How easy is it for Trinitarians to misread the scriptures?

[Soapy]

As much as possible, if possible. (Yes.)

No, you misunderstand. I do not believe the doctrine and I do not see, from the doctrinal explanations, that it is in harmony with the Bible.

So are you just interested in the methodology of doctrinal teachings? I see you ‘understanding’ sojourner’s training path.... of course, it’s no different to any ‘seminary’ training. What I detect is that you are being drawn away from the subject of the thread into trying to learn about how doctrine is taught.

What I want to bring back to your mind is that, if sojourner is committed to what he was ‘taught’ and is now expressing to you as the way to go, then have you noticed that he does not actually state anything about what he DOES believe... he just keeps stating that WE SHOULD READ AND BELIEVE the doctrine that he quite clearly cannot express or DARE NOT express?

After a while he has started DENYING the very doctrine he desires us to learn... and now he says he WASNT TAUGHT DOCTRINE...!!!!

So exactly what was his TRAINING about - the training methodology he expressed to you? I watched a tv drama recently in which a FAILED student weadeld their way into a job using the credentials of an ‘A Grade’ student. It didn’t go well for the failed student - s/he was quickly found out... I’m suggesting that sojourner’s evasive technique says a lot about what he really is qualified to express to us. He even claimed that I wasn’t making any sense (don’t quote that) yet as you see from my posts, I’m extremely comprehensive and consistent in my posts.

I don’t belong to any DOCTRINAL or CREEDAL belief because I’ve never found any of them express the truth of what the scriptures says. If anything, I liken most Christian belief systems to the ‘example churches’ as written about in Revelation wherein Jesus exposes wrongdoing in the ‘Seven Churches of Asia Minor’. Although each church (there were well more than seven but these were sufficiently clear in their methods) preached the gospels (as it was then) they each fell short of the ideal that Jesus expected - some way badder than others!!

At the end of the day, I’m happy to hear that you don’t believe in trinity but I still don’t understand what you DO believe. You asked me what I believe and I’m happy to express it. The ‘logic’ is sound and backed by scriptures... but I feel you are in danger of going the ‘Scientific’ route which seeks to deny God in the great creation and turns the scriptures into a mythology. I’ve often wondered how eminent theologians, linguists, scientists, and even geniuses of humanity, who read the scriptures either believe in trinity or don’t believe at all (Atheistic). My theory is that mankind’s uncovering of God’s work draws such men to believe it is their own discovery - which means that ‘the world is an random creation with no overarching purpose!’. We need to be careful that too much ‘TRAINING’ doesn’t lead us away from giving the glory to God, and HIS CHRIST, Jesus.

While it's kind of deep, here's a start:
Revelation 3:20,21:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I’m sorry but that means nothing to me as expressing what you believe about Jesus being pre-existent in heaven before the creation. All that you just presented is Jesus IN HEAVEN NOW and I agree with the verses but it has nothing to do with ‘Before Creation’ ... the question asked. Remember you asked me my opinion and I gave it to you. You disagreed but now won’t say what your opinion is!!

Please can you let me know in similar layout to mine what you believe about Jesus - as you say - pre-existent in heaven before creation (please show verses also to qualify your claims)

 

[YoursTrue]

So are you just interested in the methodology of doctrinal teachings? I see you ‘understanding’ sojourner’s training path.... of course, it’s no different to any ‘seminary’ training. What I detect is that you are being drawn away from the subject of the thread into trying to learn about how doctrine is taught.

What I want to bring back to your mind is that, if sojourner is committed to what he was ‘taught’ and is now expressing to you as the way to go, then have you noticed that he does not actually state anything about what he DOES believe... he just keeps stating that WE SHOULD READ AND BELIEVE the doctrine that he quite clearly cannot express or DARE NOT express?

After a while he has started DENYING the very doctrine he desires us to learn... and now he says he WASNT TAUGHT DOCTRINE...!!!!

