How the Iroquois Great Law of Peace Shaped U.S. Democracy

[sun rise]

OP NOTE: This is a thread to honor the Native Americans not to discuss the horrible and despicable treatment they received nor how badly the US has lived up to its ideals.

This popped up on my news feed the other day. As we approach Thanksgiving, we owe thanks to the Iroquois peoples for their contribution to America's "gene pool"

How the Iroquois Great Law of Peace Shaped U.S. Democracy

The Iroquois Confederacy, founded by the Great Peacemaker in 11421, is the oldest living participatory democracy on earth 2. In 1988, the U.S. Senate paid tribute with a resolution3 that said, "The confederation of the original 13 colonies into one republic was influenced by the political system developed by the Iroquois Confederacy, as were many of the democratic principles which were incorporated into the constitution itself."
...
(table of contributions from the original web page

Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Restricts members from holding more than one office in the Confederacy.

US Constitution Article I, Section 6, Clause 2, also known as the Ineligibility Clause or the Emoluments Clause bars members of serving members of Congress from holding offices established by the federal government, while also baring members of the executive branch or judicial branch from serving in the U.S. House or Senate.


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Outlines processes to remove leaders within the Confederacy

US Constitution Article II, Section 4 reads “The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and the conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.”


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Designates two branches of legislature with procedures for passing laws

US Constitution Article I, Section 1, or the Vesting Clauses, read “All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.” It goes on to outline their legislative powers.


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Delineates who has the power to declare war

US Constitution Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, also known as the War Powers Clause, gives Congress the power, “To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;”


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Creates a balance of power between the Iroquois Confederacy and individual tribes

US Constitution The differing duties assigned to the three branches of the U.S. Government: Legislative (Congress), Executive (President), and Judicial (Supreme Court) act to balance and separate power in government.
...
The Native American model of governance that is fair and will always meet the needs of the seventh generation to come is taken from the Iroquois Confederacy. The seventh generation principle dictates that decisions that are made today should lead to sustainability for seven generations into the future. And Indigenous nations in North America were and are for the most part organized by democratic principles that focus on the creation of strong kinship bonds that promote leadership in which honor is not earned by material gain but by service to others.

In the plains, there was great honor in giving your horses to the poorest members of the tribe. The potlatch still practiced in the Pacific Northwest is another example of voluntarily redistributing wealth to those who have the least.

 

[icehorse]

We need to place a LOT !!!!! more emphasis on the "7th generation" world view.

One specific idea here is to amend how capitalistic success is measured. We should avoid rewarding short term success, and instead reward long term success and sustainability.

Great OP !

 

[metis]

OP NOTE: This is a thread to honor the Native Americans not to discuss the horrible and despicable treatment they received nor how badly the US has lived up to its ideals.

This popped up on my news feed the other day. As we approach Thanksgiving, we owe thanks to the Iroquois peoples for their contribution to America's "gene pool"

How the Iroquois Great Law of Peace Shaped U.S. Democracy

The Iroquois Confederacy, founded by the Great Peacemaker in 11421, is the oldest living participatory democracy on earth 2. In 1988, the U.S. Senate paid tribute with a resolution3 that said, "The confederation of the original 13 colonies into one republic was influenced by the political system developed by the Iroquois Confederacy, as were many of the democratic principles which were incorporated into the constitution itself."
...
(table of contributions from the original web page

Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Restricts members from holding more than one office in the Confederacy.

US Constitution Article I, Section 6, Clause 2, also known as the Ineligibility Clause or the Emoluments Clause bars members of serving members of Congress from holding offices established by the federal government, while also baring members of the executive branch or judicial branch from serving in the U.S. House or Senate.


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Outlines processes to remove leaders within the Confederacy

US Constitution Article II, Section 4 reads “The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and the conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.”


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Designates two branches of legislature with procedures for passing laws

US Constitution Article I, Section 1, or the Vesting Clauses, read “All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.” It goes on to outline their legislative powers.


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Delineates who has the power to declare war

US Constitution Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, also known as the War Powers Clause, gives Congress the power, “To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;”


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Creates a balance of power between the Iroquois Confederacy and individual tribes

US Constitution The differing duties assigned to the three branches of the U.S. Government: Legislative (Congress), Executive (President), and Judicial (Supreme Court) act to balance and separate power in government.
...
The Native American model of governance that is fair and will always meet the needs of the seventh generation to come is taken from the Iroquois Confederacy. The seventh generation principle dictates that decisions that are made today should lead to sustainability for seven generations into the future. And Indigenous nations in North America were and are for the most part organized by democratic principles that focus on the creation of strong kinship bonds that promote leadership in which honor is not earned by material gain but by service to others.

In the plains, there was great honor in giving your horses to the poorest members of the tribe. The potlatch still practiced in the Pacific Northwest is another example of voluntarily redistributing wealth to those who have the least.

