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Human Cloning

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
What's the big beef with human cloning? I always hear people saying things like, "I don't like how scientists are messing around with cloning animals--it's only bringing them a couple steps closer to cloning humans, and that's just wrong!"

Most people seem to think that human cloning is wrong, but I'm wondering if anyone can actually define their reasons for feeling so. Personally, I don't have a problem with human cloning. I can't see why its necessary, and I think our scientists should be concering themselves with the many illnesses and cancers still to be cured, but in theory, I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Now, I'm not talking about cloning human embryos for stem cell research, (I understand most people's issue with this). I am talking about cloning a human and bringing it to term as a baby, just like Dolly the sheep.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
I don´t get why people would want a clone, but whatever tickles your pickle.


If cloning humans causes health problems like it does with a lot of animals I´d be very against cloning humans.
 

Fatmop

Active Member
There's little economical reason to want to clone people in a society like America - until said society gets into a war. I could see a pretty big market for dispensible, totally replaceable people there. That gets kind of tricky, ethically.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
I agree with you guys--cloning really is pretty pointless. The only way it would be useful would be to mass-clone humans to harvest their organs and blood, which I think we can all agree would never happen, and would be really, really wrong.

That said, what's wrong with cloning in general? You know that once we get the technology to do it, some billionaire is going to want to clone his dead wife, or something weird like that. If he's willing to pay the big bucks, what's so bad about it? After all, people usually have children for the same sort of selfish reasons.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Ceridwen018 asked:

What's the big beef with human cloning? I always hear people saying things like, "I don't like how scientists are messing around with cloning animals--it's only bringing them a couple steps closer to cloning humans, and that's just wrong!"

Most people seem to think that human cloning is wrong, but I'm wondering if anyone can actually define their reasons for feeling so. Personally, I don't have a problem with human cloning. I can't see why its necessary, and I think our scientists should be concering themselves with the many illnesses and cancers still to be cured, but in theory, I have no problem with it whatsoever.
Purely from a generalized and scientific discovery perspective, I have no "beef" with human cloning either. Often enough, the objection I hear expressed is that such endeavors are tantamount to "Playing God".

Ironically, like requests for specificity of objections to human cloning, similar silence is manifested upon requests for enhancement of what "Playing God" actually entails (in provided examples) - of which little, or none, are typically forthcoming.


Now, I'm not talking about cloning human embryos for stem cell research, (I understand most people's issue with this).
I don't understand the inconsistency at all.

Anti-abortion activists are virtually silent on routine IVF practices (wherein countless thousands of fertilized ova are "produced" annually, the majority of which are subsequently "disposed/destroyed". The double-standard of applicability of "motive" in validating/accepting a virtually identical outcome provided by medical abortion is stark and inescapable.

"Killing" excess/damaged fertilized ova in prospective motive to "create" a person is OK, but "Killing" fertilized ova in prospective motive to terminate an unwanted pregnancy is not OK?

Hmmmm.

I fail to see any ethical/moral distinction drawn between medical IVF technology and medical/scientific cloning technology. How is it that human desire (simple want) to "make a baby" is any more ethical/moral than medical efforts expended to potentially cure disease, congenital defects, chronic illness, and "irreparable" injury amongst the already existent and living?

I am talking about cloning a human and bringing it to term as a baby, just like Dolly the sheep.
[FWIW, "natural" human cloning happens all the time. We call these genetically identical persons "twins","triplets", etc. Human cloning has been around as longs as our species has been propagating itself. Nothing new.]

To me, your scenario presents the most challenging dilemma - not from a moral/ethical standpoint, but from a societal/legal view.
Is a "personal" clone an individual person or property? What if the clone is deliberately manipulated to grow no brain tissue (beyond those requisite for autonomic function)? Is the purposed clone "born" dead, or alive?
What if a clone of you is made without your knowledge or consent - say... an ex-wife "steals" your DNA from an old hairbrush of yours. Whom bears rightful "custody" of the clone? Can the ex-husband be compelled to pay child-support for the clone?
If a clone fails to come to term, whom bears responsibility for the failure? Is any criminal liability attached?
If a clone is contractually "conceived" by a "clone store" for a prospective parent, and said "parent" later (pre-term or live delivery) changes their mind and doesn't want the clone, then whom bears custody/responsibility of the unwanted clone? The lab/store, the former prospective parent, or the state?

