How you feel finding errors in your scripture?

[MJFlores]

That strikes me as not quite honest. There is a difference between:

• unaffected versions, i.e., versions translated from unaffected sources, and
• harmonized versions, i.e., versions that assumed a copyist error and redacted the text.

So, can you point to a Biblical Hebrew or Koine Greek source that does not contain the error?

Not familiar with hebrew or koine Greek. I'm Filipino.

Just basing my answers on what is on hand and understandable by all. Thank you.

 

[Thief]

seems to me....we should step back a few paces and then look at the picture

if you were attempting to verify the authenticity of a painting
like Van Gogh.....
you can't be sure pointing to one tiny detail in the corner
you would need to be more than casually versed in ALL of the details....to be sure of your judgment call


likewise....not getting close enough to see that detail won't work either


we are greatly removed from the point of the penmanship
we are greatly removed from the point of translation

I use King James....1960
and I have made comparisons of the four gospels

the variants I have noticed are indeed notable

but the contrast of one report to another does not sway my belief in God and heaven

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's not "falsehood" but incompletion, such as when the Buddha was asked if there was a creator-god, he refused to answer the question.

Buddha refused because he had a completely different angle. 'Does it help in removing your sorrows?'

..but the contrast of one report to another does not sway my belief in God and heaven

Nothing would, because you are a true believer. Whatever is written there is immaterial. Is the earth a sphere or flat? Does the sun goes around the sun or otherwise? Was the earth created 6,000 years ago or 6 billion years ago? Nothing would matter.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not familiar with hebrew or koine Greek. I'm Filipino.

Just basing my answers on what is on hand and understandable by all. Thank you.

Did it ever occur to you that you lack of familiarity might speak volumes about what you deem understandable? I'm sorry, but you simply don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Thief]

Did it ever occur to you that you lack of familiarity might speak volumes about what you deem understandable? I'm sorry, but you simply don't know what you're talking about.

consider any one of the parables of the gospels

and the next guy will examine the same item

and the two of you might not agree on that detail

 

[MJFlores]

Did it ever occur to you that you lack of familiarity might speak volumes about what you deem understandable? I'm sorry, but you simply don't know what you're talking about.

I understand and believe in the Bible, which are the words of God.
I understand English and could conversationally speak in English without the accent
I understand Tagalog which is the official Philippine language

Hebrew and Koine are Greek to me.

And I thank you!

 

[Skwim]

Uh huh...an difference in number of warriors. Would this difference material enough to say that Joab did not gave up these people to David? That Israel and Judah did not have these warriors because of the difference in reporting the number of men that drew the sword? Would this alone negate the whole Bible?

United States Is the Most Powerful Military In The World
When you think about largest armies in the world you will no doubt also think about the US, whose army which is considered the strongest and best equipped in the world. It also has the largest military budget of $610 billion which is far larger than its closest rival China at $216 billion and is (actually bigger than the next nine countries combined). The country’s army was formed way back in 1775 and since then the army of this country has come a long way. Today, it has about 1,347,300 active duty personnel. The US has the second largest army in the world and it is considered one of the best-trained and most powerfully equipped armies in the world. It has by far the most aircrafts, biggest advancement in technologies like the Navy's new rail gun, best trained human force and the world's largest nuclear arsenal. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/29-largest-armies-in-the-world.html

1,347,300 is it an exact amount? or is it an estimate? If it is more or less, would it negate the premise that the United States Is the Most Powerful Military In The World?

As a uniformed military service, the U.S. Army is part of the Department of the Army, which is one of the three military departments of the Department of Defense. The U.S. Army is headed by a civilian senior appointed civil servant, the Secretary of the Army (SECARMY) and by a chief military officer, the Chief of Staff of the Army (CSA) who is also a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It is the largest military branch, and in the fiscal year 2017, the projected end strength for the Regular Army (USA) was 476,000 soldiers; the Army National Guard (ARNG) had 343,000 soldiers and the United States Army Reserve (USAR) had 199,000 soldiers; the combined-component strength of the U.S. Army was 1,018,000 soldiers.[4] As a branch of the armed forces, the mission of the U.S. Army is "to fight and win our Nation's wars, by providing prompt, sustained, land dominance, across the full range of military operations and the spectrum of conflict, in support of combatant commanders".[13] The branch participates in conflicts worldwide and is the major ground-based offensive and defensive force of the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army

I think the same principle would apply to 2 Samuel 24:9 (KJV) in relation to 1 Chronicles 21:5 (KJV)
I believe these number of warriors are estimates and are immaterial to affect the true message delivered as written in the Bible.

