How the Law (doesn't really), define "gender identity"

[ImmortalFlame]

Yeah; almost like they're just makin' it all up as they go along

Almost like it's a social construct.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I think for those who insist gender has nothing to do with biological sex, it is already meaningless. That’s why some of the most brilliant minds in the world can’t give a straight answer when asked “what is a woman”

I think the question is so loaded people tend to be cautious in order to avoid saying something that will end up as a soundbite that will be played out of context.

A "woman" is someone who fit the social roles traditionally given to a female based on a particular time and culture.

I don’t think it matters how good they get at making a man look like a woman via surgery, biological sex is based on sex chromosomes not sex organs.

Nope, it's not. The chromosomes deal with the development of the sex organs.

If a straight person were to have sex with someone with Androgen insensitivity syndrome who is genetically male but had developed as a female, would that make them gay?

I don’t agree that gender was ever used to advertise sex organs. And as far as gender roles, those were usually sexist stereotypes that we have been getting away from all of these years.

Then what were they for?

Again; the idea that girls only play with dolls and boys only play with trucks, that men have STEM careers, and women have nurse or teaching jobs are ideas considered sexist and outdated. Gender roles isn’t a flavor of life, they’re sexist stereotypes.

IMO it’s more about attempting to control how other people think than anything else

I agree gender roles can be sexist. Taken out of that context and allowed to be freely played with in terms of fashion and names and identity, they can be creatively utilized.

 

[Aupmanyav]

but in the USA, if a 40 year old man wants to identify as a 9 year old boy, and wants to get a 9 year old girlfriend, The law will not allow it regardless of what is going on inside of his head

He may want to have a 9 year old girl friend, but the parents/police can stop that. Girls cannot make that decision before the age of 18 (age of consent), though it is on the Indian Supreme Court to make exceptions depending upon the case.
We have three genders in India: male, female and the 'third gender'. Where one enlists is one's choice.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Very likely, gender may one day be meaningless for one reason or another.

At the moment gender identity is necessary in India because the third gender is eligible for 'affirmative action', like free surgical intervention, reservations for jobs, and many others; because at one time they were deprived of many facilities available to males and females.

 

[wellwisher]

Alright, let's go through the list and you tell me how a transperson will be "gaming the system" by engaging in the following from the list of Declarations from the RCW's posted above:
1.

a. getting a job?​

b. going to a park, library, or public fair?​

c. renting or buying a place to live?​

d. buying something on credit?​

e. buying insurance?​

f. engaging in commerce free from boycotts or blacklists?​

g. breastfeeding their child?​

So, how is a transperson going to "game the system" in any of the above things simply by claiming "any old gender identity?"

I think it is called DEI and reverse discrimination. Reverse discrimination was not originally called discrimination; self serving loophole. This is one way that was/is used to game the system. For example, DEI, which means diversity, equity and inclusion has been around since the 1960's. It did originally help women and minorities. But if you look deeper at the modern version of DEI, it only serves minorities and women who are with the Democrat Party; political operatives like at NPR. There are few if any Conservative and Religious minorities in DEI. It is political scam, using a compassion loophole, that discriminates and takes away liberties, and then call that math, addition and not the subtraction, that it really is.

In terms of gender, schools, for a few years, pandered to a small minority of people, via the gender fad. They forced the majority to recite fringe catechism; pronouns, at the risk of punishment, if you did not conform. One was taught to learn evolution but ignore biology. The majority lost freedom of speech and religion. It was sold as doing good, but did so in a sinister, controlling, and even brain washing way. Small children were led to make life altering decisions behind their parent's backs. Child abuse is not a right.

Gender is similar to actors dressing up for a Halloween costume party, and staying in character. Gender is more based on an outward show. It is not a private thing that you hide away to be polite; let your personal stay personal. It but more like an actor, on a stage, and in your face; party time. Unlike Halloween where the fantasy for most, ends with the night, with gender, many stay in character long after the holiday is over. There are subsets of similar behavior like Furries, who dress up as animals; the whole world is a stage. There is also the gender benders who seek the role of a unique subset of the subset; pronoun sequences for character nuance.

This type of play is common to small children, who naturally used it to develop their imagination and mimicry. Nowadays, we live in a media centric culture where "likes" and "subscribers" means advertiser cash. The unique, bizarre and faddish has always been a lure. Back in early internet days, trolling meant that you would drag a net behind the boat to catch fish; likes and subscribers. Being unique, bizarre, controversial and state of the art faddish, are still the best trolling nets. The new actors set their own stage. Business is business. The term troll now is more like a negative mythology character that when attached to someone, allows them to discriminated against.