So exactly what was his TRAINING about - the training methodology he expressed to you? I watched a tv drama recently in which a FAILED student weadeld their way into a job using the credentials of an ‘A Grade’ student. It didn’t go well for the failed student - s/he was quickly found out... I’m suggesting that sojourner’s evasive technique says a lot about what he really is qualified to express to us. He even claimed that I wasn’t making any sense (don’t quote that) yet as you see from my posts, I’m extremely comprehensive and consistent in my posts.

I don’t belong to any DOCTRINAL or CREEDAL belief because I’ve never found any of them express the truth of what the scriptures says. If anything, I liken most Christian belief systems to the ‘example churches’ as written about in Revelation wherein Jesus exposes wrongdoing in the ‘Seven Churches of Asia Minor’. Although each church (there were well more than seven but these were sufficiently clear in their methods) preached the gospels (as it was then) they each fell short of the ideal that Jesus expected - some way badder than others!!

At the end of the day, I’m happy to hear that you don’t believe in trinity but I still don’t understand what you DO believe. You asked me what I believe and I’m happy to express it. The ‘logic’ is sound and backed by scriptures... but I feel you are in danger of going the ‘Scientific’ route which seeks to deny God in the great creation and turns the scriptures into a mythology. I’ve often wondered how eminent theologians, linguists, scientists, and even geniuses of humanity, who read the scriptures either believe in trinity or don’t believe at all (Atheistic). My theory is that mankind’s uncovering of God’s work draws such men to believe it is their own discovery - which means that ‘the world is an random creation with no overarching purpose!’. We need to be careful that too much ‘TRAINING’ doesn’t lead us away from giving the glory to God, and HIS CHRIST, Jesus.
I’m sorry but that means nothing to me as expressing what you believe about Jesus being pre-existent in heaven before the creation. All that you just presented is Jesus IN HEAVEN NOW and I agree with the verses but it has nothing to do with ‘Before Creation’ ... the question asked. Remember you asked me my opinion and I gave it to you. You disagreed but now won’t say what your opinion is!!

Please can you let me know in similar layout to mine what you believe about Jesus - as you say - pre-existent in heaven before creation (please show verses also to qualify your claims)

I already showed you what Jesus said in the gospel of John but you don't agree he had been with the Father in heaven.
Berean Study Bible John 17:5 -
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed."

 

[Soapy]

I already showed you what Jesus said in the gospel of John but you don't agree he had been with the Father in heaven.
Berean Study Bible John 17:5 -
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed."

YoursTrue, there is no qualification in that verse - no evidence of what the verse is DESIGNED to show!!! Yes, DESIGNED by the trinitarian translators. Just think, the bible collators were anxious to show that there was a trinity in scriptures. When they found NOTHING in the original authentic scripts, they had to do something otherwise they would lose their audience... what better to do but direct the translators to modify verses where they could to show a ‘loose trinity’. It’s ‘loose’ because nothing in any verse is absolute on a three-person Godhead. Even the word, ‘Godhead’ they use is a mistranslation because when you think about it, how is Jesus ‘FILLED with the Godhead’ IF JESUS IS GOD ALREADY... and if he WASNT GOD ALREADY then what was Jesus ... You see, it causes an anomaly... it doesn’t work.

Now, I know you don’t believe in the trinity but I just wanted to show how Trinitarians mistranslated parts of the bible to try to delude its audience. But if you say that Jesus was filled with the Godhead... oh, no, ... the true word is ‘FULLNESS’ ... the Fullness of God!! ... and you know that this is AT THE BAPTISM OF JESUS when Jesus was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT... which is ‘the fullness’ spoken of:

1. “The Father was pleased that the son should be filled with the fullness”
2. “This is my son in whom I am well pleased!”
3. “Behold my servant whom I have chosen. I will put my spirit on him...”
4. “This day I have BECOME TO HIM, a Father, and he has BECOME to me, a Son!!”