Still viewing the next allegation.

Sorry that you totally miss the point:

It would be helpful if anyone could point out the book, chapter, verse of an alleged error.

So, I pointed out several errors.

The first being that 2 Samuel 24:9 Says:

9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand [800,000] valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand [500,000]men.​

and

1 Chronicles 21:5 says:
5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand [1,100,000] men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand [470,000]men that drew sword.

​

Please note that 800,000 is not the same as 1,100,000 so one of the has to be an error. Take your pick.

AND, that 500,000 is not the same as 470,000 so one of the has to be an error. Take your pick.


POINT BEING: THE BIBLE CONTAINS AT LEAST TWO ERRORS


______________________________________________________________

 

[Skwim]

That is the problem when people stick to one version of the Bible when there are other translations to choose from for clarity and correctness. When one version is wrong it is wrong to conclude that the Old Testament is wrong. It would be more rational to say the person who wrote down the version was in error as another version have disclosed such properly many years ago.

Let us see what en.wikipedia has to say about Ahaziah.

Again, *sigh* you totally miss the point: and just to remind you, you asked for help.

"It would be helpful if anyone could point out the book, chapter, verse of an alleged error."​

2 Kings 8:26
KJ21
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

2 Chronicles 22:2
KJ21
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name also was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri.
____

ASV
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

ASV
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: and his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.
____

AMPC
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri king of Israel.

AMPC
Forty-two years old was Ahaziah when he began his one-year reign in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri.
____

BRG
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

BRG
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.
____

CJB
Achazyah was twenty-two years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Yerushalayim. His mother’s name was ‘Atalyahu the daughter of ‘Omri king of Isra’el.

CJB
Achazyah was forty-two years old when he began his reign, and he ruled for one year in Yerushalayim. His mother’s name was ‘Atalyahu the daughter of ‘Omri.
____

DRA
Ochozias was two and twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: the name of his mother was Athalia the daughter of Amri king of Israel.

DRA
Ochozias was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother was Athalia the daughter of Amri.
____

GNV
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem, and his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

GNV
Two and forty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.
____

JUB
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri, king of Israel.

JUB
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri.
____

LEB
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. The name of his mother was Athaliah daughter of Omri, king of Israel.

LEB
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And the name of his mother was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri.
____

MEV
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king. He reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri, king of Israe

MEV
Now Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, but he only reigned one year in Jerusalem. The name of his mother was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri.
____

NOG
Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, the granddaughter of King Omri of Israel.

NOG
Ahaziah was 42 years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri.​

PLEASE NOTE: Both 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2 can be right, so one of them has to be an error. Take your pick.

POINT BEING: THE BIBLE CONTAINS ANOTHER ERROR.

.

 

[MJFlores]

Sorry that you totally miss the point:



So, I pointed out several errors.

The first being that 2 Samuel 24:9 Says:

9 And Joab gave up the sum of the number of the people unto the king: and there were in Israel eight hundred thousand [800,000] valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand [500,000]men.​

and

1 Chronicles 21:5 says:
5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand [1,100,000] men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand [470,000]men that drew sword.

​

Please note that 800,000 is not the same as 1,100,000 so one of the has to be an error. Take your pick.

AND, that 500,000 is not the same as 470,000 so one of the has to be an error. Take your pick.


POINT BEING: THE BIBLE CONTAINS AT LEAST TWO ERRORS


______________________________________________________________

And the error is significant? When an error is insignificant then it is just irrelevant isn't it?

 

[Skwim]

And the error is significant? When an error is insignificant then it is just irrelevant isn't it?

Heh! Heh! Yeah, I was just waiting for you to move the goal posts. But don't feel bad, it's a pretty common Christian tactic around here, and we're all use to it.

.