BTW, the Iroquois only allowed the women to declare war as they felt that the men tended to be too gung-ho to fight.

 

[Left Coast]

OP NOTE: This is a thread to honor the Native Americans not to discuss the horrible and despicable treatment they received nor how badly the US has lived up to its ideals.

This popped up on my news feed the other day. As we approach Thanksgiving, we owe thanks to the Iroquois peoples for their contribution to America's "gene pool"

How the Iroquois Great Law of Peace Shaped U.S. Democracy

The Iroquois Confederacy, founded by the Great Peacemaker in 11421, is the oldest living participatory democracy on earth 2. In 1988, the U.S. Senate paid tribute with a resolution3 that said, "The confederation of the original 13 colonies into one republic was influenced by the political system developed by the Iroquois Confederacy, as were many of the democratic principles which were incorporated into the constitution itself."
...
(table of contributions from the original web page

Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Restricts members from holding more than one office in the Confederacy.

US Constitution Article I, Section 6, Clause 2, also known as the Ineligibility Clause or the Emoluments Clause bars members of serving members of Congress from holding offices established by the federal government, while also baring members of the executive branch or judicial branch from serving in the U.S. House or Senate.


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Outlines processes to remove leaders within the Confederacy

US Constitution Article II, Section 4 reads “The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and the conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.”


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Designates two branches of legislature with procedures for passing laws

US Constitution Article I, Section 1, or the Vesting Clauses, read “All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.” It goes on to outline their legislative powers.


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Delineates who has the power to declare war

US Constitution Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, also known as the War Powers Clause, gives Congress the power, “To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;”


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Creates a balance of power between the Iroquois Confederacy and individual tribes

US Constitution The differing duties assigned to the three branches of the U.S. Government: Legislative (Congress), Executive (President), and Judicial (Supreme Court) act to balance and separate power in government.
...
The Native American model of governance that is fair and will always meet the needs of the seventh generation to come is taken from the Iroquois Confederacy. The seventh generation principle dictates that decisions that are made today should lead to sustainability for seven generations into the future. And Indigenous nations in North America were and are for the most part organized by democratic principles that focus on the creation of strong kinship bonds that promote leadership in which honor is not earned by material gain but by service to others.

In the plains, there was great honor in giving your horses to the poorest members of the tribe. The potlatch still practiced in the Pacific Northwest is another example of voluntarily redistributing wealth to those who have the least.

Not to be a party pooper, but didn't our bicameral legislature derive from the British system with a House of Lords and House of Commons?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Our system is derived from a few sources, which is smart. Romans, Greeks, Indigenous folks.

 

[Onasander]

Did the Iroquois Confederation influence the Constitution? A myth they may be teaching your children - Independence Institute

The Iroquois Confederation is a worthy subject for study . . . . However, students should not be taught that it had any significant effect on the American Union or on the Constitution.

i2i.org

This essay was first published in the April 14, 2022 Epoch Times.

Some schools are teaching children that the formation of the American Union, and specifically the Constitution, were influenced heavily by the pre-existing federation of the Iroquois Indians. There are many websites making the same claim.

As someone with native ancestry, I’d be glad if it were true. But it’s demonstrably false. Parents who find out that their children are being fed this misinformation should insist that it be stopped. Parents may provide school administrators with this essay for support.

The Iroquois Great Law of Peace​

The Iroquois were based in New York State. They consisted initially of five groups. The Europeans and American colonists called these groups “tribes,” “cantons,” or “nations.”

The “Great Law of Peace” was the constitution of the Iroquois Confederation (pdf). It may have been adopted as early as the 12th century or as late as the 17th. In either case, it was older than the United States. In 1722, the Tuscarora people joined the confederation, thereby expanding it from five tribes to six. During the American Founding Era, the Iroquois Confederation was often referred to as the Six Nations.

The Great Law and the Iroquois Confederation were outstanding achievements, worthy of historical recognition and study. As we shall see, however, they didn’t have an appreciable influence on the American Union or on the Constitution.

Was Benjamin Franklin Influenced?​

Those who assert that the Iroquois Confederation influenced the Constitution rely heavily on the career of Benjamin Franklin. They note that Franklin’s printing company reproduced a 1744 speech by an Iroquois leader urging union among the American colonies. They also point to a 1751 letter from Franklin stating that if the Iroquois could unite, the colonies could, too. They say that Franklin “referenced” the Iroquois Confederation when proposing his own “Plan of Union” at an inter-colonial convention in 1754.

In fact, however, none of those events suggest that Franklin considered the Iroquois Confederation to be a model for an American constitution. Here’s why:

First, Franklin’s print shop reproduced the 1744 “unity speech” only because it was printing a volume collecting 13 negotiations leading to Indian treaties, and the speech happened to be in the records for one of the 13. The speech occupied only 10 lines in the 450-page volume.

