How many Christian Churches are there?

[Katzpur]

Here is an example. Church "A" says baptism is not necessary. Church "B" says baptism is necessary. One of those churches is not Christian. Yet in real life, baptism isn't considered an important issue so both churches are considered Christian.

As they should be! Both churches are Christian if the both teach salvation in Jesus Christ. One of them may be wrong with respect to baptism, but that certainly doesn't make it a non-Christian church.

I don't get it!

Boy, that's an understatement! A Christian is a disciple of Jesus Christ, or one of His followers. How did Jesus Christ tell his followers men would be able to recognize them? By the love they showed to one another. As far as I'm concerned, He would be disgusted today at the number of people running around saying, "You're not a real Christian!" to everybody who doesn't interpret every last point of doctrine the way they do.

 

[javajo]

As they should be! Both churches are Christian if the both teach salvation in Jesus Christ. One of them may be wrong with respect to baptism, but that certainly doesn't make it a non-Christian church.

I think I must agree since it says:

10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here we see Paul talking about leaders like him and Apollo and how they laid the foundation which is Christ. Others need to be careful how they build because they can lose reward and suffer loss in Heaven (not salvation). The main thing, people have to believe the simplicity that is the gospel of grace of Jesus Christ. They must believe they are sinners and he died to pay for their sins and they are saved. That is the foundation. Everything else is secondary. How they feel about baptism and other things in relationship to salvation is nothing if they don't get faith in Christ right. I personally lean strongly toward the position that if one is trusting in anything else in addition to Christ's finished work on the cross, like adding something they do to earn salvation, like participating in sacraments, good works, traditions, giving, going to church, keeping the ten commandments, loving their neighbor, religion, or anything else they do to add to what Christ did, then they are taking salvation as a debt owed instead of a gift given and may be in trouble. I think we should repent from dead works or our way of saving or helping save ourselves and believe Jesus is God, who died for our sins, and rose physically from the dead. But I believe salvation is from God and Christ gets all the glory for he paid for our sins and gave us his righteousness. Nothing we do can add to that, but actually takes away from that. Having said that, I understand there are others who disagree. My hope is that since we all have laid down the foundation of faith in Christ, that we are all ok even if we disagree. One day we may see whose doctrines were pure and whose are wood, hay and stubble. I just pray none of them are wrong enough that people are not saved. Eh, just some thots.

 

[Katzpur]

They must believe they are sinners and he died to pay for their sins and they are saved. That is the foundation. Everything else is secondary.

It was interesting to me that you put it that way. Here's the LDS viewpoint: "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."

I personally lean strongly toward the position that if one is trusting in anything else in addition to Christ's finished work on the cross, like adding something they do to earn salvation, like participating in sacraments, good works, traditions, giving, going to church, keeping the ten commandments, loving their neighbor, religion, or anything else they do to add to what Christ did, then they are taking salvation as a debt owed instead of a gift given and may be in trouble.

I disgree that God expects nothing of us besides faith, but I wouldn't say that our difference of opinion means that one of us is a Christian and that the other one isn't.

 

[ChristineES]

I am talking about small differences: Such as whether you dunk someone under water or if you sprinkle someone during baptism. I just don't think those kinds of differences will make any difference to God since it is symbolism anyway. What is important is loving God, loving your neighbors, loving your enemies, loving your brothers and sisters in Jesus, helping out in charities (as much as you can), and things of that nature.

 

[ChristineES]

Oh, and I believe that although there are different denominations, they are all combined as one in God's eyes. God is perfect and we are not.

 

[work in progress]

not nom and work in progress, this is a SAME FAITH debate. Just so ya know. (don't worry I'm not reporting it or anything, just a heads up)

And I would have ignored this thread after reading the OP and the first few comments, except that I didn't see any progressive Christians challenging the notion of Biblical inerrancy that has been used as the basis of the OP claim of "one true church."

Even most fundamentalists have adopted the House with many doors analogy offered up by C.S. Lewis, to avoid the kind of fratricide that happens when "one true church" is pushed in an aggressive manner.

 

[waitasec]

If one is correct and the others are a varying degree of correctness, how does one obey God's commandments if there is disagreement over what they are?

how many ways can one interpret luke 6:27 - 42?

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
39 He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

 

[work in progress]

I have not identified any churches as to true or false. I only pointed out that if two churches differ on any one point at least one of them is non-Christian.

But you set up three specific Bible verses as the litmus test for the demand that there be no differences in doctrine or interpretations of doctrines. Whoever sets himself up as the authority gets to decide which church is the true church and which ones are not. That could obviously lead to disaster if push comes to shove....as it has many times over the centuries.