.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And the error is significant? When an error is insignificant then it is just irrelevant isn't it?

Of course one has to admit that there are some errors in the Bible. Now you are arguing if they are significant or not. What events in the Bible are significant? What could be shown to be wrong and cause you to no longer be a believer?

 

[MJFlores]

Heh! Heh! Yeah, I was just waiting for you to move the goal posts. But don't feel bad, it's a pretty common Christian tactic around here, and we're all use to it.

.

.

Trying to rationalize if such error in estimate is significant to affect the whole and how it could really affect the existence of King David for example.

that 800,000 is not the same as 1,100,000 so one of the has to be an error. Take your pick.

AND, that 500,000 is not the same as 470,000 so one of the has to be an error. Take your pick.

Ergo - King David isn't real?

Then why does he have a tomb?


David's Tomb
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search King David's Tomb
Hebrew: קבר דוד המלך‎

Shown ( ) within Jerusalem
Location Jerusalem
Region Israel
Coordinates

31.77170°N 35.22936°E
Type tomb
History
Cultures Ayyubid, Hebrew, Byzantine, Crusaders
King David's Tomb (Hebrew: קבר דוד המלך‎) is a site considered by some to be the burial place of David, King of Israel, according to a tradition beginning in the 12th century. The majority of historians and archaeologists do not consider the site to be the actual resting place of King David

Even the New Testament Bible says:

Acts 2:29 New International Version (NIV)
“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

Did the numbers you found as errors proved anything at all?
That King David wasn't real and never existed?
I beg to disagree.
Even the exact number of men and women in uniform in the US Army differs from one report to another, but that does negate the fact that the United States exists.
Hence those petty issues are only distractions, insignificant therefore unable to affect the whole message of the Bible.

And I....Thank you!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Trying to rationalize if such error in estimate is significant to affect the whole and how it could really affect the existence of King David for example.

that 800,000 is not the same as 1,100,000 so one of the has to be an error. Take your pick.

AND, that 500,000 is not the same as 470,000 so one of the has to be an error. Take your pick.

Ergo - King David isn't real?

Then why does he have a tomb?


David's Tomb
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search King David's Tomb
Hebrew: קבר דוד המלך‎

Shown ( ) within Jerusalem
Location Jerusalem
Region Israel
Coordinates

31.77170°N 35.22936°E
Type tomb
History
Cultures Ayyubid, Hebrew, Byzantine, Crusaders
King David's Tomb (Hebrew: קבר דוד המלך‎) is a site considered by some to be the burial place of David, King of Israel, according to a tradition beginning in the 12th century. The majority of historians and archaeologists do not consider the site to be the actual resting place of King David

Even the New Testament Bible says:

Acts 2:29 New International Version (NIV)
“Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

Did the numbers you found as errors proved anything at all?
That King David wasn't real and never existed?
I beg to disagree.
Even the exact number of men and women in uniform in the US Army differs from one report to another, but that does negate the fact that the United States exists.
Hence those petty issues are only distractions, insignificant therefore unable to affect the whole message of the Bible.

And I....Thank you!

When you site a source you should not ignore the first sentence of that source:

"King David's Tomb (Hebrew: קבר דוד המלך‎) is a site considered by some to be the burial place of David, King of Israel, according to a tradition beginning in the 12th century. The majority of historians and archaeologists do not consider the site to be the actual resting place of King David

 

[MJFlores]

Again, *sigh* you totally miss the point: and just to remind you, you asked for help.

"It would be helpful if anyone could point out the book, chapter, verse of an alleged error."​

2 Kings 8:26
KJ21
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

2 Chronicles 22:2
KJ21
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name also was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri.
____

ASV
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

ASV
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: and his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.
____

AMPC
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri king of Israel.

AMPC
Forty-two years old was Ahaziah when he began his one-year reign in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri.
____

BRG
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

BRG
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.
____

CJB
Achazyah was twenty-two years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Yerushalayim. His mother’s name was ‘Atalyahu the daughter of ‘Omri king of Isra’el.

CJB
Achazyah was forty-two years old when he began his reign, and he ruled for one year in Yerushalayim. His mother’s name was ‘Atalyahu the daughter of ‘Omri.
____

DRA
Ochozias was two and twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: the name of his mother was Athalia the daughter of Amri king of Israel.