There are literally hundreds of other examples both conceivable and inconceivable that accompany the prospect of feasible and viable human cloning. Most of these conundrums are within the realm of legal/civil accountability/responsibility, and while challenging, are certainly not impossible to resolve.

One inevitability is clear, and I'll quote a favored axiom:
"If it's possible, it has been done. If it's impossible, it will be done".

Human cloning will happen, if not in the U.S., then certainly somewhere else...whether or not it "makes sense" or provides merited purpose.

I agree with you guys--cloning really is pretty pointless. The only way it would be useful would be to mass-clone humans to harvest their organs and blood, which I think we can all agree would never happen, and would be really, really wrong.
Interesting.

Turning the question at hand upon you, why would cloning humans for harvesting organs and blood be "really, really wrong"? Certainly today we medically "harvest" both organs and blood from consenting donors both alive and dead. Is consent implicit in ethical/moral determinations of "what's best" (for whomever or whatever)? What if clones could be genetically modified (as suggested previously) to inhibit higher brain function and and cell development (obviating any potential conflicting issues of "consent"). What if a prospectively terminally ill patient chooses to make a clone of themselves in such a manner (to save/extend their own life)? If medical technology could provide such a resource/remedy, would it be ethically/morally responsible to deny the patient every possible care counter to their own personal wishes and lent consent?

Hmmmm....
 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
Holy clairvoyance batman! This is what I said people would be saying when I first heard about the issue! I was saying "Eventually, people will figure out that there really isn't a practical reason to clone humans," and lookie lookie! Okay, and, as for humans being cloned to harvest parts from them, uh-uh. That's a lotta trouble to go to when you can figure out how to grow the cells and work out a machine that can assemble the tissues from them, and this isn't long in coming with us already able to produce the basic tissue needed to produce a heart. What, you haven't heard of skin printing? It's right here, right now. It's even possible to create heart tissue. It's been possible to create elementary heart tissue since 1999, and MIT came up with a way of growing responsive heart tissue, using cells taken from rats, just last year.

The problem is that the "pro-lifers" make the erroneous assumption that scientists get their jollies by pissing off their god. They need to realize that's my job and let the scientists stay at work on figuring out new ways of saving lives.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Often enough, the objection I hear expressed is that such endeavors are tantamount to "Playing God".
Yes, I have heard that one too. However, I think this becomes more of a problem when you get into genetic manipulation--I want my baby to be 6'6" and have blue eyes, etc. As far as plain ol' cloning goes, I don't think it can be called "Playing God" any more than normal conception and birth can.

I don't understand the inconsistency at all.
Sure you do. Some people have problems with stem cell research like they have problems with abortion--they believe babies, humans, people, whatever, are being killed. I don't agree with them, but I understand.
Anti-abortion activists are virtually silent on routine IVF practices (wherein countless thousands of fertilized ova are "produced" annually, the majority of which are subsequently "disposed/destroyed". The double-standard of applicability of "motive" in validating/accepting a virtually identical outcome provided by medical abortion is stark and inescapable.
I agree. However, let it be known that the Catholic Church has publicly denounced IVF and those who use it.

Is a "personal" clone an individual person or property? What if the clone is deliberately manipulated to grow no brain tissue (beyond those requisite for autonomic function)? Is the purposed clone "born" dead, or alive?
You've got a knack for asking the good questions, you know that? I can think of many people who would freak at the mention of such a thing, but if it could be done, I don't see how it could be anything but beneficial.

