How old is the universe?

[Mr Cheese]

I would agree with this but I find it interesting that it is those who do not believe in any of the Bible who want to take it so literally while some of us who use the Bible do not always do so ourselves but recognize some of its figurative lessons of which that ( six day creation) is such an excellent example. I would point out that the Big Bang and Hubble's observation of the expansion of the universe was scientific evidence of the creation of the universe as opposed to a popularly held theory that the universe had always existed. The Big Bang does nothing for atheism and only puts into doubt what is seen as only figurative by many believers. The same of course applys to Darwins evolution. Seen for what it is , a process, it does not in anyway question the existence of God when evolution is understood in its own context.To use an analogy, there is a process to baking and decorating a cake but after the process is complete no one says that the cake made itself or that the process of making the cake was the baker. The process and the baker are recognized as being independent of each other. And God I believe used evolution as His process for the developement of modern man. Some might say why but why a butterfly out of a caterpillar? Why not. I believe at the heart of the matter for many it is that their belief in God needs to be grounded in their understanding of God which is total futility. No one can possibly understand what is only partially known.

ok....

what is opartially known...right

what differentiates scripture (of any kind) from a novel or text book, is that the words and stories can be seen in MANY ways. My problem is the idea that their is only one way to see scripture. Take the days of creation..... many assume it is a literal series of days or spans of aeons, or similar. Another way is to look at the idea that the 7 days are the 7 directions that make up space... Kabbalah tends to do this.
I can post a wholly Judaic quotation from the 15th century that confirms this, if you want.

up
down
left
right
forward
back
"within"

Thus there are many ways to see scripture.... these are but a few.

People that believe in a literal 6 days of creation, tend to do so, as they have been taught what to think...and think there is no need to look for alternatives.

 

[LittleNipper]

That still doesn't make the idea of the universe being created in 6 days any more real....

Nor does an "educated guess" that the entire universe, and everything in it, was the end result of some spectacular but silent explosion of compacted matter become more real ---- or even logical...

 

[LittleNipper]

Have you read a 4000 plus year old book devoted to "Pink elves?" Have scientists created biological life out of the inert? *edit*[/quote]

You're like some kind of ninja at missing the point.

I'm not missing the point, but you don't seem to appreciate my responces...
Though being kicked by a ninja might be unsettling...

 

[LittleNipper]

I've read 2,000+ year old writings on individuals using reason to measure the circumference of the Earth and other scientific endeavors. Do you not see the distinction between those using empiricism v. relying on tradition or authority.

Well, the earth certainly is round, it also hangs on nothing.

 

[LittleNipper]

Are you Hindu? The Vedas are older than anything in the Bible.

That is questionable. The Egyptians and the Hittites would seem to surpass India.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm not missing the point, but you don't seem to appreciate my responces...

I don't appreciate responses which don't address my point.

 

[LittleNipper]

I don't appreciate responses which don't address my point.

Did JESUS say anything to Herod? Sometimes it is better that people work things out for themselves instead of relying the answers of others simply to make light of them.......

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Did JESUS say anything to Herod? Sometimes it is better that people work things out for themselves instead of relying the answers of others simply to make light of them.......

Another unappreciated response.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Nor does an "educated guess" that the entire universe, and everything in it, was the end result of some spectacular but silent explosion of compacted matter become more real ---- or even logical...

its far more logical than saying:

Its in the bible, so it must be true.

......

Bible literalism is a product of only a few centuries, i.e. the application of the bible being seen literally is somethign people have really been only doing for a few centuries. The readers 2 or more more thousand years ago, would not have taken scripture at such a limited stance alone, as you do.

The idea that the earth or even the universe, afterall that IS what this topic is about, was created in a literal six days (some time before the fall of man...as you say) is simply idiotic. It takes far more than 6 days for a lump of rock to form for example, let alone the stars....

Of course you are entitled to your view point, but in a scientific forum, or context in this case, don't be surprised if people laugh at you; your stance is one of scripture and doctrine, it is in no way scientific or simply logical at all. This only illustrates the idea that fundamentalists, of any kind, simply do not think...... Even the vatican denounces the idea of a literal 6 days as stupid.

 

[Mr Cheese]

That is questionable. The Egyptians and the Hittites would seem to surpass India.

Bible scripture is from near the end of ancient Egypt....



