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How many people here live outside the left-right paradigm?

Discussion in 'Political Debates' started by YeshuaRedeemed, Dec 6, 2018.

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  1. Duke_Leto

    Duke_Leto Active Member

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    I mean, obviously balance that with its probable killing and definite internment of millions of ethnic minorities and political enemies. I wouldn’t want to seem like I’m defending the state’s practices. But thanks for the compliment!
     
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  2. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    No valid reason.
     
  3. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    How can we astablish whether its valid or not if we havent yet astablished what the actual reason is?

    Plus, if theres going to be a mass genocide, wouldent it be very important to know the motive?

    In murder cases, motive can make or break the person going to jail or not.
     
  4. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Exist we have established a number of reasons such as the landlord reference.

    Again we have already established some motives. Motives which do not justify genocide when one has God powers.

    Not in murder cases otherwise that would be manslaughter. More so by your own comparison you have established the link between wrongs not only by legal code but religious thus immoral. Ergo you have unwittingly conceded the moral point. Reasons for genocide does not make it immoral as per the murder comparison.
     
  5. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Ok.....here in your landlord quote you still dont mention Gods motive. You just question his power or method of eviction.

    "Which time? When God the landlord decide to evict the Canaanites because God apparently could get them to move? Or the time of warfare to exterminate a whole people because they lived on the wrong side of the Jordan."

    So, whats his motive?

    Power and motive are not the same. Your merely questioning his power and method.

    But, what is his motive?

    Misunderstanding.

    If the accused of murder can astablish he killed in defense for instance, then they dont go to jail. So, motive is important.
     
  6. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    If God is ordering the removal of current inhabitants for new ones he favors that is a motive. You just couldn't figure it out.

    I never said they were, strawman. I am pointing out with the power of God using humans to conduct the genocide shows God in that case is a fiction used as an excuse.

    God has no reason for self-defense as humans can not harm God. The Hebrews had not been in Canaan for centuries thus have no reason for self-defense. More so they were the aggressors thus self-defense claims are useless.
     
  7. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    Ok, i see what your saying. But, what im getting at is what is his motive in favoring isreal over the cannanites?

    Also, why not bring isreal to another uninhabited land?

    Yes, his motive in evicting the cananites was to bring isreal in, but what was his motive for doing THAT?

    It does not firmly show that though. Although i understand how you could see that. It could equally show that Gods METHODS are different then his OPTIONS. His power gives him the option to remove the cananites many different ways, but, his ways make him choose one option.

    So, method and power, also not the same.

    Also humans having an "excuse" does not make sense to me because if this genecide was a human idea, then they would have there own reason for it. A motive.

    Well thats true, but my use of the kill/court case/self defense was an illustration only to make a point that motive is important in the accused.

    Ok, despite my story only being a illustration to make a point about motive, ill build it this way: If someone stole my car keys and ran off and took my car and now my car is officially in there posession, and i then find them and see my car in there drive way and then break into THERE HOUSE in order to get my keys back, this then shows a different motive.

    Circumstantially it would appear by a neighbor witness that im a theif breaking into a house. But the motive is im merely wanting my keys back.
     
  8. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    It doesn't matter in regards to genocide and God powers.

    God is incompetent to the point of being limited by human modes of transportation.

    Guilt

    The way is genocide? Hilarious. This really reflect primitive thinking which merely restrict God to human tendencies and capabilities.

    Never said they were. I was pointing out power provide the capability to do things beyond what a human, limited power, can do such as genocide.

    Territorial disputes, religious disputes, economic disputes, resource disputes.... Take your pick. If you think humans are not capable of genocide you lack a grasp of history.

    I was saying the excuse "God told us to" as a facade while also using DCT to make it moral.

    The pointed failed as the aggressors can not claim self-defense by the fact of being aggressors.

    According to the Bible Hebrews were not in Canaan for over 400 years thus abandoned the area. No theft involved.
     