No. 4 is an ADOPTION STATEMENT... do you agree!!?

Scriptures states that God gave no place of honour to any Angel...but unto the son he says:

• “You are my Son; today I have become your Father'? Or again, 'I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

I am asking how you reconcile these verses where scriptures gives glory to Jesus as the Son of God AS or AFTER he is ANOINTED (became ‘Christ’ / Sanctified / Set Apart for kingship and/or Priesthood) as Son of God - if he was Son of God (or an equivalent) in heaven before creation?

Also, WHEN did Jesus ‘lose’ his glory ‘NEXT TO GOD‘ or ‘WITH GOD’ that he is now asking BACK?

Do you notice that Jesus said only that he was “Going TO the Father”.. he never said he was ‘Going BACK to the Father’?

And please understand what I said to you about mistranslations - Jesus, in speaking to Nicodemus says (according to the Typical Trinitarian Translation):

• “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.” (John 3:13)

Now, please tell me that you recognise that text as nonsense??

Jesus, remember, is speaking to one of the chief priests... Jesus has not yet been crucified and gone up to heaven... The text CLAIMS that the Son of God has ‘Come from Heaven’ AND has ‘GONE UP TO HEAVEN’...!!!

No! Jesus is telling Nicodemus that:

• “No one goes up to heaven except that they FIRST GO DOWN TO THE GRAVE”

Remember the parable of the seeds... the seed must first ‘die’ (metaphorically speaking) in the ground before it can germinate (become a new Spirit) as a plant.

And even Jesus Christ himself, FIRST DIED before he was resurrected and TAKEN UP TO HEAVEN.

If you believe Jesus was pre-existent, then I’m amazed you didn’t claim this as one of your “proofs” that Jesus was first in heaven and then came down to earth... but, of course, I guess you did read it as an INVALID ATTEMPT at a Trinity Twist!!

Also, in Revelation, Jesus states that:

• “I am he who Was DEAD, but is NOW ALIVE FOREVERMORE”

Jesus says that he is NOW ALIVE eternally after being DEAD. An EXISTING Spirit is ETERNALLY ALIVE until it is destroyed. And only God, who creates Spirits - God is the “Father of Spirits” (Hebrews 12:9) - can destroy them.

 

[YoursTrue]

YoursTrue, there is no qualification in that verse - no evidence of what the verse is DESIGNED to show!!! Yes, DESIGNED by the trinitarian translators. Just think, the bible collators were anxious to show that there was a trinity in scriptures. When they found NOTHING in the original authentic scripts, they had to do something otherwise they would lose their audience... what better to do but direct the translators to modify verses where they could to show a ‘loose trinity’. It’s ‘loose’ because nothing in any verse is absolute on a three-person Godhead. Even the word, ‘Godhead’ they use is a mistranslation because when you think about it, how is Jesus ‘FILLED with the Godhead’ IF JESUS IS GOD ALREADY... and if he WASNT GOD ALREADY then what was Jesus ... You see, it causes an anomaly... it doesn’t work.

Now, I know you don’t believe in the trinity but I just wanted to show how Trinitarians mistranslated parts of the bible to try to delude its audience. But if you say that Jesus was filled with the Godhead... oh, no, ... the true word is ‘FULLNESS’ ... the Fullness of God!! ... and you know that this is AT THE BAPTISM OF JESUS when Jesus was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT... which is ‘the fullness’ spoken of:

1. “The Father was pleased that the son should be filled with the fullness”
2. “This is my son in whom I am well pleased!”
3. “Behold my servant whom I have chosen. I will put my spirit on him...”
4. “This day I have BECOME TO HIM, a Father, and he has BECOME to me, a Son!!”

No. 4 is an ADOPTION STATEMENT... do you agree!!?