The long term problem for any actor appears to be type casting. Type casting is where you do such a good job with one nuance character, that you become pigeon holed. When it is time to change or reinvent your character, you cannot easily escape the past and your faithful audience. This can lead to later life depression.

 

[crossfire]

I think it is called DEI and reverse discrimination. Reverse discrimination was not originally called discrimination; self serving loophole. This is one way that was/is used to game the system. For example, DEI, which means diversity, equity and inclusion has been around since the 1960's. It did originally help women and minorities. But if you look deeper at the modern version of DEI, it only serves minorities and women who are with the Democrat Party; political operatives like at NPR. There are few if any Conservative and Religious minorities in DEI. It is political scam, using a compassion loophole, that discriminates and takes away liberties, and then call that math, addition and not the subtraction, that it really is.

Are the Washington State Declaration of Rights to not be discriminated against DEI? How do these specific declarations constitute reverse discrimination?

In terms of gender, schools, for a few years, pandered to a small minority of people, via the gender fad. They forced the majority to recite fringe catechism; pronouns, at the risk of punishment, if you did not conform. One was taught to learn evolution but ignore biology. The majority lost freedom of speech and religion. It was sold as doing good, but did so in a sinister, controlling, and even brain washing way. Small children were led to make life altering decisions behind their parent's backs. Child abuse is not a right.

What do these RCW's have to do with this? Are these cultural matters that will eventually get worked out, or is this something that the State will have to step in and make a legal matter?

Gender is similar to actors dressing up for a Halloween costume party, and staying in character. Gender is more based on an outward show. It is not a private thing that you hide away to be polite; let your personal stay personal. It but more like an actor, on a stage, and in your face; party time. Unlike Halloween where the fantasy for most, ends with the night, with gender, many stay in character long after the holiday is over. There are subsets of similar behavior like Furries, who dress up as animals; the whole world is a stage. There is also the gender benders who seek the role of a unique subset of the subset; pronoun sequences for character nuance.

This type of play is common to small children, who naturally used it to develop their imagination and mimicry. Nowadays, we live in a media centric culture where "likes" and "subscribers" means advertiser cash. The unique, bizarre and faddish has always been a lure. Back in early internet days, trolling meant that you would drag a net behind the boat to catch fish; likes and subscribers. Being unique, bizarre, controversial and state of the art faddish, are still the best trolling nets. The new actors set their own stage. Business is business. The term troll now is more like a negative mythology character that when attached to someone, allows them to discriminated against.

The long term problem for any actor appears to be type casting. Type casting is where you do such a good job with one nuance character, that you become pigeon holed. When it is time to change or reinvent your character, you cannot easily escape the past and your faithful audience. This can lead to later life depression.

If sex resides in biology, then gender resides in Jung's collective unconscious. While they are separate, both biology and the psyche are aspects of the total human being. There is a mind-body connection.

The question is: How much should cultural matters become legal matters? I see human rights declarations against being discriminated against regarding the specific things listed in the declaration as appropriate. You might not. How much further do you think the State should go when it comes to lawmaking in this manner, or should the State back off?

 

[crossfire]

I think it is called DEI and reverse discrimination. Reverse discrimination was not originally called discrimination; self serving loophole. This is one way that was/is used to game the system. For example, DEI, which means diversity, equity and inclusion has been around since the 1960's. It did originally help women and minorities. But if you look deeper at the modern version of DEI, it only serves minorities and women who are with the Democrat Party; political operatives like at NPR. There are few if any Conservative and Religious minorities in DEI. It is political scam, using a compassion loophole, that discriminates and takes away liberties, and then call that math, addition and not the subtraction, that it really is.

<...>

Regarding DEI: it seems that DEI is a managerial model for organizations. as far as DEI and lawmaking is concerned, the only things I could find are laws targeting or banning DEI in public institutions.

Diversity, equity, and inclusion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are you aware of any instances of legislation mandating the DEI model to be employed within organizations?

 

[Kfox]

Almost like it's a social construct.

No; social constructs are usually agreed upon; this is more like everybody makes up their own rules. That's why I don't address people by gender anymore.

 

[Kfox]

I think the question is so loaded people tend to be cautious in order to avoid saying something that will end up as a soundbite that will be played out of context.

A "woman" is someone who fit the social roles traditionally given to a female based on a particular time and culture.

So; if a biological female became a doctor, she is no longer a woman, because according to traditional sexist roles, women are the nurses, and it is MEN who were the doctors; is this the method to your madness?

Nope, it's not. The chromosomes deal with the development of the sex organs.