Franklin’s 1751 letter mentioned unity, but contained no discussion of the institutions of the Iroquois or whether the colonies might copy them.

The 1754 document apparently was not even written by Franklin, but by Thomas Hutchinson. Hutchinson played no role in the crafting of the American Constitution; he was a Tory who fled to England during the Revolution. Moreover, the document touched mostly on colonial-Indian relations, not on the Iroquois form of government.

Even if these events were reliable indices of Franklin’s personal opinions, they would tell us little about influences on the other 54 framers decades later. They would tell us still less about the views of the 1648 state convention delegates who ratified the Constitution or of the public who elected those delegates.

More ‘Evidence’​

Advocates also enlist Thomas Jefferson, asserting that Jefferson’s father had some dealings with the natives, perhaps including the Iroquois. But there’s no evidence that those dealings involved the political structure of the Iroquois Confederation. Anyway, the younger Jefferson was in no position to impress his views upon the Constitution, because he was in France when it was written.

Advocates further cite alleged similarities between the Great Law and the Constitution. To be sure, all constitutions share some common features—but the Great Law and the U.S. Constitution share very few.

If you compare the two documents, you can see that they are products of very different cultures. The Constitution provides for general election of lawmakers, but the Great Law provides for matriarchical appointment. The Constitution imposes fixed terms on lawmakers, but in the Great Law the terms are for life or during good behavior. The Constitution is neutral among religions; the Great Law assumes a state religion. The Constitution generally treats states equally; the Great Law treats the tribes unequally. The Constitution prescribes a single oath—that of the president. The Great Law is filled with specific verbal incantations to be recited at particular times.

Reasons other than direct influence explain the few similarities. For example, both documents forbid multiple office holding. But the framers didn’t derive this idea from the Iroquois. It had been a key plank for decades in the “Radical Whig” political agenda, to which most of the American Founders subscribed.

Another alleged similarity is that both documents create bicameral legislatures. However, the Great Law structure is more nearly tri-cameral than bicameral. The Constitution’s framers copied bicameralism from the British Parliament, from the colonial legislatures, and from most state legislatures.

Still More ‘Evidence’​

The History.com website is among those promoting the “Iroquois influence” line. Here’s part of what it says:

“When the delegates to the Constitutional Convention met in 1787 … there were no contemporary democracies in Europe from which they could draw inspiration. The most democratic forms of government that any of the convention members had personally encountered were those of Native American nations. Of particular interest was the Iroquois Confederacy …. What evidence exists that the delegates studied Native governments? Descriptions of them appear in the three-volume handbook John Adams wrote for the convention surveying different types of governments and ideas about government. … t also included the Iroquois Confederacy and other Indigenous governments ….”

This short passage is wrong on several counts:

• There were relatively democratic countries in Europe, notably cantons in the Swiss confederation. The Founders were very much aware of them.
• The convention delegates were not seeking democracies, but republics and confederations—both democratic and aristocratic.
• John Adams did not compose his three-volume work for the Constitutional Convention. Adams, who was in Europe at the time, wrote in response to a French philosopher’s criticisms of American state constitutions. Hence the title: “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America.” Two of the three volumes were published after the convention had adjourned.
• The claim that Adams “included the Iroquois Confederacy and other Indigenous governments” in his volumes also is substantially false. Neither the Iroquois Confederacy nor any other native government were among the models Adams described.

Adams’s only reference to (unspecified) Indian governments was to observe in his preface that some were both partly aristocratic and partly democratic. He suggested more study of those governments.

What the Real Evidence Says​

Three documentary compilations tell us what did, and didn’t, influence the Constitution and the American Union. One is the 34-volume “Journals of the Continental Congress.” These are the records of the First Continental Congress (1774), the Second Continental Congress (1775–1781) (which drafted the Articles of Confederation), and the Confederation Congress (1781–1789). Another compilation is Max Farrand’s “The Records of the Federal Convention.” Originally three volumes, it now consists of four volumes and a shorter supplement. It reproduces all the available notes and records of the Constitutional Convention, as well as some collateral documents.

The third compilation is the “Documentary History of the Ratification of the Constitution,” currently at 36 volumes. The “Documentary History” includes the records of all the states’ ratifying conventions and documents from the public debate over the Constitution during the period 1787–1791. (The famous “Federalist Papers” make up a tiny fraction of these materials.)

If the Iroquois Confederacy were a significant influence on either the Articles of Confederation or the Constitution, then these sources should reflect that influence. But they do not.

The congressional journals contain no references to political structures of the Iroquois. The Iroquois are mentioned only in the context of land titles, fishery disputes, diplomatic relationships, and the Iroquois River.

The Constitutional Convention records include substantial discussion of European governments, but nothing about the Iroquois or the Five or Six Nations—not even from Franklin.

