s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
Well, alrighty then. In celebration/recognition of attaining my 100th-plus post within REF (woo-hoo!), it's time to kick off another topical thread.
[Note to mods: I am unsure as to whether this topic is submitted under the proper forum heading, so I defer to your guidance as to it's proper placement. ;-)]
In the now degraded (and more or less defunct) thread entitled "How to prove God to an atheist (no really)" [ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16588 ]; I initially offered up (by enumerated example and specified means) what I would accept as incontrovertible and undeniable evidentiary proof of the existence of a supernatural deity that would, in effect, make me a "true believer" and "convert".
Perhaps now is the opportunity for believers (adherents of deistic religious beliefs) to cite any evidentiary examples (as undeniable and incontrovertible) they can offer that would, in effect, "disprove" the "existence" of their professed deity - and would result in their "un-conversion" to "unbelief" (or non-acceptance of claims) of any/all supernatural god(s).
To my knowledge, this is not some "trick question" that pre-supposes some "correct" (or final/ultimate) "trick answer". Obviously, from my perspective as an atheist, there is no compelling evidence to suggest (beyond a reasonable doubt) that any supernatural being/entity, "force", or otherwise ordained supernaturalistic course/purpose/cycle, etc. is evidentially "existent" or "real". I consider the extant "evidence" alone sufficient to draw the self-assured conclusion that all claims to supernatural cause/effect phenomena are, well..."unbelievable".
It is well documented and accepted that believers are prone to "crises of faith" (even Mother Teresa had her moments), but that differs from abject rejections of all religious claims tendered as immutable truths. One may reject a certain religion's tenants, or dogma, or political ideology...but typically, a belief is retained (or at least, a "sense") that some supernatural deity is "real", or existent in some shape, form, or fashion (or at the very least, an "unproven possibility").
But is there any "evidence" (beyond that which is already available) that would persuade you as a "believer" that all claims of supernatural deities are bunk? If so, please offer such prospective "disproofs".
Would discovery of alien life forms (not of this Earth) do the trick?
How about "proof" of UFO's (essentially the same thing)?
Is there some element of cosmology; mathematics; elemental, particle, or theoretical physics; chemistry (akin to "proof" that "life" can spark or originate from otherwise inorganic compounds); or biology (or evolution), or some other "find" or "discovery" (either scientific or even philosophical) that would, in fact, lend you to conclude that all claims to deities are unfounded/unmerited, or certifiably "disproved"?
Faith (religious) is defined in Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary thusly:
"Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true
(Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and
therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of
faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests."
If the description/definition above has it's own merited "truth" itself, then certainly the converse, or (otherwise) the absence of "faith" would demand similar considerations in determining a satisfying and self-conclusive "truth" of a "disproof" of supernatural deities.
Believers have asked me many times over the years, "What would it take (for) you to believe?". Well, in the thread referenced above, my earnest answer is tendered in reply. Now, the converse question is put to believers for similar consideration and honest reply.
What say you?
[Note to mods: I am unsure as to whether this topic is submitted under the proper forum heading, so I defer to your guidance as to it's proper placement. ;-)]
In the now degraded (and more or less defunct) thread entitled "How to prove God to an atheist (no really)" [ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16588 ]; I initially offered up (by enumerated example and specified means) what I would accept as incontrovertible and undeniable evidentiary proof of the existence of a supernatural deity that would, in effect, make me a "true believer" and "convert".
Perhaps now is the opportunity for believers (adherents of deistic religious beliefs) to cite any evidentiary examples (as undeniable and incontrovertible) they can offer that would, in effect, "disprove" the "existence" of their professed deity - and would result in their "un-conversion" to "unbelief" (or non-acceptance of claims) of any/all supernatural god(s).
To my knowledge, this is not some "trick question" that pre-supposes some "correct" (or final/ultimate) "trick answer". Obviously, from my perspective as an atheist, there is no compelling evidence to suggest (beyond a reasonable doubt) that any supernatural being/entity, "force", or otherwise ordained supernaturalistic course/purpose/cycle, etc. is evidentially "existent" or "real". I consider the extant "evidence" alone sufficient to draw the self-assured conclusion that all claims to supernatural cause/effect phenomena are, well..."unbelievable".
It is well documented and accepted that believers are prone to "crises of faith" (even Mother Teresa had her moments), but that differs from abject rejections of all religious claims tendered as immutable truths. One may reject a certain religion's tenants, or dogma, or political ideology...but typically, a belief is retained (or at least, a "sense") that some supernatural deity is "real", or existent in some shape, form, or fashion (or at the very least, an "unproven possibility").
But is there any "evidence" (beyond that which is already available) that would persuade you as a "believer" that all claims of supernatural deities are bunk? If so, please offer such prospective "disproofs".
Would discovery of alien life forms (not of this Earth) do the trick?
How about "proof" of UFO's (essentially the same thing)?
Is there some element of cosmology; mathematics; elemental, particle, or theoretical physics; chemistry (akin to "proof" that "life" can spark or originate from otherwise inorganic compounds); or biology (or evolution), or some other "find" or "discovery" (either scientific or even philosophical) that would, in fact, lend you to conclude that all claims to deities are unfounded/unmerited, or certifiably "disproved"?
Faith (religious) is defined in Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary thusly:
"Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true
(Phil. 1:27; 2 Thess. 2:13). Its primary idea is trust. A thing is true, and
therefore worthy of trust. It admits of many degrees up to full assurance of
faith, in accordance with the evidence on which it rests."
If the description/definition above has it's own merited "truth" itself, then certainly the converse, or (otherwise) the absence of "faith" would demand similar considerations in determining a satisfying and self-conclusive "truth" of a "disproof" of supernatural deities.
Believers have asked me many times over the years, "What would it take (for) you to believe?". Well, in the thread referenced above, my earnest answer is tendered in reply. Now, the converse question is put to believers for similar consideration and honest reply.
What say you?