Scriptures states that God gave no place of honour to any Angel...but unto the son he says:

• “You are my Son; today I have become your Father'? Or again, 'I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

I am asking how you reconcile these verses where scriptures gives glory to Jesus as the Son of God AS or AFTER he is ANOINTED (became ‘Christ’ / Sanctified / Set Apart for kingship and/or Priesthood) as Son of God - if he was Son of God (or an equivalent) in heaven before creation?

Also, WHEN did Jesus ‘lose’ his glory ‘NEXT TO GOD‘ or ‘WITH GOD’ that he is now asking BACK?

Do you notice that Jesus said only that he was “Going TO the Father”.. he never said he was ‘Going BACK to the Father’?

And please understand what I said to you about mistranslations - Jesus, in speaking to Nicodemus says (according to the Typical Trinitarian Translation):

• “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.” (John 3:13)

Now, please tell me that you recognise that text as nonsense??

Jesus, remember, is speaking to one of the chief priests... Jesus has not yet been crucified and gone up to heaven... The text CLAIMS that the Son of God has ‘Come from Heaven’ AND has ‘GONE UP TO HEAVEN’...!!!

No! Jesus is telling Nicodemus that:

• “No one goes up to heaven except that they FIRST GO DOWN TO THE GRAVE”

Remember the parable of the seeds... the seed must first ‘die’ (metaphorically speaking) in the ground before it can germinate (become a new Spirit) as a plant.

And even Jesus Christ himself, FIRST DIED before he was resurrected and TAKEN UP TO HEAVEN.

If you believe Jesus was pre-existent, then I’m amazed you didn’t claim this as one of your “proofs” that Jesus was first in heaven and then came down to earth... but, of course, I guess you did read it as an INVALID ATTEMPT at a Trinity Twist!!

Also, in Revelation, Jesus states that:

• “I am he who Was DEAD, but is NOW ALIVE FOREVERMORE”

Jesus says that he is NOW ALIVE eternally after being DEAD. An EXISTING Spirit is ETERNALLY ALIVE until it is destroyed. And only God, who creates Spirits - God is the “Father of Spirits” (Hebrews 12:9) - can destroy them.

When Jesus was in heaven (as the Word with God), he was also in an important position. But he was not a human being in heaven. He was a spirit. Then he LEFT HEAVEN and came down to earth by means of Mary's womb, taking on the personna of a human being, no longer a spirit person. At least the Trinity doctrine says he was "fully man," but apparently Trinitarians believe he was fully God at the same time. I do not. When he was a man, born of Mary, on the earth, he was not "fully God" equal to the other two supposed persons, combining to make up one being called God.

 

[Soapy]

When Jesus was in heaven (as the Word with God), he was also in an important position.

According to your belief he was in an important position in heaven as the word of God...?

Can I ask you to expand on this ideology by showing where in scriptures this is even insinuated as I have never read anything that shows anything like it in the Christian scriptures.

Also, ‘Word of God’ is not a person... Don’t you see that you are building an ideology similar to trinity.

The word of God is the ‘word’ God spoke ... basically, all things God SAID.

‘In the beginning God ...’ spoke a word to create the world:

• “Let there be light!”

That ‘word’ was AN ALMIGHTY WORD... this is what is meant by:

• ‘In the beginning was the word [that God spoke], and the word was [ALMIGHTY]’

God also spoke the word to His people via His prophets by He also spoke the word that salvation for mankind would come through the seed of a woman (not the seed of a Male/man!!) and that He would send a saviour IN TIME TO COME:

• ‘Behold my SERVANT whom I have chosen... I will put my spirit in him and he will do all I desire and bring justice to the nations’
• ‘In the past God SPOKE [his word] to via his prophets ... but in these last days he has SPOKEN [his word] through His Son whom he has appointed HEIR to all things...’ (Hebrews 1:2)

So, YoursTrue, God APPOINTED Jesus (clearly AFTER was raised from the dead!) so the question to you is still:

• What is the glory jesus was supposed to have had with GOD (with his Father) BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, if he was only APPOINTED to the Glory AFTER he was raised from the dead?