What if a clone of you is made without your knowledge or consent - say... an ex-wife "steals" your DNA from an old hairbrush of yours. Whom bears rightful "custody" of the clone? Can the ex-husband be compelled to pay child-support for the clone?
I would say that if cloning ever became such a common procedure, there would be laws protecting people's DNA and its use. People wouldn't be able to just steal your DNA and go make a clone for some weird reason. Secondly, the only reason why men pay child support is because the children in question are as much their children as the they are the mother's. An ex-husband wouldn't have anything more to do with a woman's clone than would her sixth grade boyfriend.
If a clone fails to come to term, whom bears responsibility for the failure? Is any criminal liability attached?
This wouldn't be a problem unless abortion were illegal, of course.

If a clone is contractually "conceived" by a "clone store" for a prospective parent, and said "parent" later (pre-term or live delivery) changes their mind and doesn't want the clone, then whom bears custody/responsibility of the unwanted clone? The lab/store, the former prospective parent, or the state?
That would all have to be covered in the contract, of course. I don't see why clones should be treated any differently than 'normal' children. If a woman doesn't want the baby she's carrying in her womb, she can either give it up for adioption, or possibly abort it.

why would cloning humans for harvesting organs and blood be "really, really wrong"?
You mentioned the "manipulating the growth of the brain," idea, which is certainly very interesting. Aside from that, every human has the right to their own organs and blood, to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, etc. Clones would be humans just like all of us, so keeping them in captivity to harvest their organs and blood without their consent would be in direct violation of their most basic rights.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Ceridwen018 said:
I agree. However, let it be known that the Catholic Church has publicly denounced IVF and those who use it.
... right on C... and I'd also like to point out that the Church is a big supporter of stem cell research when the cells are harvested from adult stem cells, cord blood, etc.... as I understand it, scientists have better "luck" using these cells anyway... and this would invalidate any reason (as I understand the science-- but you know me and science:D ) for human cloning.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
s2a said:
Ceridwen018 asked:


Purely from a generalized and scientific discovery perspective, I have no "beef" with human cloning either. Often enough, the objection I hear expressed is that such endeavors are tantamount to "Playing God".

Ironically, like requests for specificity of objections to human cloning, similar silence is manifested upon requests for enhancement of what "Playing God" actually entails (in provided examples) - of which little, or none, are typically forthcoming.



I don't understand the inconsistency at all.

Anti-abortion activists are virtually silent on routine IVF practices (wherein countless thousands of fertilized ova are "produced" annually, the majority of which are subsequently "disposed/destroyed". The double-standard of applicability of "motive" in validating/accepting a virtually identical outcome provided by medical abortion is stark and inescapable.

"Killing" excess/damaged fertilized ova in prospective motive to "create" a person is OK, but "Killing" fertilized ova in prospective motive to terminate an unwanted pregnancy is not OK?

Hmmmm.

I fail to see any ethical/moral distinction drawn between medical IVF technology and medical/scientific cloning technology. How is it that human desire (simple want) to "make a baby" is any more ethical/moral than medical efforts expended to potentially cure disease, congenital defects, chronic illness, and "irreparable" injury amongst the already existent and living?


[FWIW, "natural" human cloning happens all the time. We call these genetically identical persons "twins","triplets", etc. Human cloning has been around as longs as our species has been propagating itself. Nothing new.]

To me, your scenario presents the most challenging dilemma - not from a moral/ethical standpoint, but from a societal/legal view.
Is a "personal" clone an individual person or property? What if the clone is deliberately manipulated to grow no brain tissue (beyond those requisite for autonomic function)? Is the purposed clone "born" dead, or alive?
What if a clone of you is made without your knowledge or consent - say... an ex-wife "steals" your DNA from an old hairbrush of yours. Whom bears rightful "custody" of the clone? Can the ex-husband be compelled to pay child-support for the clone?
If a clone fails to come to term, whom bears responsibility for the failure? Is any criminal liability attached?
If a clone is contractually "conceived" by a "clone store" for a prospective parent, and said "parent" later (pre-term or live delivery) changes their mind and doesn't want the clone, then whom bears custody/responsibility of the unwanted clone? The lab/store, the former prospective parent, or the state?

