How were OT saints saved ??

[outhouse]

heres the post you ignored with scholarly "quotes" from Dever"

lets start here.

can you refute this

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The consensus among biblical scholars today is that there was never any exodus of the proportions described in the Bible,[12] and that the story is best seen as theology, a story illustrating how the god of Israel acted to save and strengthen his chosen people, and not as history


heres the fact part

The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones

more factual evidence for a Canaanite origin

There is reportedly archaeological evidence that the origins of Israel were in fact largely Canaanite, leaving, in the words of archaeologist William Dever, "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."

 

[CG Didymus]

have you ever thought moses was a literary creation to teach the morals and lessons Israelites found important.???


Moses has no historicity, and no Israelite slaves were ever in Egypt as a enslaved race.

Israelites origins are also well known by all credible historians to have came from displaced Canaanites who slowly migrated to the highlands in Israel after 1200 BC.

Really? That kind of puts a monkey wrench in the whole question then. So, if the imaginary saints of the O.T. were saved by a real or imagined God who told them to do things, and they did them. Then that God changed the rules of the game and made it so everyone had been born with original sin, and therefore needed the blood of his son, Jesus, to be saved. So since the blood hadn't been shed yet, how did that God save his imaginary saints. Or, is it all imaginary?

In some ways, I don't care how people imagine themselves saved, both religions were meant to get people to love one another and to love their neighbors. Has any religion, real or imagined, been successful in doing that?

 

[outhouse]

Try this then
IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt

All your quote shows is the ignorance of authors who are unaware of archaeological evidences. It matters not if the evidence is 80 or 800 years old. The passage of time does not change the factuicity of an event.

The above article mentions an historic stele. Your authors only have a published personal opinion not linked to anything of substance. You only dig yourself further into a hole with this caliber of "proofs."

2 vs -1.
Dr. O

Dr O, your ignorant to the facts, do you know who Israel Finklestein is? how about William Dever? you are no one to talk down to the formost authorities on the subject. Before you continue to make yourself look foolish, I would highly suggest you research a little more.


you are the one unaware of archaeological evidences. and your pathetic biased link is of no real value and the author has no credibility in the field.


You have also not refuted the encyclopedia wiki link I have provided that states facts.


I know the Merneptah stele very well. It states a nomadic to semi-nomadic tribe was wiped out. a people, not a place, and not a power at 1209BC.

and if you had done any real reserch you would find out that these people are known as proto-israelites in 1209 BC, who were in fact displaced Canaanites who were moving and just starting to settle the highlands of Israel, and for the next two hundred years they still mirrored Canaanites to a T.

 

[outhouse]

You make reasonable request, so ill do my best

Really?

pretty close to factual bud.

That kind of puts a monkey wrench in the whole question then

yes it does.

most people dont have a single clue how the OT was constructed, and reedacted over centuries. Most people dont realize that Israelites were polytheistic for over 600 years after their formation in 1200 BC from displaces Canaanites, their closed minds wont let them accept the knowledge.

if the imaginary saints of the O.T. were saved by a real or imagined God who told them to do things, and they did them.

this is where it gets complicated. We need to define saints. Because different patriarchs have different amounts of historicity.

people like noah and moses have ZERO historicity and by all credible historians only exist in literature.

Noah has no history or historical core to the mythology other then the Sumerian legend of Ziasudra who was a real king and was said to have gone down the flooded Euphrates in 2900 BC when it overflowed it banks, the barge had goods and he is said to have loaded the farm animals on it. all the flood legends in the levant including noah, originated from this flood and real man.

Moses as written never existed as written by all credible historians, now a person who was a leader may have led a escaped small tribe from Egypt, but were not talking about a direct reffernce either.

people like David possible did exist but scholars place him as a bandit with hit and run tactics, and not that of a wealthy ruler of a large civilization.

Soloman has even less historicity

Abraham, is also said to be a literary creation by all credible historians.

Then that God changed the rules of the game and made it so everyone had been born with original sin, and therefore needed the blood of his son, Jesus, to be saved.

careful how you use the word god, because the early Israelites were polytheistic and that word "god" is a concept that evolved into what you think you know. Israelites worshipped a family of deities, El the father, Yahweh the son, and Baal the son, and Asherah Els wife and at one point Yahwehs wife as well. it wasnt until after 622 BC that monotheism was born when king Josiah who was a strict yahwist forced the nation to switch to montheism around the period of second Isaiah. It took hundred of years for it to stick besides having the bible edited to one god.

, how did that God save his imaginary saints. Or, is it all imaginary?

these were all literay creations that evolved over hundreds of years who were later redacted to have them all worshipping the same god.

again you would have to define each saint to discover how much historicity each has outside of the mythology

In some ways, I don't care how people imagine themselves saved, both religions were meant to get people to love one another and to love their neighbors.

exactly

excellent point

Has any religion, real or imagined, been successful in doing that?

yes

is different amounts at different times


the positive aspects of theism are evident today in modern society. its a shame the minority of bad theist give theism a black eye.