DRA
Ochozias was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem, and the name of his mother was Athalia the daughter of Amri.
____

GNV
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem, and his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

GNV
Two and forty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.
____

JUB
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri, king of Israel.

JUB
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri.
____

LEB
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. The name of his mother was Athaliah daughter of Omri, king of Israel.

LEB
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And the name of his mother was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri.
____

MEV
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king. He reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri, king of Israe

MEV
Now Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, but he only reigned one year in Jerusalem. The name of his mother was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri.
____

NOG
Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, the granddaughter of King Omri of Israel.

NOG
Ahaziah was 42 years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri.​

PLEASE NOTE: Both 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2 can be right, so one of them has to be an error. Take your pick.

POINT BEING: THE BIBLE CONTAINS ANOTHER ERROR.

.

Bible translations like the King James Version have 42 on Chron 22:2 - these translations are in error however as I have stated earlier that other bible translations writes it at 22. To bolster this I have linked what was written in en.wikipedia.

Ahaziah of Judah (Hebrew: אֲחַזְיָה, ʼĂḥazyāh; Greek: Οχοζιας Okhozias; Latin: Ahazia)[1] or Jehoahaz (2 Chronicles 21:17; 25:23), was a king of Judah, and the son of Jehoram and Athaliah, the daughter (or possibly sister) of king Ahab of Israel. He was also the first Judahite king to be descended from both the House of David and the House of Omri, through his mother and successor, Athaliah.

According to 2 Kings 8:26, Ahaziah was 22 years old when he began to reign, and reigned for one year in Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles 22:2 gives his age as 42 years when his reign began in Jerusalem. Most scholars regard the 42 years in 2 Chronicles 22:2 as a copyist's error for an original 22 years. The age of 22 is also found in some Greek and Syrian versions of 2 Chronicles 22:2.

Here is the link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahaziah_of_Judah

The Bible did not err, it was the versions that were at fault.

 

[MJFlores]

When you site a source you should not ignore the first sentence of that source:

"King David's Tomb (Hebrew: קבר דוד המלך‎) is a site considered by some to be the burial place of David, King of Israel, according to a tradition beginning in the 12th century. The majority of historians and archaeologists do not consider the site to be the actual resting place of King David

It wasn't the actual resting place. But that is the tomb. Even in the Philippines, we move bones of our dead love one's when it is needed to be moved.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It wasn't the actual resting place. But that is the tomb. Even in the Philippines, we move bones of our dead love one's when it is needed to be moved.

Please. It is simply not thought to be his tomb.

 

[MJFlores]

Of course one has to admit that there are some errors in the Bible. Now you are arguing if they are significant or not. What events in the Bible are significant? What could be shown to be wrong and cause you to no longer be a believer?

A difference in the actual strength of then army of Israel and Judah between one book to another - how would that be significant? What does the difference prove? That is what I am trying to find out.

a) King David wasn't real?
b} Joab wasn't real?
c) There was no such army?
d) All of the above?

https://liveinthephilippines.com/moving-papas-bones/

The link was regarding moving bones.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A difference in the actual strength of then army of Israel and Judah between one book to another - how would that be significant? What does the difference prove? That is what I am trying to find out.

a) King David wasn't real?
b} Joab wasn't real?
c) There was no such army?
d) All of the above?

https://liveinthephilippines.com/moving-papas-bones/

The link was regarding moving bones.

Hard to say. He is in the part of the Bible that is a bit fuzzy where the history is not very certain. It could be mostly right or it could be mostly wrong. The problem is that your own source said that that was almost certainly not his tomb, bones or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is absolutely no reason to believe that one’s inner voice has anything to do with truth from God.
Yes there is. Especially when you listen to it and it opens you to the Divine. When that happens, it becomes perfectly clear what is meant by, "Thy will, not mine be done". So yes, it does have to do with the Truth of God.

I do not believe Truth from God comes through an inner voice but rather Only through God’s Messengers, but you already know that.

Just because people believe that does not make it a reality.
Actually.... that's not true. Believing it does make it become Reality. You darn tootin it does.