There are literally hundreds of other examples both conceivable and inconceivable that accompany the prospect of feasible and viable human cloning. Most of these conundrums are within the realm of legal/civil accountability/responsibility, and while challenging, are certainly not impossible to resolve.

One inevitability is clear, and I'll quote a favored axiom:
"If it's possible, it has been done. If it's impossible, it will be done".

Human cloning will happen, if not in the U.S., then certainly somewhere else...whether or not it "makes sense" or provides merited purpose.


Interesting.

Turning the question at hand upon you, why would cloning humans for harvesting organs and blood be "really, really wrong"? Certainly today we medically "harvest" both organs and blood from consenting donors both alive and dead. Is consent implicit in ethical/moral determinations of "what's best" (for whomever or whatever)? What if clones could be genetically modified (as suggested previously) to inhibit higher brain function and and cell development (obviating any potential conflicting issues of "consent"). What if a prospectively terminally ill patient chooses to make a clone of themselves in such a manner (to save/extend their own life)? If medical technology could provide such a resource/remedy, would it be ethically/morally responsible to deny the patient every possible care counter to their own personal wishes and lent consent?

Hmmmm....
Damn good points made s2a. "Is a "personal" clone an individual person or property?" I think is the crux of the sociological nightmare. I can't even begin to imagine the thought (because it is so preposterous) of a cloned 'me'; If I then have some sort of legal right to demand that he provides me with spare parts as and when, I can't even begin to imagine the sort of 'quality' of life this guy would have.

I suppose you might have an idea about restricting the brain functions, because I can't see what sort of life this guy would have...........Perhaps he could be married to the clone of my wife.......:eek:

"Human cloning will happen, if not in the U.S., then certainly somewhere else...whether or not it "makes sense" or provides merited purpose." - is, of course, spot on, and the question really is 'how soon'.

From a religious point of view (I would find it much more comfortable thinking of this whole subject as an atheist), I can't even bear to think of the ramifications...........
 

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Another point at issue is that if a clone is an exact genetic duplicate of you, then an evil spouse, say, could have you cloned, the clone hypnotized, drugged or whatever, and then eliminate you and replace you with the clone (under their control). How would one prove this had been done?

What if a clone decides he/she will "replace" the original? Whose rights trump? Does a clone have rights? Are they legally a person? Etc., etc., etc.,

(These are from old sci-fi stories)
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Hello Cerwiden018,

When I said:

Often enough, the objection I hear expressed is that such endeavors are tantamount to "Playing God".

You said:
Yes, I have heard that one too. However, I think this becomes more of a problem when you get into genetic manipulation--I want my baby to be 6'6" and have blue eyes, etc. As far as plain ol' cloning goes, I don't think it can be called "Playing God" any more than normal conception and birth can.
Do I infer incorrectly that you would consider targeted/manipulated genetic "engineering" (say for gender, or physical attributes) to be so much "Playing God"? How would such "favored/desired" genetic manipulations (tall, dark, handsome/beautiful, smart, hardy) differ from the same technology employed to repair/remedy/prevent diagnosed inherent genetic defect/disease/mutation during the gestation process (certainly few people object to prenatal surgery/treatment to repair/prevent "birth defects" today)? In other words, how does pre-selection for desirable genetic traits differ from remedy/treatment for undesirable/harmful genetic traits? If one accepts the notion of "God's Will", then certainly "interfering" with DNA coding by either personal choice or medical "necessity" must be comparable by extension to a "subversion" of "God's Will".

(This once more relates to my interest in having a believer define what they mean when they correlate an action or choice as "Playing God". I would construe "Playing God" as being counter to, or in conflict with, "God's Will (or Plan)". At what point does medical science, technology, and treatment options devolve from being in accordance with "God's Will" (ie, not "Playing God"), to being counter/conflicting to His Will (mankind "Playing God")?