Your point is superfluous

• Late Bronze Age (ca. 1600 to 1200 BC) approximate dates shown
  • 1500 BC Hittite military oath
  • 1500-1100 BC Vedic Sanskrit Rigveda (redaction likely around 800 BC)
  • 1550 BC Egyptian Book of the Dead
  • 1400 BC Hurrian & UgariticAmarna Letters
  • ca. 15th to 14th c. BC: the earliest Mycenaean GreekLinear B inscriptions
  • ca. 14th to 12th c. BC: Anyangoracle bone inscriptions
  • 1330 BC Great Hymn to the Aten
  • 1240 BC Papyrus of Ani, Book of the Dead
  • the Babylonian Poor Man of Nippur
  • the Epic of Gilgamesh (Akkadian version)
  • the older Avesta on Ancient Iranian faiths
  • Tale of Two Brothers from the Egyptian Papyrus D'Orbiney by the scribe Ennana.[1]

[edit] Iron Age



Iron Age texts predating Classical Antiquity (12th to 8th centuries BC):

• 11th c. BC Egyptian Story of Wenamun
• ca. 12th to 9th c. BC: Yajurveda, Atharvaveda
• ca. 11th c. BC: Gatha Avestan text by Zoroaster
• ca. 11th c. BC: Oldest portions (hymns) of the Shijing
• ca. 10th to 9th c. BC: I Ching
• ca. 9th to 7th c. BC: Brahmanas
• ca. 9th to 7th c. BC: Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Chandogya Upanishad, Jaiminiya Upanishad Brahmana
• ca. 9th to 6th c. BC: older parts of the Hebrew Bible (see dating the Bible)
  • Pentateuch
  • Book of Joshua
  • Book of Isaiah

Ancient literature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[LittleNipper]

Another unappreciated response.

Nothing wrong with questions, unless one has ulterior motives.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Nothing wrong with questions, unless one has ulterior motives.

The point isn't even visible anymore.

 

[MSizer]

Aha - no, it's the Dunning-Kruger Effect. (Found it).

LOL! I love it! There are so many examples of it, and now I have a name for the phenomenon. Thank you!

 

[tumbleweed41]

That is questionable. The Egyptians and the Hittites would seem to surpass India.

Oh...you have seen their scriptures?

Well, the earth certainly is round, it also hangs on nothing.

Do they even teach science in your school? If so, how are you getting any passing grades?

 

[darkendless]

actually no....

the real smart ones know everything is a compramise...

it is a means to an end. Science knows, the map is not the territory. So do all the people accused of ignorance.

of course many assume the map is the territory, but if one digs deep enugh, science, philosophy, math etc etc all know, its a compramise....an approximation.

Science does not deal with the truth...thats the the truth

Yeh i'm aware of that, but its not that simple. Lets go with digging.

If you dig deep enough you'll hit bedrock. However, whats between there and the surface is often hard to tell. Geological tests will omit dense layers overlying less dense and more susceptible to movement layers. When buildings are constructed, do you think they dig down to bedrock to make sure everything is ok? Definately not. Its a massive approximation.

What i was trying to say is that if you can't know for sure, and approximation isn't good enough (for theologians in regards to science it never is), criticisers should never enter concrete footed houses

 

[Enoch07]

What i was trying to say is that if you can't know for sure, and approximation isn't good enough (for theologians in regards to science it never is), criticisers should never enter concrete footed houses

That is funny because evidence for the existence of God (Thread by PureX), is never good enough to even count as evidence (not proof mind you...just evidence of), for atheist. But any evidence at all (regardless of how stupid it is) against the existence is openly accepted. Just an observation.

 

[darkendless]

That is funny because evidence for the existence of God (Thread by PureX), is never good enough to even count as evidence (not proof mind you...just evidence of), for atheist. But any evidence at all (regardless of how stupid it is) against the existence is openly accepted. Just an observation.

Evidence in science always has a leg to stand on. Biblical evidence does not.

 

[Enoch07]

Evidence in science always has a leg to stand on. Biblical evidence does not.

He (PureX) had a sound argument, that had nothing to do with the Bible. As I said it is not proof of existence but some well thought out (non-biblical) evidence.

 

[mordorf]

The universe is about 13 billion years old.. science have come to that conclusion when they have followed the cosmic microwave background..
And for now scientists can't come any closer to the big bang more than a planck epoch wich is 10−43 seconds after the big bang happend..

 

[darkendless]

He (PureX) had a sound argument, that had nothing to do with the Bible. As I said it is not proof of existence but some well thought out (non-biblical) evidence.

Well thought is equivalent to fabricating BS. There is no evidence of something that is not there (yet/revealed).