Why? Because faith, hope, intention, divine Will, and surrender to that image, does in fact open you to it, and it becomes your lived Reality.

I do not believe anyone's beliefs make anything a reality. Reality is whatever it is. The best I can say is that “I believe” that the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is the Truth from God for this age, so that is Reality for me and other Baha’is. What you can say is that your experiences are real to you, so that is your Reality.

People can imagine any number of things.
Yes indeed! People imagine they are separated from God, unworthy, unlovable, unloved, etc. And that becomes their lived reality to them. What we imagine can either damn us, or save us.

With all due respect, I do not believe that people imagine they are separated from God. They are separated from God unless they are connected to God. One cannot be connected to God unless one has knowledge of God. One cannot obtain knowledge of God except through the Messenger of God. There is no inner source of knowledge one can tap into because God is not living inside of anyone. That is not to say that atheists are unworthy, unlovable, or unloved by God, but that Love is not available to them until they make the connection to God, like plugging in a lamp.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovestMe not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Such a voice is only valuable to the person who experiences it and believes it came from God. But just how valuable is it if it did not really come from God?
If the result is you live as God would in this world, it's value is Eternal. All else fades away, but not that.

We can live a godly life, but no human can live as God would live. God is exalted and sanctified from the whole creation. God is single and alone.

“God grant that, with a penetrating vision, thou mayest perceive, in all things, the sign of the revelation of Him Who is the Ancient King, and recognize how exalted and sanctified from the whole creation is that most holy and sacred Being. This, in truth, is the very root and essence of belief in the unity and singleness of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 191-192

According to my beliefs, truth from God can only be found “out there” because God does not communicate directly to anyone except His Messengers who reveal the religious scriptures.
And this is specifically why I feel it is unhelpful to the spiritual aspirant on their path to Union with the Divine. It's great for teaching the basic principles by objectifying them. But unless it becomes internalized and a lived, experiential reality, one which produces natural fruit from the Vine that is alive and living within you, it becomes just a dead end religion to you. A finger pointing at the moon, is not the Moon. You have to step beyond the finger into the Light of what it is pointing to.

One can be connected to God in heart through prayer and meditation, but one cannot be united with God. God is not accessible directly to humans. The One True God is exalted beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived by anyone. Becoming a Partner with God would be to rival His glory and bring God down to a human level. That is impossible. God is One and Alone, without peer or equal. God had no partners or associates in His Creation. Even the Messengers of God were not partners with God.

Scriptures do not have to be inerrant in order to convey God’s truth. They only have to come from a real Messenger of God, as opposed to someone who just believed they heard from God.
Anything which speaks the Truth of God is a true Messenger, including that songbird who quoted Holy Scripture to me tonight in the park. All are Divine manifestations, if you have the ears to hear, the eyes to see, and the soul to receive.

You can believe that if you wish. I believe that only the Messengers of God have direct access to God’s Truth. If we get that Truth from them we can reflect it and speak that Truth; we are in effect“manifestation” of God because we reflect God’s Light that we receive through the Messenger.

In my opinion, the problem with mysticism is that once a mystic decides that they have a direct line to God, they think they no longer need any scriptures as a source of truth, so they miss out on God’s truth as it comes through scriptures.
Well that's not true at all! The Truth of God shines wherever it is heard. Scripture sings anew with the Light of the Divine Mind when you are opened to it. By contrast, previously that had the sound of a scratchy record by comparison. They aren't done away with, they at last make sense!

According to my beliefs, we gain access to The Truth of God through the Messenger and what is contained in His Scripture after which time that Truth of God shines wherever it is heard.

They also become an island onto themselves disconnected from the rest of humanity.
100% completely a wrong understanding. Absolutely the opposite is true. Without it, we are all disconnected from not only the rest of humanity, but ourselves as well as disconnected from God. To connect with God, connects you as God with the whole of creation. It opens you to the world. It opens you to yourself. It opens you to others.

I agree that connection to God is vital because without that connection whereby we see God in everything we cannot love everyone and all of creation for the sake of God.