Most people would agree that medicine and modern heath care are purposed in: saving lives; alleviating pain and suffering; prevention of disease/illness; and when possible, extending life to fullness and "quality" existence. When do such actions/choices in life/death medical determinations represent "Playing God", and when do they not? Why would it be ethical/moral to prevent prenatal disease/defect, but not so to effect genetic trait enhancement?

Let us suppose, just for a moment, that tomorrow a scientific revelation is manifested (DNA manipulation, biochemical/biomechanics breakthrough) that would potentially extend a normal healthy person's life for 500 years or longer. Would application of such knowledge constitute "Playing God"? Why or why not? How does the science of medicine differ in obligation, motivation, or intent in extending a heart transplant patient's life by 5-15 years, over extending another patient's useful and productive years by 100 times that amount? Would it be more ethical/moral to practically apply such a medical marvel, or to withhold it's use/knowledge and keep it a secret? Hmmmmm...

However, let it be known that the Catholic Church has publicly denounced IVF and those who use it.
Acknowledged.

But Catholic Church teachings/decrees are not strictly adhered to or lent special weight amongst a sizable portion of self-professed Catholics in the U.S.* Vatican "denouncements" are nororiously unheeded by many Catholics in the U.S. regarding abortion choice, IVF, contraception, death penalty, etc. Fair to say that the Chrsitian faith publicly denounces "sin", but that fact alone doesn't seem to prevent "sinning" on the part of Christians or heretics very much. ;-)
*Source: National Catholic Reporter - 2005 survey

You've got a knack for asking the good questions, you know that?
Ain't I a stinker? ;-)
(Pssst. You're pretty good too. ;-))

I asked:
What if a clone of you is made without your knowledge or consent - say... an ex-wife "steals" your DNA from an old hairbrush of yours. Whom bears rightful "custody" of the clone? Can the ex-husband be compelled to pay child-support for the clone?

You offered:
I would say that if cloning ever became such a common procedure, there would be laws protecting people's DNA and its use.
Don't be so sure.

Just such a case (illustrating the deficiency of extant law vs. modern technology/medicine) was recently settled here in TN. A man's ex-wife decided that she wished to have her frozen fertilized ova ("conceived" while they were still married) implanted for her prospective pregnancy. Did the ex-husband have any custodial rights or say in the use of that ova? Could the ex-wife birth the child absent his consent, and then prohibit visitation of the child from the natural father? Was the ova indeed a person or property?
In the end, a legal determination was made, and legal precedent established...but only for TN. [If interested in the proceeding's results, read this]
Similar legally problematic cases: "Who owns the ova?"


I don't see why clones should be treated any differently than 'normal' children. If a woman doesn't want the baby she's carrying in her womb, she can either give it up for adioption, or possibly abort it.
And what if technology negates the necessity of a human host in gestating either a clone or "naturally conceived/IVF" baby (it's going to happen sooner or later)? Mama need never be "pregnant - she just orders up a copy of herself, and waits for nine months while the "clone/baby store" does it's thing...unless of course, she changes her mind (ie, an "unwanted cloning"). What legal responsibility does the contracting "parent" bear to the disposition of the clone? What about the "store"? What about the State? And...if legal protections to abortion choice are repealed...then things get even worse...
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Hello Engyo,

You said:

Another point at issue is that if a clone is an exact genetic duplicate of you, then an evil spouse, say, could have you cloned, the clone hypnotized, drugged or whatever, and then eliminate you and replace you with the clone (under their control). How would one prove this had been done?

What if a clone decides he/she will "replace" the original? Whose rights trump? Does a clone have rights? Are they legally a person? Etc., etc., etc.,

(These are from old sci-fi stories)
As I am an avid fan of science/speculative-fiction stories myself, I just thought I'd lend my two cents to your hypothetical premise.

