between a Jew and a Christian. You pull out verses that strengthen your view, I explain why that holds water only based on Christian interpolation and the cycle begins again. Right now it seems pointless to me.

Harel13, you said, quite plainly, that the Jewish Messiah is not divine. My response to this is to suggest to you that having the Holy Spirit resting upon you (lsaiah 61:1-3 etc) actually lays a divine power and responsibility on that anointed individual. God uses men, but particularly 'my servant David' to accomplish His work on earth.

 

[rosends]

Psalm 90:4. 'For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.'

So in this verse, the term "day of yesterday" is explicitly connected to being LIKE a thousand years to God in a piece of poetry. And in the second half of the comparison, a thousand years is like an "ashmura" in the night (1/3 of the night). I notice that you don't then say that any time "ashmura" is used it means a thousand years, or even that a day is the same as 1/3 of the night. That's OK. As I said, we don't take one figurative use as prescriptive in understanding other prophetic uses (especially as Psalm 90 isn't really prophetic, but poetic).

This idea, developed in Jewish thinking, finds support in the writings of Peter in the New Testament.

But who cares about that stuff?

It makes perfect sense that Hosea 6:1-3, as inspired scripture, should contain an idea that comes not from man but from God. This allows us to see consistency in the word of God, across time and between prophets.

You are right! So the use of "2 days" is a reference to 2 thirds of the night, just like it says a day is in Psalms 90!

By interpreting the 'two days' of Hosea 6:2 as two thousand years, we are left knowing that the second exile was God's intended method for correcting Judah, 'till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face.'

That conclusion makes no sense. If the 2 days is ONLY a reference to the second exile, then we have nothing to point out the divine nature of the first exile. If the 2 days are the 2 temples and their destructions through which learn to repent so that the third day (the third temple) will make us whole.

I'm not inventing the Holy Spirit. For God to 'come to us' he must come as Holy Spirit, for this is the eternal nature of God. Through the Holy Spirit's presence within our hearts we come to know the Lord, just as his presence in our midst helps bond us together as one holy temple.

OK, you are just injecting it where it has no place. Potayto, potahto.

and also, what's a "divine power"? If every prophet has it, and the messiah is not a prophet, then the messiah doesn't have a divine power. (if you say the messiah WILL be a prophet, then you are relying on Maimonides' writings, and once you start to do that...)