YoursTrue, I’m not detecting any evidence from what you appear to be saying. You just said that Jesus was in and important position’ without qualification... and even if that were true, God called him, ‘My SERVANT’.

Please add some detail information along with scriptures to backup your claim... thanks.

But he was not a human being in heaven.

Sorry but this is a pointless nonsense statement seeing that no one at anytime or in any belief system EVER claimed that a human Being was in [the spirit realm]

He was a spirit.

Can you show a Christian scripture verse that states this? Seriously, you need to show some evidence of your claim otherwise it shows you are just not presenting authentic, genuine, realistic, or credible ideology.

Then he LEFT HEAVEN and came down to earth by means of Mary's womb, taking on the personna of a human being, no longer a spirit person. At least the Trinity doctrine says he was "fully man," but apparently Trinitarians believe he was fully God at the same time. I do not. When he was a man, born of Mary, on the earth, he was not "fully God" equal to the other two supposed persons, combining to make up one being called God.

’Not fully God’ implies some kind of ‘Demi-God’ - which is pure mythology... a God is a RULER... there is no such thing as a ‘Half-Ruler’... and a God is SPIRIT (contextually) so you are in fact attempting to express a BINITY ‘God’ (binity of Gods!... or 1.5 Gods) which is complete nonsense which is just as ridiculous a concept as it would be in any kind of possible reality.

YoursTrue, you say you are not JW but I do find your ideology is running along the lines of such: Jesus was a spirit (Angel) in heaven and was SENT ... of his own accord (???) by God to become man and die for mankind... YET scriptures clearly says:

• ‘To which of the angels did God ever say....!’

 

[YoursTrue]

According to your belief he was in an important position in heaven as the word of God...?

Can I ask you to expand on this ideology by showing where in scriptures this is even insinuated as I have never read anything that shows anything like it in the Christian scriptures.

Also, ‘Word of God’ is not a person... Don’t you see that you are building an ideology similar to trinity.

The word of God is the ‘word’ God spoke ... basically, all things God SAID.

‘In the beginning God ...’ spoke a word to create the world:

• “Let there be light!”

That ‘word’ was AN ALMIGHTY WORD... this is what is meant by:

• ‘In the beginning was the word [that God spoke], and the word was [ALMIGHTY]’

God also spoke the word to His people via His prophets by He also spoke the word that salvation for mankind would come through the seed of a woman (not the seed of a Male/man!!) and that He would send a saviour IN TIME TO COME:

• ‘Behold my SERVANT whom I have chosen... I will put my spirit in him and he will do all I desire and bring justice to the nations’
• ‘In the past God SPOKE [his word] to via his prophets ... but in these last days he has SPOKEN [his word] through His Son whom he has appointed HEIR to all things...’ (Hebrews 1:2)

So, YoursTrue, God APPOINTED Jesus (clearly AFTER was raised from the dead!) so the question to you is still:

• What is the glory jesus was supposed to have had with GOD (with his Father) BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, if he was only APPOINTED to the Glory AFTER he was raised from the dead?

YoursTrue, I’m not detecting any evidence from what you appear to be saying. You just said that Jesus was in and important position’ without qualification... and even if that were true, God called him, ‘My SERVANT’.

Please add some detail information along with scriptures to backup your claim... thanks.
Sorry but this is a pointless nonsense statement seeing that no one at anytime or in any belief system EVER claimed that a human Being was in [the spirit realm] Can you show a Christian scripture verse that states this? Seriously, you need to show some evidence of your claim otherwise it shows you are just not presenting authentic, genuine, realistic, or credible ideology. ’Not fully God’ implies some kind of ‘Demi-God’ - which is pure mythology... a God is a RULER... there is no such thing as a ‘Half-Ruler’... and a God is SPIRIT (contextually) so you are in fact attempting to express a BINITY ‘God’ (binity of Gods!... or 1.5 Gods) which is complete nonsense which is just as ridiculous a concept as it would be in any kind of possible reality.