This might make them feel superior and special but it does not help anyone else in society.
The absolute is opposite is in fact the reality of it. This is just speculation on your part, and perhaps some resentment in there? On the contrary, it makes you feel the servant of others, not superior. It makes you realize how nothing your own ego is in the Light of God. It lets you at last "love others as yourself".

I have no resentment whatsoever. As I tell many of my atheist friends, I have absolutely no interest, in ever seeing God or hearing from God directly. I know I can never gain near access to God because God has barred access to His holy court. I accept that as a reality and am happy with the Mystery that is God. Nobody can ever know the Essence of God, not even God’s Messengers. All we can know of God are some of God’s Attributes and God’s Will for the age I live in. The Messengers of God know God, but not in a way we could ever understand. I do not know what it is that mystics experience but I am 100% certain it is not God. Apparently your opinion differs and that is your right. We have all been given free will to believe as we choose.

It does not engender any sense of community or working together for a common goal. The entire focus is on the individual and their connection to God.
While the path of the mystic is a largely solitary one, that is in a true sense by design. You die alone, you know. You have to die before God, in order to enter God. But one that is done, then you rise from the grave that was your life in your ego-self, and the whole world is your focus. You see as God sees. Your compassion is God's compassion. Your grace is God's Grace. You become God in the world through your body as vessel.

With all due respect, I do not believe anyone ever sees as God sees or that anyone ever becomes God.Certainly Jesus was not God, nor was Baha’u’llah; how much less could any ordinary human believe that they became God. I do not even believe we see God after we die and ascend to the spiritual world. We will feel God’s Spirit through the Messenger, but God is too Great to ever be known directly.

God uses His Messengers as a Vessel to channel His Grace. God’s Grace that is bestowed upon humanity can be channeled to others as we can share with each other what we have received from the Messenger. That is one value of revealed religion, the sense of community it engenders.

This is a good thing. Put on your oxygen mask first, if you hope to help others on with theirs. That's an act of love, not selfishness.

I am all for helping other get close to God, but no individual mystic has what prophetic religion has that is needed to educate all of humanity and help everyone progress spiritually. Realistically, not even many mystics who have a one-to-one relationship with many people are going to accomplish that. Only a Messenger of God can change the hearts of mankind because God’s revealed world is what effects that change. In addition, it is the Messenger of God who reveals the Plan that humanity needs to live together in harmony and unity and build the Kingdom of God.

This can never work for all of humanity so I do not see the value in it as compared to the revealed religions, which have been the cause of the advancement of civilizations throughout human history.
While religions may have civilizing influence, with both good and not so good results, the path to God is again, a solitary one. But without that, a religion without the Living Soul breathing through its members, is not in fact drawing from Living Waters, but instead from a bucket of water someone had handed down to them, not refreshed since it was drawn hundreds or thousands of years in the past. God's Truth, is not static. If it's not your truth from within you, it's not your Truth.

Yes, the path to God is a solitary one and a mystical journey. The Baha’i Faith is a mystical religion but in this day we are enjoined to walk the mystical path with practical feet because we are raising up a New Civilization, the Kingdom of God on earth. We cannot do that without following the blueprint instructions Baha’u’llah so carefully penned which requires working alongside others who have similar aspirations.

That bucket of water is refreshed every 500-1000 years and it is available to draw upon in the scriptures. God’s Truth is not static. It comes to the Messengers of God in every age, like rain from heaven. The Lake of God’s revelation from past scriptures is refreshed and revitalized in every age so it never becomes like stagnant water.

I get Truth from Baha’u’llah and it becomes part of me so it is then My Truth.

 

[stvdv]

And the error is significant? When an error is insignificant then it is just irrelevant isn't it?

You did well "trying to prove Skwim wrong", but you did bad "admitting Bible errors"
[Let thy Yes be Yes, and thy No be No]. You forgot to vote for the first one "I get upset and will not easy admit a flaw"

Heh! Heh! Yeah, I was just waiting for you to move the goal posts. But don't feel bad, it's a pretty common Christian tactic around here, and we're all use to it.

You are too nice here
He should feel bad, very bad. Hell bound bad. For concealing the truth "Bible contains errors"
[Considering the fact the Christians easily send non-Christians to hell for not following Truth/Jesus/Bible]