How many Christian Churches are there?

[Katzpur]

Except Universalists

Possibly. But I'm not sure whether you're talking about Unitarian Universalists (of whom probably the majority aren't Christian at all) or "universalist Christians," meaning Christians who belong to no specific denomination but just believe in a universal salvation. I could be wrong, but I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only Christian denomination that teaches of an almost universal salvation, as a core point of doctrine.

 

[Katzpur]

I think the deity of Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Phil. 2:5c-6) would infer the doctrine of the Trinity.

Interesting. I totally accept the truthfulness of that verse, but don't see the Trinity in it at all. (Of course, when I use the word "Trinity," I'm speaking of the concept of God as it was established in 325 A.D.. I'm not speaking of the biblical concept known as the "Godhead.")

 

[javajo]

Possibly. But I'm not sure whether you're talking about Unitarian Universalists (of whom probably the majority aren't Christian at all) or "universalist Christians," meaning Christians who belong to no specific denomination but just believe in a universal salvation. I could be wrong, but I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only Christian denomination that teaches of an almost universal salvation, as a core point of doctrine.

Just in the sense of people who believe everyone will eventually be saved. While Jesus said that many are on the road to destruction and few the way to eternal life, I do wish everyone could be saved and I hope your church is right that most will. That would be wonderful!

Interesting. I totally accept the truthfulness of that verse, but don't see the Trinity in it at all. (Of course, when I use the word "Trinity," I'm speaking of the concept of God as it was established in 325 A.D.. I'm not speaking of the biblical concept known as the "Godhead.")

You say tomatoes, I say 'maters. We can let that poor little puppy lie tonite. I wanted to wish you a very Happy Thanksgiving and its always nice to 'talk' with you.

 

[work in progress]

I believe some clarification is in order with respect to Mormonism. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does claim to the the sole church today to be acting under the authorization of Jesus Christ, we definitely don't say that all other denominations are "not truly Christian." We believe that there is good and truth in all Churches and definitely don't believe Heaven is just reserved for us. As a matter of fact, we probably believe in the biggest Heaven and the littlest Hell of any Christian denomination there is.

Okay, I'll except Mormons! I was under the impression that the LDS see themselves as the only exclusive true church...but, I'll take your word on this one.

 

[work in progress]

Possibly. But I'm not sure whether you're talking about Unitarian Universalists (of whom probably the majority aren't Christian at all) or "universalist Christians," meaning Christians who belong to no specific denomination but just believe in a universal salvation.

As the name indicates, the Unitarian Universalists are an amalgamation of two churches. There are still some who are Unitarian Christians (who don't accept the Trinity) and since it became liberal on doctrine many decades ago, and accepted universal salvation, an amalgamation with the Universalists was a natural progression.

In more recent times, the U U's have dropped all doctrinal requirements, and acceptance of the 7 U.U. principles is the only requirement that members have to uphold. And that's why everyone else is confused about what they believe in. The prevailing atmosphere of any particular U.U. church can vary from place to place. Some might be mostly Christian...although the one in my town seems likely to have more atheists/agnostics and pagans and wiccans of some sort, than they have people professing to be Christians.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I think the deity of Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Phil. 2:5c-6) would infer the doctrine of the Trinity.

Yeah, I cannot consider this belief to be Christian, sorry.

Why be sorry?

What we all believe is between ourselves and God.
God does not consult anyone else on these things.
However he is more likely to be concerned about how we live our lives.
Than he is about details of our beliefs.

We can not do better than follow the teachings of Jesus in love.

Some Churches are more about, that we believe as they do, than what we do with that knowledge.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

As the name indicates, the Unitarian Universalists are an amalgamation of two churches. There are still some who are Unitarian Christians (who don't accept the Trinity) and since it became liberal on doctrine many decades ago, and accepted universal salvation, an amalgamation with the Universalists was a natural progression.

In more recent times, the U U's have dropped all doctrinal requirements, and acceptance of the 7 U.U. principles is the only requirement that members have to uphold. And that's why everyone else is confused about what they believe in. The prevailing atmosphere of any particular U.U. church can vary from place to place. Some might be mostly Christian...although the one in my town seems likely to have more atheists/agnostics and pagans and wiccans of some sort, than they have people professing to be Christians.

The UU's are very much an "American" phenomenon, they have spread to other countries. But Christian Unitarian churches are rather easier to find in Europe.

 

[javajo]

Why be sorry?

What we all believe is between ourselves and God.
God does not consult anyone else on these things.
However he is more likely to be concerned about how we live our lives.
Than he is about details of our beliefs.

We can not do better than follow the teachings of Jesus in love.

Some Churches are more about, that we believe as they do, than what we do with that knowledge.

While God no doubt is concerned with how we live our lives, what we believe is very important as well, as many have faith, but it is the object of their faith that is most important. If one places their faith in Christ who died for them, they are on solid ground, but if they place their faith in their own goodness or in anything other than Christ and his atoning death, they are in grave danger. If you take one of these core beliefs like the Virgin Birth and say you do not believe that, you are on a slippery downward slope because when you deny the Virgin Birth you are saying that:

Christ was an illegitimate child since Mary was not married when He was conceived.
Mary was a fornicator and not blessed above all women.
God is a liar in Mat. 1:22-23.
Christ is not the only begotten Son of God, which he acknowledged he was.
Christ is not God as he had a physical father just like us.
Christ was a sinner as he had a physical father.