 

[CG Didymus]

"its a shame the minority of bad theist give theism a black eye." Right on Outhouse. I think religion shows too many signs of being man-made--a story about God rather than a story from God. This particular issue is only a problem for the Christians. Jewish saints and heroes don't need salvation as defined by Christianity. Christians need to make provisions to get them past the pearly gates. They say by "faith." But faith in what? In the messiah? What about the people that lived before the concept of the messiah developed? To say they had a faith in God, yes, the Jewish definition of God, not the Christian one. So what'ya gonna do with David, Joshua, Aaron? How about Samson? Is he slated for hell?

Another problem--What about Catholic saints? They knew a Jesus, but not the Protestant definition of Jesus. Of course there is the shaman priest of a tribal people? If he prayed to the Great Spirit did he get in? He knew his God, but not the Christian God. If Jesus is going to give a free get-into-heaven card for a guy like Solomon then why not Sitting Bull?

For being so simple, salvation in Christ can really get complicated.

 

[outhouse]

were talking about two different religions, that really dont cross refference just because romans built their own version.

So what'ya gonna do with David, Joshua, Aaron? How about Samson? Is he slated for hell?

hell is something that evolved for thousands of years. In Israelites time, hell didnt exist. Hell is a roman invention.

Israelites followed Sheol which also translates to a dirt pit.

Israelites didnt have a place like christians/romans did, and their views of a afterlife are completely different. it still involved a life after death and mythology was used however. some jews didnt believe in a afterlife like the Saducees.

 

[javajo]

Obi One

For Paul, the salvation of all OT saints is the exact same salvation of NT saints. In Romans 3-5 Pauls spends three chapters showing justification by faith - alone. In chapter 4, Paul uses Abraham's waterless justification by faith as the example and pattern for us all (Rom 4:23-24).

There is but One Faith (Eph 4:5) - not two.
Dr. O

I agree. Just because the cross was yet future, when Christ died, he paid for all the sins of all the world once for all. He paid for everyone's sins, from Adam to the last person born. We are all saved like Abraham, by faith, from Romans 4:

Abraham’s Faith Made Him Right With God

4 What should we say about those things? What did our father Abraham discover about being right with God? 2 Did he become right with God because of something he did? If so, he could brag about it. But he couldn’t brag to God. 3 What do we find in Scripture? It says, “Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham’s faith, and so his faith made him right with God.” ( Genesis 15:6)
4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God.
6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don’t have to do anything in return. David says,
7 “Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him.” (Psalm 32:1,2)

 

[outhouse]

Your experts willingly close their eyes to historic digs

You dont have the education to talk down to Finklestein and Dever, and you dont understand the evidence you speak of.

Randall Price

probably studied under Finklestein in Israel.

he is also a known biased quack running expeditions looking for noahs ark. And said to have committed fraud. what part of credible dont you understand???

he's only been to Israel 20 times, Finklestein lives there and is head of the countries Archeology Dpt.

I was hoping to come to this forum to discuss things intelligently

intellectual dishonesty my friend

You have ignored FACTS I have provided, and refused to debate the true archeologist factual findings showing Israel grew after 1200 BC from displaced Canaanites.

You are also only providing a few obscure known biased articles from creationist websites that hold no credibility in the historical world.



Are you going to stand behind a world wide flood as well??? because if you are, you cannot debate with any credibility

 

[outhouse]

blind following the blind here

I agree.

because you dont understand history what so ever.

We are all saved like Abraham,

here some information on abraham

Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This has led modern scholars to propose that the entire Torah, which include the stories of Abraham, all originated from literary circles either during the Babylonian period of the late 6th century BCE, to the 5th century Persian rule.


Since the 1970s, efforts to reconstruct a patriarchal age for Israel's past have come to an end as most historians of ancient Israel have abandoned the conclusions of earlier scholarship,[30] as there is nothing specific in the Genesis stories that can be definitively linked to known history in or around Canaan in the early second millennium BCE.

Abraham coming from "Ur of the Chaldeans", when the Babylonians were not known as Chaldeans until a much later time.

 

[outhouse]

Lets get some real scholarships and archeologist links in here.

Here is some of Devers work.

NOVA | Archeology of the Hebrew Bible


Today I think most archeologists would argue that there is no direct archeological proof that Abraham, for instance, ever lived.

The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.

The Bible is didactic literature; it wants to teach, not just to describe. We try to make the Bible something it is not, and that's doing an injustice to the biblical writers.

No Egyptian text mentions the Israelites except the famous inscription of Merneptah dated to about 1206 B.C.E. But those Israelites were in Canaan; they are not in Egypt, and nothing is said about them escaping from Egypt.

We know today, from archeological investigation, that there were more than 300 early villages of the 13th and 12th century in the area. I call these "proto-Israelite" villages.


Many scholars now think that most of the early Israelites were originally Canaanites, displaced Canaanites, displaced from the lowlands, from the river valleys, displaced geographically and then displaced ideologically.