  9. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I think it does matter. If humans deserve a fair trial, doesent God too?

    What if its not limitation, what if its his choice of method?

    Technically yea, God could teleport isreal to the destination, but, where would the JOURNY be with that? Where would the respect for the processes of life be? Patience and charector and hard work would be depreciated.

    Ok, break that down more for my stupid brain. Gods motive in evicting Canaan and bringing isreal in was guilt? Guilt of what?

    Yes, genocide, why not?

    Fair enough.

    Fair enough.

    Fair enough. What does DCT stand for? Sorry.

    If i leave my house to go away on a journy and a squatter comes in and occupies it, then if i return, see him there and kick him out, am i then the aggressor and hes now not a theif?
     
  10. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I got something else for you. Take a look at this in the book of jubilees

    "12. And there came forth on the writing as Shem's lot 2 the middle of the earth 3 which he should take as an inheritance for himself and for his sons for the generations of eternity"

    In the footnote it says this

    "72:6 The secret division of the earth is followed by an authoritative one by Noah, and made binding on his descendants. Canaan is included in Shem's lot. Hence, the Israelite conquest p. 73 later is justified."

    https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jub/jub22.htm#fn_291

    So, shem who comes the isrealites, he is allotted the land of Jerusalem and so forth.

    This is done by lot castings, which was a way to do away with favoritism.

    So, God was NOT playing favorites. The lot was cast fairly. Whoever did not like there lot, and stole the other, God would then see to it they pay for there crime.

    God is a good parrent in the sense that he enacts FIRM discapline. You steel, you pay for the crime. Another generation makes no difference.
     
  11. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    When God shows up we can talk about trials.

    Which merely demonstrates God is immoral and callus

    Teleportation need not be at the beginning.

    Where is the respect for other humans while they are slaughtered by the hard working Hebrews?

    Guilt of sitting around doing nothing for 4 centuries including the reasons for abandoning Canaan, doing nothing to stop new and current inhabitants for settling just off the top of my head.

    As genocide is justified by fallacious logic namely guilt by association. It reflects a flawed human mind and human rationale. Ergo an excuse use to make genocide moral because God said so.

    [/quote]What does DCT stand for? Sorry. [/quote]

    Nothing to apologize for. I used an abbreviation and assumed you would know it. That is my problem not yours.


    Divine Command Theory. Something is moral because God says it is moral. Ergo genocide is moral because God said it was.

    If you car abandoned for 400 years yet had the capability of returning, which Joseph had as Vicroy, you have no case. Go look up abandoned property laws.
     
  12. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Yet God played favorites when it comes to Hebrews vs others. Your comparison is between existing favorites after he wiped out the unfavorable. Remember who Shem and Noah are...


    God is one of the worst parents considering he murdered his own "children" repeatedly.

    See how fallacious your thinking when you think parents that murder their children are good parents. God is nothing more than absentee father figure.

    Crimes of the father are not crimes of the son. No Western nation hold this as law including Christian nations. Heck there is a Biblical law against it.... Deut. 24:16
     
  13. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    God does not show unfair favoritism. Whoever obeyed his laws wer the ones he favored. Those that did not, and that even INCLUDED isreal, he punished.

    The casting of lots was used to RULE OUT favoritism. God instituted lot casting to PROVE he was not showing unfair favoritism. The lot casting would rule out biases, or politics or human desires. It was a means to distrubute the land FAIRLY.

    So you just proved my point, God shows no favoritism. Those who obey, he blesses, those who dont, receive the punushments.

    That is a good parrent because that parrent is consistent in there discapline. They mean business.

    He was not absent though. And those he killed wer the ones that did evil.

    Yes, thats true. However, that law applied to the civilization or societal kingdom of isreal within. Not WITHOUT in the case of war.

    In the case of isreals wars with canaan it was justified due to theift of land.

    So IF God wer to show up, youd even attempt to talk about putting him on trial? Thats interesting. How would that work? :cool:o_O:)

    Ok, so what should have been Gods method at the beginning?