The conceivable future presents the high likelihood of human cloning as reality, but the scenario you suggest is a quantum leap forward from simple genetic duplication ("Makin' copies...").

Consider:
1) Natural, genetically identical twins, triplets, etc. are born everyday into this world (identical twins appx. 3.5 per 1000). Most are reared in the same household/environment. Yet indisputably, each twin retains and evinces their own unique personality and character - from similar tastes/behavior...to wildly divergent. Yet biologically speaking, right down to their DNA, they're "identical", correct? Well, yes and no. Yes, they share identical DNA, but from their first moments of awareness, their brains are "evolving" separately...quite literally. Studies demonstrate that each of us actually experience constant brain cell "restructuring" that is unique to the individual, and virtually impossible to duplicate in another individual.
Think of it this way: Two cars roll off the assembly line, one right after the other. They were assembled in the exact same way, by the exact same people, using the same equipment and materials. For all intents and purposes, the two cars are physically "identical". Now, one car goes to a commuter that drives 60 miles through stop-and-go traffic each day. The other "identical" car goes to a church lady that only drives five miles on Sundays. After five years, each car will evidence characteristics unique to it's own use. Assuming each has received periodic maintenance and due care, they may still appear "identical", but they will almost certainly have manifested their own distinct and observable differences in wear and tear and "driveability". And...despite either car's initial heritage, no amount of repair or restoration will be able to reclaim either's original state the day it rolled off the assembly line.

2) Bearing point 1 in mind, the concept of exacting duplication of environment/experience as manifested in the ever evolving human brain is a technology that has no foundational science or theory to even pursue. We can make identical copies of new cars, washing machines, and watches readily and effectively. But it's virtually impossible to record (and subsequently duplicate) the exacting nuances (use, wear and tear) of your foyer's grandfather clock in such a way as to make another that mirrors it's exacting operation. Sure, you can make an exacting reproduction, that mimics all of the original's internal working parts, and external dings and dents -- but it still won't be the same.

Sci-fi books/movies (and more notably within the horror genre) have always had fun with the idea of machines or phenomena that can effect "mind transference". Such is the stuff of fancy and fantasy, but the actual "science" of such is whimsical at best (not unlike time-travel machines). While true that much brain function/activity is electrical, it is also essentially chemical. Speculation (and sci-fi) have suggested the prospect of "recording" and storage of the electrical signals of brain activity for later "playback" (especially as they may relate to dreams and recent memory). While such "recordings" and transference to storage of simple electrical patterns seems straightforward enough (like a CD or DVD), it's "recording" the inseparably coinciding chemical changes that are well beyond any current serious scientific contemplation. We just ain't anywhere close to that, and won't be anytime soon.

3) At this point, all clones (of anything from mice to corn) are "born" as "babies", not fully mature-stage adults. Human clones would be no different. True enough, that advances in the study/application of certain medical therapies that involve the use of HGH (Human Growth Hormone), and other advances in hormonal studies might provide the opportunity of accelerating the prospective growth and physical maturation of a clone, reducing both the gestational period and "normal" time of pre-to-post pubescence, thus making a bigger, or even full-grown adult clone of yourself in say, 30 days (for the sake of the hypothetical)? Even if it were theoretically possible to manifest another fully grown clone of you to your current age...without your own unique and irreproducible "personality", such a clone would be, from a mental standpoint, a newborn infant - not unlike a "normal" identical twin born twenty years later (a concept that is not that far-fetched, btw, though hard to see any rationale for, say...separating identical twin fertilized ova, and freezing one, while bringing the other to gestational term - "storing" the other identical ova for another time for eventual gestation. Weird, but certainly feasible, even today).

And so, until science/technology can:
Find an exacting methodology to replicate any person's unique combination of enviornment, experience, and personality, then...
..."grow" a clone to adult stage/age that matches your own (never mind the issues of replicating your own scars, healed bones, worn teeth, alcohol-damaged liver and smoke-scarred lungs, beer belly, etc.) for appropriate transfer of your exacting personality...
...then transfer such exacting and unique "recorded" information into a nascent clone's brain to make another "you", then...