But I think most archeologists today would argue that the United Monarchy was not much more than a kind of hill-country chiefdom. It was very small-scale


However, we should have guessed already that polytheism was the norm and not monotheism from the biblical denunciations of it. It was real and a threat as far as those who wrote the Bible were concerned. And today archeology has illuminated what we could call "folk religion" in an astonishing manner.

 

[javajo]

Ok. But, I believe everyone is saved by faith, like faithful Abraham.

 

[outhouse]

Ok. But, I believe everyone is saved by faith, like faithful Abraham.

this is a debate section, not same faith.

and only faith and refusal of knowledge doesnt cut it here.

 

[outhouse]

Gleason L. Archer, Jr.

was a well known quack

and YEC

like I said please supply credible scholarships, not outdated biased dead people.

John Elder

is also a known well biased quack and has no backing in modern archeology



Take your YEC views elsewhere, they dont cut it. There was no global flood and the bible is not inerrant.

 

[outhouse]

Yes. I smell something powerful and wonderful.

you havnt refuted a word written yet

you have ignored facts, and information, and talked down to scholars you have no buisiness doing such to, all from a point of ignorance.

You have supplied biased sources and favored them over the best archeologist in this field.

 

[outhouse]

I suppose we should quit this since you aren't up to the task.

you havnt even started to refute a single sentance ive written let alone stop.

Well I suppose I could say the same thing about your so called scholars.

No you cannot.

mine are the most educated and knowledgable on the subject and have their bias in check.


Your are known to post biased, YEC, inerrantist, with no credible backing what so ever.

It was a good skunking!
I rather enjoyed whipping you.

what ever floats your boat

Dr. O

people who back, YEC and inerrantist, never have a credible leg to stand on.

 

[javajo]

I believe in a young earth and the innerancy of the Bible. I believe everyone will know that one day. I believe it is important to consider, before the time comes when it may be too late.

 

[outhouse]

I believe in a young earth and the innerancy of the Bible. I believe everyone will know that one day. I believe it is important to consider, before the time comes when it may be too late.

YEC and a inerrant bible are not supportable positions in any sense.


In this modern time, there is no excuse to place mythology and theology before common knowledge.

thus your views are outlawed from public schools, thankfully.

 

[outhouse]

I believe it is important to consider, before the time comes when it may be too late.

many people have made claims regarding time

they all have one thing in common, they all have been dead wrong

 

[Rise]

Hi to all and here is a good subject for spiritual bebate !!

How was Moses saved ??

Was it by Grace ?

Was it by Faith "

Was it by Faith and works ?

Could Moses be Lost , like many claim that we can be lost today ?
Since he killed and Egyptian ?

DAN P

The same way Abraham (before moses) was credited right standing in the sight of God, by faith.
The same way Enoch must have walked with God until he was taken up to heaven in pre-flood times, by faith.

Faith in God, and obedience to his Word.
It is not obedience to his Word that saves, but obedience is a sign that one truly has faith in God, putting their trust in Him and believing what He has said to the point where one is willing to act upon it.
The faith to lay down our own rebellious life ad live the way he says we should.

When it says in James that faith without works is dead, it brings into question whether or not someone actually has saving faith if they haven't acted upon that in any way other than the mouth the words 'I believe'. Even demons believe. The real question is do they act on that belief to submit themselves to God's rulership over their life, ending their self-serving rebellion?

Faith is more than just a mental ascent to acknowledge something as true, it is to put your trust in something or someone. Do you trust in yourself, or trust in the Messiah and His Father?

 

[Shiranui117]

Hi to all and here is a good subject for spiritual bebate !!

How was Moses saved ??

Was it by Grace ?

Was it by Faith "

Was it by Faith and works ?

Could Moses be Lost , like many claim that we can be lost today ?
Since he killed and Egyptian ?

DAN P

First, we must keep in mind that Christ said, "I am the truth, the way and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6) Abraham and Moses did not save themselves by faith and works alone, because death and sin still reigned in their bodies. The death and Resurrection of Christ is necessary to break the hold of sin and death over all of humanity.

Romans 5:14-21 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


It is the universal opinion of the ancient Church that those who died prior to Christ's New Covenant dwelt in Hades/Sheol, the abode of the dead. This is consistent with the dozens of references in the Bible to Hades/Sheol/The Pit/Death. (If you want some of these references, feel free to ask; I just wanted to keep this post reasonably brief, lol) It also fits in with the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 17, as by the time of Christ, Hades had become "compartmentalized" into different areas; a fiery area for the wicked dead, and the "Bosom of Abraham" for the blessed.

After Christ's crucifixion and death, He descended into Hades, destroying the power of death over not only the living, but also the dead. Some of the dead were raised up after Christ's Descent into Hades (often called the Harrowing of Hell), as mentioned in Matthew 27:51-53:
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.


In Hades, Christ redeemed fallen Adam, as well as Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, King David and Solomon, as well as everyone else who accepted Christ's offer of salvation. After Hades was emptied, Christ destroyed the power of death and sin over humanity.

Hosea 13:14 “I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.”

Hebrews 2:14
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

If anyone has any questions, don't hesitate to ask for clarification or further elaboration.