That last one is very important because if Christ had a physical father then he inherited the sin-nature the Bible says was passed down to all mankind by Adam, so he would have been a sinner and not able to pay our sin-debt. The Bible is clear that, he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

While God no doubt is concerned with how we live our lives, what we believe is very important as well, as many have faith, but it is the object of their faith that is most important. If one places their faith in Christ who died for them, they are on solid ground, but if they place their faith in their own goodness or in anything other than Christ and his atoning death, they are in grave danger. If you take one of these core beliefs like the Virgin Birth and say you do not believe that, you are on a slippery downward slope because when you deny the Virgin Birth you are saying that:

Christ was an illegitimate child since Mary was not married when He was conceived.
Mary was a fornicator and not blessed above all women.
God is a liar in Mat. 1:22-23.
Christ is not the only begotten Son of God, which he acknowledged he was.
Christ is not God as he had a physical father just like us.
Christ was a sinner as he had a physical father.

That last one is very important because if Christ had a physical father then he inherited the sin-nature the Bible says was passed down to all mankind by Adam, so he would have been a sinner and not able to pay our sin-debt. The Bible is clear that, he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21

I am not saying any of those things you suggest. Nor do I believe your implications are true.

What ever the physical facts of Jesus conception were, He was the Spiritual son of God. Jesus did not see sin in quite the same way you seem to. All his life to the very end... he consorted with, was friends with, forgave and healed sinners.

Last week our vicar In his bible class discussed amongst other things, the virgin birth. It was on a list of things that it was suggested were not certain nor essential to believe.

A Bible literalist like your self has other ideas on such things, and that is fine by me.

As I said elsewhere he has " the Christian right is neither" on his car. He probably brought it from his previous American parish.

 

[javajo]

I am not saying any of those things you suggest. Nor do I believe your implications are true.

They are not implications, they are the reality of not believing the Virgin Birth. Mary was pregnant before she was married and Joseph was going to put her away privily. So Jesus would be illegitimate and Mary a fornicator. Christ would be born with the sin-nature passed down to all of us by Adam and would not be the Son of God and the Lamb without spot or blemish who paid for our sins. It IS a big deal.

What ever the physical facts of Jesus conception were, He was the Spiritual son of God.

Show me one verse that says he was the "spiritual" Son of God. No, my friend he IS the Son of the Living God, THE Son of God.

Jesus did not see sin in quite the same way you seem to. All his life to the very end... he consorted with, was friends with, forgave and healed sinners.

Yet he did not condone sin but came to save those who were lost. The righteous don't need a physician, so he went to those who needed saving, the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Last week our vicar In his bible class discussed amongst other things, the virgin birth. It was on a list of things that it was suggested were not certain nor essential to believe.

It is very important,though. It destroys the whole chapter of Romans 5 and leaves Jesus as a sinner who could not pay for our sins. Here is some of Chapter 5: (note in red how many times it says that because of one man, Adam,condemnation came to all and by one man, Jesus justification)

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

A Bible literalist like your self has other ideas on such things, and that is fine by me.

God gave us 2 great languages to communicate his Word to us, its pretty clear Mary was a virgin and conceived by the Holy Ghost God's only begotten Son. The sign is that a virgin shall conceive, not just a young woman as some think. Young women get pregnant every day. That's not a sign. People like to deny the Virgin Birth by saying it just means young woman, but its really a young woman of marrying age, hence a virgin. They deny it because they won't admit Jesus is God.

As I said elsewhere he has " the Christian right is neither" on his car. He probably brought it from his previous American parish.

I don't consider myself as being on the right. I just believe the Bible says what it says.

 

[not nom]

The righteous don't need a physician, so he went to those who needed saving, the lost sheep of the House of Israel. [..] because of one man, Adam,condemnation came to all.

what gives? all, or some?

and what about job, who is called righteous and blameless?

The sign is that a virgin shall conceive, not just a young woman as some think. Young women get pregnant every day. That's not a sign.

something written in a book isn't a sign either! how can you possibly equate a description of something with the occurance of it?

 

[javajo]

what gives? all, or some?

All.

and what about job, who is called righteous and blameless?

All.

something written in a book isn't a sign either! how can you possibly equate a description of something with the occurance of it?

The prophet said it, then it happened.

 

[not nom]

you just said the righteous don't need saving. also, the bible does call job righteous, and when job says he is innocent, god confirms that what he spoke is true. so, uhm.

 

[javajo]

you just said the righteous don't need saving. also, the bible does call job righteous, and when job says he is innocent, god confirms that what he spoke is true. so, uhm.

Ok, I will explain. Jesus said the righteous don't need saving. He meant possibly 2 things (I don't have time to check the commentaries). One is that the scribes and pharisees and sadducees were self-righteous hypocrites and a waste of time. Two, there were people who, although they did sin (all sin), still under the Old Covenant who obeyed God and on the Day of Atonement were pardoned for their sin of that past year and would be considered righteous.