...we'll have some legitimate concerns to ponder regarding your presented hypothetical - but not before then.

Thank goodness.

But it's fun to speculate on...
...kinda spooky too.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
s2a said:
In other words, how does pre-selection for desirable genetic traits differ from remedy/treatment for undesirable/harmful genetic traits?
It doesn't differ at all, excepting of course that one is life-changing and the other frivolous.

Using genetic manipulation to prevent diseases sounds like a handy fix, and maybe it is. My only concern is, "where will it end?" In the movie "Gattaca", for those who have not seen it, genetic manipulation has become so commonplace that everyone who was born 'naturally', ie, without any genetic manipulation, is considered to be a second class citizen when placed beside those who were designed to be faster, smarter, and more attractive. It was just a movei of course, but the risk of something similar occuring in real life exists, I think. That's not to say that we should have nothing to do with genetic manipulation, only that we should tread slowly and carefully.

But Catholic Church teachings/decrees are not strictly adhered to or lent special weight amongst a sizable portion of self-professed Catholics in the U.S.*
Heh, heh--as an ex-Catholic myself, I can vouch for that.
What legal responsibility does the contracting "parent" bear to the disposition of the clone? What about the "store"? What about the State? And...if legal protections to abortion choice are repealed...then things get even worse...
This is tricky indeed. Even now, third trimester abortion is illegal due in large part to the fact that the fetus is being killed at a point in gestation when it has a 50% or greater chance of surviving outside of the womb. What will happen when scientists can remove an unwanted embryo from a mother and bring to term in a lab, versus aborting it? Honestly, I haven't the slightest idea. I should think that Americans would lean towards keeping the baby alive vs. aborting it, but what sort of social and economic consequences would that have? That's about 2 million babies being born each year without parents.

Just such a case (illustrating the deficiency of extant law vs. modern technology/medicine) was recently settled here in TN.
In this case, I would say that they both own the ova to a certain extent. If the ex-wife wanted to have the baby without her ex-husband's consent, I think that she should be allowed to do that, but that she would need to give up all claims to child support in the process. In addition, she would be allowed to deny her ex-husband his rights as a father.

If her ex-husband did give his consent though, I think that he should be granted due rights as father of the baby, including child support.

Thank you for the link though, it seems like a very interesting read!
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
as I understand it, scientists have better "luck" using these cells anyway... and this would invalidate any reason (as I understand the science-- but you know me and science
biggrin.gif
) for human cloning.
In my human genetics class here in college we studied stem cells and what not. Stem cells in adults are the worst ones scientists can get. They really want the ones from the embyro... Lets put it this way....

You have a stem cell, this is what scientists really really want. A stem cell. Adults don't really have stem cells anymore (hear me out.) What adults have are semi stem cells.... Basically in the embyro there are cells (stem cells) that can transform into any cell in your entire body. They have the potential to make any organ that your body needs. Once when one of these stem cells starts making said organ, they become that organs stem cell. The problem is, they are now commited to being that organs stem cell. A bone marrow stem cell cannot make any other organ, it can only make bone marrorw. Ebyro stem cells can make any organ in the body. So you can see why embyro stem cells are defently the ones scientists want.
 

Saw11_2000

Well-Known Member
Now, human cloning means that once we perfect it, we can use it to clone organs and such from healthy donors?

I can see that as being very useful, if so, due to the low number of active organs circulating around these times.

About cloning a TOTAL human...uhh, I don't see a point, but, I think it's alright, but I wouldn't really support it, unless it's perfected. Not very nice to clone someone that has three heads and a malformed foot.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Ryan2065 said:
In my human genetics class here in college we studied stem cells and what not. Stem cells in adults are the worst ones scientists can get. They really want the ones from the embyro... Lets put it this way....