Everyone here seems to disagree with that statement. If two or more churches differ on the same point someone isn't following Jesus' teachings. Here is an example. Church "A" says baptism is not necessary. Church "B" says baptism is necessary. One of those churches is not Christian. Yet in real life, baptism isn't considered an important issue so both churches are considered Christian.

The key here isn't which doctrine is correct, it is the disagreement that makes at least one of them non-Christian. The doctrinal issue is unimportant, the fact is at least one of them is not a Christian church and no one seems concerned about that and considers them Christian anyway.

I don't get it!

And this is where your notion of one church blows up! In the New Testament we have today, there is confusion regarding requirements for salvation. Consider that Matthew ch.5 doesn't mention baptism at all, but declares that keeping the Law and the Commandments is essential. The letter of James is cited by churches that declare that works of righteousness have to accompany faith. Other verses say all you need is faith....and some say you have to be baptised with water first. So, depending on what you're reading in the Bible, and how you choose to interpret and/or emphasize certain verses, it's not hard for me to understand why there are so many different denominations and churches today. Enforcing one-true-church would only come at the point of a gun!

 

[ChristineES]

How do we know if all the Christians denominations are wrong? For all we know, followers of Jesus should have all stayed Jewish. It was Paul who preached to Gentiles (although Jesus did speak to and teach a few Roman soldiers and their families- and healed some)

The thing is we don't know and have no way of knowing. We can't play God in these kinds of situations. We either all are Christians or none of us are- we have to keep an open mind, in my opinion.

 

[Quiddity]

How do we know if all the Christians denominations are wrong? For all we know, followers of Jesus should have all stayed Jewish. It was Paul who preached to Gentiles (although Jesus did speak to and teach a few Roman soldiers and their families- and healed some)

The thing is we don't know and have no way of knowing. We can't play God in these kinds of situations. We either all are Christians or none of us are- we have to keep an open mind, in my opinion.

I really don't think it's that easy. Take for example the issue of abortion. Would you call that a minor issue? There are other issues that obviously do matter. It's not a matter of someone trying to play God, but about knowing what to do. I'm sure you'd agree that the definition for being a "Christian" has to get cut off at some point. No matter what, you will be cutting off a minority of people from being "Christian". Yet, I wouldn't for a second think you were playing God. Know what I mean?

 

[javajo]

It was interesting to me that you put it that way. Here's the LDS viewpoint: "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."

That's great! That is what I meant that that is the foundation.

I disgree that God expects nothing of us besides faith, but I wouldn't say that our difference of opinion means that one of us is a Christian and that the other one isn't.

Me neither, at least not on that issue. Now if someone comes along and says they believe its scientifically impossible for Jesus to rise from the grave, but believe he lives on in his followers, I would have an issue. Of course I believe after we have been freely saved by grace through faith, God works in us and we should grow and do the other things. Like baptism, which I believe is the first step of obedience of a believer. The pattern in Eph. 2:8-10 and Titus 3:5-8 is we are saved to do good works that God made us for. The works follow as a result of salvation and also show we are justified to others.

 

[ChristineES]

I really don't think it's that easy. Take for example the issue of abortion. Would you call that a minor issue? There are other issues that obviously do matter. It's not a matter of someone trying to play God, but about knowing what to do. I'm sure you'd agree that the definition for being a "Christian" has to get cut off at some point. No matter what, you will be cutting off a minority of people from being "Christian". Yet, I wouldn't for a second think you were playing God. Know what I mean?

It isn't that easy, but it is a starting point. I think the majority of people of people who call themselves Christians usually are.

You're right, though, It isn't always true: Case in point is the Westboro Baptist Church- they spread hatred, something Jesus said was a big no-no- so I think we can safely assume about them. They call themselves Christians. As Katzpur pointed out "By their fruits you shall know them".

There are some who don't count Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventist, etc as true Christians. I am not going to say that they are not Christians, mostly because they do believe in Jesus and follow His commands. (JWs don't call themselves Christians, but that is another point altogether). I have been friends with a large amount of Mormons, and virtually all of them were very kind-hearted people, and they didn't judge me. So I would never tell any one of them they are not true Christians, that wouldn't be right and it wouldn't be moral (the way I see it), and it wouldn't be true.

Lastly, only God can judge our hearts.

 

[Katzpur]

It isn't that easy, but it is a starting point. I think the majority of people of people who call themselves Christians usually are.

I don't know why someone who didn't consider himself to be a Christian would call himself one. In my opinion, while some people don't act very Christian (the Westboro Baptists, for instance), their hypocrisy is between them and God. True, we shouldn't condone their acts of un-Christianlike behavior, but let them call themselves whatever they want to. No one who looks at what how they live their lives is going to think, "Oh, that's typical of a Christian."