Job was very good, but he was a man with a sin-nature and he actually did sin in the story because he became angry with God and demanded an explanation. When God finished his lecture, Job said that he put his hand to his mouth. I believe when we stand before the supremely holy God, our sinfulness will be quite evident and every mouth will be stopped before him. The Bible says ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It says it in several passages. So, it takes going a little deeper to really understand some of these things. I hope that helped.

 

[not nom]

Job was very good, but he was a man with a sin-nature and he actually did sin in the story because he became angry with God and demanded an explanation. When God finished his lecture, Job said that he put his hand to his mouth.

uh.. so he sinned because he demanded an explanation. and that's it. if that's a sin, why does he end up getting blessed, while the others who rebuke him for demanding an explanation.. get rebuked?

and yes, he put his hand in his mouth..

1 Then Job replied to the LORD:
2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”

..however, he doesn't say "you're right, I sinned after all" (other than questioning god) -- his friends kinda said that. and god says to one of them "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has".

 

[javajo]

uh.. so he sinned because he demanded an explanation. and that's it. if that's a sin, why does he end up getting blessed, while the others who rebuke him for demanding an explanation.. get rebuked?

and yes, he put his hand in his mouth..



..however, he doesn't say "you're right, I sinned after all" (other than questioning god) -- his friends kinda said that. and god says to one of them "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has".

Job also kept saying that the thing he greatly feared had come upon him. To always greatly fear is a sin and Jesus told us not to even worry. To greatly fear one is not trusting completely in God and his goodness and suspecting that God will betray him at some point. He may also have greatly feared because, while he was a quite decent chap, he knew he had sinned, for all have sinned. I remember reading in Job that he promised himself he would not look upon a maid to lust after her, which to me indicates that he had lusted, since he had to make a promise not to. It must have been an area he had trouble in as he went to such effort to try not to. Anyway, while Job was pretty good, the Bible is very clear to say that we all have sinned and only Jesus was sinless.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Job also kept saying that the thing he greatly feared had come upon him. To always greatly fear is a sin and Jesus told us not to even worry. To greatly fear one is not trusting completely in God and his goodness and suspecting that God will betray him at some point. He may also have greatly feared because, while he was a quite decent chap, he knew he had sinned, for all have sinned. I remember reading in Job that he promised himself he would not look upon a maid to lust after her, which to me indicates that he had lusted, since he had to make a promise not to. It must have been an area he had trouble in as he went to such effort to try not to. Anyway, while Job was pretty good, the Bible is very clear to say that we all have sinned and only Jesus was sinless.

I have to ask this, since you mentioned it. We are not to fear, as you say. The Bible, in the first letter of John, I think, says that perfect loves drives out fear. And yet, we are to fear God. I can admit, psychologically, that fear and love cannot coexist. You cannot love something you fear. So how can one fear God and at the same time love him?

 

[javajo]

I have to ask this, since you mentioned it. We are not to fear, as you say. The Bible, in the first letter of John, I think, says that perfect loves drives out fear. And yet, we are to fear God. I can admit, psychologically, that fear and love cannot coexist. You cannot love something you fear. So how can one fear God and at the same time love him?

Fear God in the sense of awe and reverence and respect for Him. If we respect him we will try to live righteously as he is righteous. We are not to fear him like he will cast us out or do us harm, we are now his beloved children and although he corrects those he loves, and that can be painful, he never punishes them as Jesus has taken our punishment on the cross. Now, we may lose rewards and position and our life may be shorter if we do not do what is right. As the saying goes, some people go to Heaven and receive crowns, and some people, God crowns and takes them to heaven (although God does not hit them on the head, they just reap what they sow, which is why the carnal Corinthians were told that is why many of them were sick and some had even died). Those without the Saviour, I believe, have good reason to fear, as the wrath of God still abides upon them as they have not accepted the sacrifice of his one and only Son to pay their sin-debt.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Fear God in the sense of awe and reverence and respect for Him. If we respect him we will try to live righteously as he is righteous. We are not to fear him like he will cast us out or do us harm, we are now his beloved children and although he corrects those he loves, and that can be painful, he never punishes them as Jesus has taken our punishment on the cross. Now, we may lose rewards and position and our life may be shorter if we do not do what is right. As the saying goes, some people go to Heaven and receive crowns, and some people, God crowns and takes them to heaven (although God does not hit them on the head, they just reap what they sow, which is why the carnal Corinthians were told that is why many of them were sick and some had even died). Those without the Saviour, I believe, have good reason to fear, as the wrath of God still abides upon them as they have not accepted the sacrifice of his one and only Son to pay their sin-debt.

If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, since it's been years since I've studied Hebrew and Greek, but the words in the original languages actually meant fear, and not awe, as many like to claim.

 

[Rathus]

I propose that there is only one true Christian Church and many conterfit christian churches. Jesus started one church.

Hi jubilee131. Shall I assume you are a part of this "one true Christian church"? And if so, what is the name of it? Do you have a website address?