The ratification records feature discussions of many other confederations, but not the Iroquois Confederation.

Bottom line: The Great Law is a worthy subject for study by high school and college students. Comparing how the Great Law and the Constitution balance powers would be an excellent school exercise. However, students should not be taught that the Great Law had any significant effect on the American Union or on the Constitution.

 

[Orbit]

I will run this by one of the American historians at work and report back what he has to say about it.

 

[Orbit]

OK, I'm back. This is from a full professor of History:

"This is a subject that divides historians. Some feel that Benjamin Franklin brought an admiration for the Iroquois Confederation to the Constitutional Convention, and helped shape the document based on what he had seen of the Iroquois system of governance. Other historians point to the fact that there are no references to the Iroquois Confederations in the records of the deliberations the Constitutional Convention as proof that no such connection existed. I subscribed wholeheartedly to the Iroquois Confederation theory, but now I'm leaning in the other direction"

 

[Augustus]

OK, I'm back. This is from a full professor of History:

"This is a subject that divides historians. Some feel that Benjamin Franklin brought an admiration for the Iroquois Confederation to the Constitutional Convention, and helped shape the document based on what he had seen of the Iroquois system of governance. Other historians point to the fact that there are no references to the Iroquois Confederations in the records of the deliberations the Constitutional Convention as proof that no such connection existed. I subscribed wholeheartedly to the Iroquois Confederation theory, but now I'm leaning in the other direction"

I’m always a bit sceptical of theories that are ambiguously plausible, but not really supported by much substantial evidence yet neatly fit into something desirable to a modern ideological paradigm.

History has always been something which folk use to tell a story about the present as much as the past (if not more so).

But it’s not like the traditional story of US independence is even remotely concerned with historical accuracy over ideological myth making anyway.

 

[jbg]

I will run this by one of the American historians at work and report back what he has to say about it.Reply

I’m always a bit sceptical of theories that are ambiguously plausible, but not really supported by much substantial evidence yet neatly fit into something desirable to a modern ideological paradigm.

History has always been something which folk use to tell a story about the present as much as the past (if not more so).

But it’s not like the traditional story of US independence is even remotely concerned with historical accuracy over ideological myth making anyway.

My own feeling is that small states have a natural tendency to fight, federate or both. Examples are the Holy Roman Empire, the U.S., Canada and more recently Europe. I think "parallel" is a better word. I doubt that the Iroquois example was a model; it was an example of the same phenomena.

 

[JIMMY12345]

OP NOTE: This is a thread to honor the Native Americans not to discuss the horrible and despicable treatment they received nor how badly the US has lived up to its ideals.

This popped up on my news feed the other day. As we approach Thanksgiving, we owe thanks to the Iroquois peoples for their contribution to America's "gene pool"

How the Iroquois Great Law of Peace Shaped U.S. Democracy

The Iroquois Confederacy, founded by the Great Peacemaker in 11421, is the oldest living participatory democracy on earth 2. In 1988, the U.S. Senate paid tribute with a resolution3 that said, "The confederation of the original 13 colonies into one republic was influenced by the political system developed by the Iroquois Confederacy, as were many of the democratic principles which were incorporated into the constitution itself."
...
(table of contributions from the original web page

Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Restricts members from holding more than one office in the Confederacy.

US Constitution Article I, Section 6, Clause 2, also known as the Ineligibility Clause or the Emoluments Clause bars members of serving members of Congress from holding offices established by the federal government, while also baring members of the executive branch or judicial branch from serving in the U.S. House or Senate.


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Outlines processes to remove leaders within the Confederacy

US Constitution Article II, Section 4 reads “The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and the conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors.”


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Designates two branches of legislature with procedures for passing laws

US Constitution Article I, Section 1, or the Vesting Clauses, read “All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.” It goes on to outline their legislative powers.


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Delineates who has the power to declare war

US Constitution Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, also known as the War Powers Clause, gives Congress the power, “To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;”


Iroquois Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace Creates a balance of power between the Iroquois Confederacy and individual tribes

US Constitution The differing duties assigned to the three branches of the U.S. Government: Legislative (Congress), Executive (President), and Judicial (Supreme Court) act to balance and separate power in government.
...
The Native American model of governance that is fair and will always meet the needs of the seventh generation to come is taken from the Iroquois Confederacy. The seventh generation principle dictates that decisions that are made today should lead to sustainability for seven generations into the future. And Indigenous nations in North America were and are for the most part organized by democratic principles that focus on the creation of strong kinship bonds that promote leadership in which honor is not earned by material gain but by service to others.

In the plains, there was great honor in giving your horses to the poorest members of the tribe. The potlatch still practiced in the Pacific Northwest is another example of voluntarily redistributing wealth to those who have the least.

How exactly have things changed?