    No respect for the law breakers. Remember, the lot was cast, the land was distributed. The law was set, no theift.

    Wait a second now. I dont agree he was sitting around doing nothing. God sends messengers with the message to reform and repent. If they dont listen, God is patient, for a time. Then he acts. So, there was no guilt. He did this because of canaans guilt.

    Deuteronomy 9:5

    "It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

    One of the wickedness was sacrificing there babies to moloch.

    Ok, understood. But, God did not arbitrarily deem genocide as moral. Aspeasaly not all forms of genecide either. God takes into account motives and practices.

    The land was stolen. Plus the practices of canaan wer wicked.

    Your forgetting one important factoid here. There was a famine through the land. Egypt under josephs wisdom had food due to saving it in there 7 years of abundence.

    So, the people had no choice but to go to egypt and buy food. Then they had to return and buy more. Finally, to stay alive, they had to sell themselves as slaves.

    They wer not abandoning there land and houses, they needed to survive.

    Also on top of this, God did not have abandoned property laws. The lot was cast and there lot was SET "forever".

    Now, if they GIVE it away, THATS ANOTHER ballgame. Then there signing away the title deed of whats rightfully theirs. But, thats not the case here. They did NOT give there land or deed away.
     
  14. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Which only establishes God ignored the later Sins of the Father law.

    Between favorites. Remember everyone else but 1 family was dead killed by God.

    Nope. You merely ignored a part of my point namely it is frowned upon to murder ones children to the point it is illegal in most nations. Ergo God would be a criminal in the US.

    Consistence abuse does not make a good parents nor does consistent murder. It is like saying a serial killer being consistent is a good thing.

    Yes he was as a number of people were not killed for doing evil. Joseph's brothers for example

    Double-standards then which merely reflects favoritism. You provided my point.

    The land was abandoned for 4 over centuries. Ownership claims are null.

    You brought up a trial. If God is on trial I can question God directly. Ergo your example was weak as God is no defendant that can be forced by law to show. Heck he can not even show on his own accord.

    As per Judges, changing the minds of the individuals as God has zero issue doing so while order genocide

    Since you won't spare children and consider them guilty for the crimes of the father you are an immoral monster no different from Hitler.

    Land was abandoned. Claims are void.

    You are misinterpreting what I consider guilt. I am taking about the famine in Canaan.

    God didn't drive them out. Hebrew swords and slaughter did. So you merely show that God actually didn't fulfill his promise.

    Changing this does not require genocide.


    Genocide is immoral itself as it requires fallacious thinking thus is arbitrary.

    [/quote]

    Nope it was abandoned.

    And he never bothered returning to Canaan. Ergo abandoned his land. I

    Which only shows they are horrible at their trade and God didn't bother to help with fish sandwiches as per Jesus. I hope you realize the Canaan was not uninhabited thus there were alternative.

    Wrong.

    http://www.broydeblog.net/uploads/8/0/4/0/80408218/the_return_of_lost_property__1995_s.pdf
     
  15. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    If someone steels my car and gives it to there son and i go to the son and ask for it back and they refuse saying they should not have to because there dad did the theift, not them, thats no different then the theift itself because they arent willing to make right the wrong when its in there power to do so. So, now the son is guilty.

    God did not show unfair favoritism to noah.

    He killed the nephilim hybrids and killed the wicked humans. Noah was rightious.

    These nephilim wer also back on the scene in the conquest of canaan too.

    Genesis 6 NIV

    "4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

    5The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

    Noah and the Flood

    9This is the account of Noah and his family.

    Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.

    The USA dont get to decide if God is a criminal. God gets to decide if the USA is a criminal.

    The only thing is its not abuse and its not serial. God sets down laws. He states the consequences to breaking them. If he does not inforce it when there broken, how can you respect him?