You have a stem cell, this is what scientists really really want. A stem cell. Adults don't really have stem cells anymore (hear me out.) What adults have are semi stem cells.... Basically in the embyro there are cells (stem cells) that can transform into any cell in your entire body. They have the potential to make any organ that your body needs. Once when one of these stem cells starts making said organ, they become that organs stem cell. The problem is, they are now commited to being that organs stem cell. A bone marrow stem cell cannot make any other organ, it can only make bone marrorw. Ebyro stem cells can make any organ in the body. So you can see why embyro stem cells are defently the ones scientists want.
That was a good explanation Ryan, thanks. I can't see why the Catholic Church would advocate embryonic stem cell research. I feel confident in saying they flat out would object to it.

~Victor
 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
Hmm...I might have the functioning parts of my brain replaced by devices that simulate the same processes but last a great deal longer. I'll do it one piece at a time, preserving my original personality as completely as possible. Bwahahahaha! I'll then create a race of eeeeeevil machines and take over the world! It'll be beeeeea-utiful!

Now, human cloning means that once we perfect it, we can use it to clone organs and such from healthy donors?
Actually, I think that it would be more efficient to figure out how to assemble the organs out of constructed tissues that were created out of individual cells. If we could figure out a way to put together, say, a heart within a matter of minutes, we'd have it made in the blooming shade. I think that the best way to do this, really, is to learn how to grow cultures of embryonic stem cells wholesale and perfect our methods of converting them into stuff we can use. Imagine that, if you lost a limb, the docs could give you a metallic skeletal structure, lay tissue over it, inlay the basic nervous system and so forth, all in one operation: you'd just need time and extensive therapy to let nature take care of the rest! Imagine if the doctors could repair a damaged spinal cord with a simple series of carefully placed shots. Think about how much of a breakthrough this would be!

This isn't even science fiction stuff! It's all theoretically possible, and it's right there at our fingertips! If we threw enough funding into the research, we'd be able to help victims of brain damage, cure Alzheimer's Disease, even do simple vanity-induced things like ridding ourselves of wrinkles, and this is just after a decade or two at the most! We'd eventually be strengthening weak hearts, even preventing fetuses from suffering miscarriage by treating them right there in the womb! The problem is that those who hypocritically call themselves pro-lifers are doing everything they can to keep all of these wonderful things from becoming a reality, all because they care more about embryoes, so-called "potential lives," than saving the lives of people who already have people who love and cherish them. The point of this is that, if we just put the proper funding into the research, we soon wouldn't have to use embryoes. We could just grow the cells ourselves! Though this is arguably a form of cloning, all we'd be doing is growing cultures of embryonic stem cells.
 
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Saw11_2000

Well-Known Member
"Pro-life" makes me giggle.



Typically, these are the same people who support the death penalty, etc.



I support the death penalty, but I also support a woman's choice. I don't think "pro-life" is just a very good label for those people.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Let's not group all "pro-lifers" into one category now, Saw.

I can vouch for Ryan said about stem cells, and even elaborate for anyone who's interested.

My Scientific American explains it thus: Instead of picturing an embryo as a little bag of uniform stem cells, it is more accurate to picture it as a bag of stem cells which are divided into three distinct layers, the Ectoderm, Mesoderm, and Endoderm. Each layer of stem cells is different from the next, and each different layer is in charge of creating different things.

The reasons why embryonic stem cells are so much more useful, is because the embryo contains all three different kinds of cells, and therefore from the embryo, (not from one stem cell), any possible cell or tissue can be reproduced. In adults, however, there is, (to date), only one type of stem cell to be found. These stem cells can be useful, however as Ryan said, they are still only semi-stem cells, and their rate of reproduction is slower, as well as having inferior accuracy. Also, these stem cells, (to the best of my knowledge), cannot produce neurons, cornea cells, and other tricky things of that nature. For the record, finding out how to reproduce neurons will be the discovery of the century.
 
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