 

[work in progress]

(JWs don't call themselves Christians, but that is another point altogether).

Actually, not only do they consider themselves to be Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses are another sect that believes they are the one true church.

 

[jubilee131]

But you set up three specific Bible verses as the litmus test for the demand that there be no differences in doctrine or interpretations of doctrines. Whoever sets himself up as the authority gets to decide which church is the true church and which ones are not. That could obviously lead to disaster if push comes to shove....as it has many times over the centuries.


And this is where your notion of one church blows up! In the New Testament we have today, there is confusion regarding requirements for salvation. Consider that Matthew ch.5 doesn't mention baptism at all, but declares that keeping the Law and the Commandments is essential. The letter of James is cited by churches that declare that works of righteousness have to accompany faith. Other verses say all you need is faith....and some say you have to be baptised with water first. So, depending on what you're reading in the Bible, and how you choose to interpret and/or emphasize certain verses, it's not hard for me to understand why there are so many different denominations and churches today. Enforcing one-true-church would only come at the point of a gun!

There are more than 3 verses that call for unity. Each person is his own authority. Each person has to decide for them self what is a true principle.

I tried to avoid examples because the discussion degenerated to the examples. I didn't pick a winning side in the baptism question for that very reason. The point is there is one gospel (faith). Each denomination has a different gospel. Even a blind man should see these differences make it impossible for every church to be following the teachings of Jesus which is the definition of Christian.

I think this policy of inclusion is going too far. I will wager that if I were to say (and this is just for arguments sake) that Jehovah's Witness are Christian Many would judge them not Christian and not tolerate that opinion. But people have no problem with 2 churches that differ on "minor" differences. I see no difference as "minor". Everything matters to God otherwise Galatians 1:6-8: would not be in the Bible.

What I don't get is how one can tolerate the mainstream Churches differences and reject the "Jehovah's Witness" type churches. What authority made that decision? There seems to be some major hypocrisy here.

 

[jubilee131]

For those of you that are not concerned with "minor" differences. Does it matter if you sprinkle or dip in baptism? Does it matter if works are necessary or not? Is faith alone all you need? Is the law still in effect or not? They all seem "minor" and insignificant and you may decide that all that maters is that you love God.

But the real question is does it matter to God? Your opinion really doesn't matter. If it didn't matter to God then why did He bother to include it in the Bible in the first place? God didn't have better things to do with His time? Look at the detail He goes into in describing the procedures for animal sacrifices and tell me things do not matter to God. I believe that all of those questions and many more make a difference to Him. Maybe it is just a question of obedience. Maybe just to see if we are paying attention. Maybe just to see if we will go to the trouble. Who knows?

If it matters to God then it should matter to us!

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I really don't think it's that easy. Take for example the issue of abortion. Would you call that a minor issue? There are other issues that obviously do matter. It's not a matter of someone trying to play God, but about knowing what to do. I'm sure you'd agree that the definition for being a "Christian" has to get cut off at some point. No matter what, you will be cutting off a minority of people from being "Christian". Yet, I wouldn't for a second think you were playing God. Know what I mean?

I really do not think there is a cut of point that we can apply.
After all, they may equally apply a different criteria that excludes us....The only Judge in these matters must be God.

Any exclusion we make based on our own dogma.... is playing God.
Christianity is an Inclusive religion.

That is why the ecumenical trend is so strong.

 

[MrProximus]

I think the answer is painfuly obvious. Of course there is no "one true" church! Men are flawed, men are sinners, men live in a fallen world. How could any of us possibly get it right? Most organized religions are so political. Everyone knows that politics are corrupt. If men are imperfect how could their church be anything more?

 

[idea]

On one hand I want to hold hands and sing "kumbaya" with everyone else... on the other hand, I realize that it was an organized religious group that killed Jesus... I believe my church to be the true church )why else would I go there?) I don't see everyone who goes to my church as being perfect or better than others, nor do I see others as being completely misled... there are some wolves in sheeps clothing - the best way to lay a trap is to hide it within stuff that is good, only takes a few drops of cyanide/mercury/arsenic to ruin a delicious batch of brownies, and sometimes that is what I see it as - all this good wonderful sheep stuff, but with a wolf in there too... wolves tend to ruin everything.

 

[ChristineES]

Actually, not only do they consider themselves to be Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses are another sect that believes they are the one true church.

I very nearly became a JW. I studied with them for quite awhile. I changed my mind at the last minute because of some doctrine I didn't agree with (1. That Jesus was Michael the archangel and 2.that Jesus wasn't raised in body, just spirit). I think they are a Christian sect, but they don't call themselves Christians (at least they didn't then), and I know they believe they are the only true Followers of Jesus).