They also determine biological sex.

If a straight person were to have sex with someone with Androgen insensitivity syndrome who is genetically male but had developed as a female, would that make them gay?

It depends on if he is attracted to same sex or not.

I agree gender roles can be sexist. Taken out of that context and allowed to be freely played with in terms of fashion and names and identity, they can be creatively utilized.

What are some examples where gender roles can be creatively utilized?

 

[Kfox]

We have three genders in India: male, female and the 'third gender'. Where one enlists is one's choice.

Only 3? In New York, they have 31 Genders.

On New York City's 31 Recognized Gender Identities

And why we need to stick together this pride month

www.theodysseyonline.com

 

[Aupmanyav]

In India, they put all 31 or 72, whatever it is, in Category 'Third Gender'.

 

[crossfire]

So; if a biological female became a doctor, she is no longer a woman, because according to traditional sexist roles, women are the nurses, and it is MEN who were the doctors; is this the method to your madness?

Interesting take. Women seem to have much more leeway then men when it comes to cultural enforcement of gender roles. Is a male nurse considered to be unmanly and is he chided because he has taken on a traditionally feminine occupation? If so, who is most likely to do the chiding?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No; social constructs are usually agreed upon;

Not really. Lots of people disagree on socially constructed concepts.

this is more like everybody makes up their own rules.

Not quite. People are still influenced by the concept as it socially exists.

That's why I don't address people by gender anymore.

That's one way of doing it, I suppose.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

So; if a biological female became a doctor, she is no longer a woman, because according to traditional sexist roles, women are the nurses, and it is MEN who were the doctors; is this the method to your madness?

Note the "depending on time and culture" part. But I am glad you see how silly gender roles are.

They also determine biological sex.

Only because they regulate the chemicals during development that determine how sex organs grow. They themselves may not match with the sex organs.

Scientifically, there are several dimensions of sex: chromosomal, gonadal, hormonal, and psychological. All of these can get messy.

It's when we look at the sociological aspect of sex that gender begins to emerge. Arguably, the psychological as well, but until someone starts treating the person as separate from how they perceive themselves psychosocially, I am unsure how much of a problem that may become. Perhaps someone who has experienced gender dysphoria has a more personal experience with this?

It depends on if he is attracted to same sex or not.

Do you think he had sex with a male or a female?

What are some examples where gender roles can be creatively utilized?

Dress and makeup and how one presents themselves are the most obvious.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Who decided that there were 72 different genders?

Types of gender identity: Types and definitions

There are many types of gender identity. Learn more about their definitions, the difference between sex and gender, and how gender exists on a spectrum here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is a male nurse considered to be unmanly and is he chided because he has taken on a traditionally feminine occupation?

Nothing like that. In India, at least 20% of nurses in 2018 were male, according to a World Health Organization report on the country's health workforce in India. Google Search Feb. 20, 2023

 

[crossfire]

Nothing like that. In India, at least 20% of nurses in 2018 were male, according to a World Health Organization report on the country's health workforce in India. Google Search Feb. 20, 2023

It's about half that percentage here, but todays number is 10 times as much as it was 40 years ago.

Number Of Male Nurses Has Multiplied 10x In The Past 40 Years | NurseJournal.org

The nursing industry has changed significantly over the last 40 years, with one notable shift being the growing number of male nurses joining the ranks in this healthcare profession.

nursejournal.org

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's about half that percentage here, but todays number is 10 times as much as it was 40 years ago.

It is perhaps the other way in India. Number of male nurses is going down. So too, among Indian nurses outside India.

 

[Ignatius A]

And so bad actors can claim any old "gender identity" they want, and use that to game the system.

Yes but remember they can't tell us if they think someone with a penis who believes, thinks and feels that they are woman is actually a woman. So it follows then that if someone believes thinks and feels that they are genderqueer they may not actually be genderqueer. I'm just waiting until 2+2=5. I'm sure someone already says it does

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

"Gender Identity" (air quotes deliberate), is clearly a hot topic these days. And it's clear from many debates here on RF that there is a lot of confusion concerning how sex and gender relate to each other as concepts.

The following four (short) videos analyze how Washington state, Oregon, California, and Colorado define "gender identity" in their statutes.

As a summary, they don't really define it at all. They throw words at the problem, but in the end, no definition is forthcoming, at least in these four states. And I would suspect that it's not much better elsewhere.

It strikes me that "gender identity" has a lot of similarities with religion or other constructs of magical thinking. That's not good news in a country that purports to separate church from state

I wish for you to prove that the Law is about the USA and that the world is the USA.