    Just because Gods punishments are severe (death) does not make it wrong. In fact, on a logical standpoint if you up the severity of punishment to breaking the law, then you lower incentive to breaking the law. Hence, you have a society whos crime rate is drastically lowered, mayby none existent.

    But look at why Josephs brothers wer not killed. It was because Joseph did not do it. That was not on God. That was on Joseph. In fact, lets go further, God told isreal to destroy ALL the inhabitants of canaan. They destroyed SOME, but not ALL. Well, thats not on God, thats on Isreal. They desobeyed the order to fully exterminate.

    Now, going back to Joseph. SOMETIMES God shows MERCY when people show a change of heart. In Josephs case, you know how the story goes, Joseph TESTS his brothers in order to SEE if there hearts had changed. He saw they did, so, he FORGAVE THEM.

    Also, to add more to this: God promotes a none hypocritical approuch. In otherwords, Joseph KNEW he was being somewhat cocky with his brothers when he told them his dream that they would bow down to him. Even though Joseph was being honest in that, he was not being wise and that lack of wisdom infuriated his brothers. So, Joseph knew he played a part in FEEDING that fire. So, it made double sense to not only forgive his brothers because they changed, but also forgive there wrong, because he also did a mild wrong as well.

    But, gauss what, THERES MORE TO ADD. Joseph needed them to take food home to there family and his father.

    So, when mercy is applied, and justice is applied, its all a case by case basis. God weighs the motives.

    The law of the child not being punished for the parrent was internal to the kingdom. But, hey, even if it was not, still, the child thats given the stolen property by the father, even though the child is innocent of that theift, there no longer once they find out and refuse to return the property.

    There not null. The land was not occupied, but that dont mean it was forsaken or thrown away.

    Genesis 48

    "21Then Israel said to Joseph, “I am about to die, but God will be with you and take you back to the land of your fathers."

    Genesis 48 NIV

    So, they did not throw away the land as there property. In another passage he even instructed to be burried there in the plot of land that they owned. So, he would be taken out of egypt and burried in canaan.

    They wer ONLY in egypt for food. Thats it.

    Some people today have traveling occupations, there away from home for months, mayby years, who knows.

    Would it be justified for squatters to take over there homes and get to keep them just because there away due to there jobs that they do in order to survive?

    Fair enough, i did bring up the trial didnt I? Lol....so...i will leave that one be. :confused:

    Changing minds takes away free will and thus makes robots.

    Ok, let me explain some justified reasons for why the children wer killed.

    1: some of these children wer nephalim (not fully human). God ordered angels not to mingle.

    2: the children may have been innocent of the direct thieft of there parrents, but by refusing to give the land back, they now make themselves guilty.

    3: alot of these parrents wer sacrificing there fully human babies to moloch, so, very few ACTUAL human babies would be around to kill even if isreal wanted to kill them. God even voiced disdain of baby sacrifice.

    4: isreal had there OWN babies to take care of, why burden them with other babies not there own?

    5: Isreal had no need to directly kill babies, they would have died on there own.

    Now 4 and 5 may seam heartless, but keep in mind, all of nature outside civilization, in a darwinian kingdom is heartless. Its not that way because of evil but because of survival.

    It is what it is.

    Im still not understanding then. Explain more for me?

    Gods method of fullfilling the promise was THROUGH using isreals swords. God still lays on people responsibility.

    Even if the genocide was one big justice/punishment act?

    I addressed this above. He did not abandon it. I showed the passage. Theres another passage too if you want me get it.

    Technically they all COULD have done what Joseph did, save in the abundent years. But, perhaps they never knew of the famine comming like Joseph knew.

    Property within the kingdom. A sword, a donkey, ect, not the same as land. But even small posessions had to be returned if the owner was found.

    Also, this jewish book is not the moses book.

    But, all of that makes no difference because the passages that say God allotted the land to shem (which came isreal) was set "forever" per the passages.
     
    #75 Jollybear, Dec 10, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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