YoursTrue, you say you are not JW but I do find your ideology is running along the lines of such: Jesus was a spirit (Angel) in heaven and was SENT ... of his own accord (???) by God to become man and die for mankind... YET scriptures clearly says:

• ‘To which of the angels did God ever say....!’

May I ask where you think I said I am not a Jehovah's Witness? God has spoken through angels, has he not? Do you remember when Manoah and his wife said they saw God, when they really saw an angel? What do you think?
Judges 13 - When the flame went up from the altar to the sky, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell facedown to the ground. 21And when the Angel of the LORD did not appear again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the Angel of the LORD. 22“We are going to die,” he said to his wife, “for we have seen God!

 

[YoursTrue]

According to your belief he was in an important position in heaven as the word of God...?

Can I ask you to expand on this ideology by showing where in scriptures this is even insinuated as I have never read anything that shows anything like it in the Christian scriptures.

Also, ‘Word of God’ is not a person... Don’t you see that you are building an ideology similar to trinity.

The word of God is the ‘word’ God spoke ... basically, all things God SAID.

‘In the beginning God ...’ spoke a word to create the world:

• “Let there be light!”

That ‘word’ was AN ALMIGHTY WORD... this is what is meant by:

• ‘In the beginning was the word [that God spoke], and the word was [ALMIGHTY]’

God also spoke the word to His people via His prophets by He also spoke the word that salvation for mankind would come through the seed of a woman (not the seed of a Male/man!!) and that He would send a saviour IN TIME TO COME:

• ‘Behold my SERVANT whom I have chosen... I will put my spirit in him and he will do all I desire and bring justice to the nations’
• ‘In the past God SPOKE [his word] to via his prophets ... but in these last days he has SPOKEN [his word] through His Son whom he has appointed HEIR to all things...’ (Hebrews 1:2)

So, YoursTrue, God APPOINTED Jesus (clearly AFTER was raised from the dead!) so the question to you is still:

• What is the glory jesus was supposed to have had with GOD (with his Father) BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, if he was only APPOINTED to the Glory AFTER he was raised from the dead?

YoursTrue, I’m not detecting any evidence from what you appear to be saying. You just said that Jesus was in and important position’ without qualification... and even if that were true, God called him, ‘My SERVANT’.

Please add some detail information along with scriptures to backup your claim... thanks.
Sorry but this is a pointless nonsense statement seeing that no one at anytime or in any belief system EVER claimed that a human Being was in [the spirit realm] Can you show a Christian scripture verse that states this? Seriously, you need to show some evidence of your claim otherwise it shows you are just not presenting authentic, genuine, realistic, or credible ideology. ’Not fully God’ implies some kind of ‘Demi-God’ - which is pure mythology... a God is a RULER... there is no such thing as a ‘Half-Ruler’... and a God is SPIRIT (contextually) so you are in fact attempting to express a BINITY ‘God’ (binity of Gods!... or 1.5 Gods) which is complete nonsense which is just as ridiculous a concept as it would be in any kind of possible reality.

YoursTrue, you say you are not JW but I do find your ideology is running along the lines of such: Jesus was a spirit (Angel) in heaven and was SENT ... of his own accord (???) by God to become man and die for mankind... YET scriptures clearly says:

• ‘To which of the angels did God ever say....!’

To be flawless as God's servant, in and out of the flesh, is certainly wonderful, isn't it? Jesus, as God's Son who came from heaven to live as a man on earth, was flawless. Adam was not flawless after his sin, passing on sin and death to all (except Jesus). Before Jesus was on the earth, he was a spirit person in heaven, next to God his Father.
Jesus explained more about God at John 4:24, there are at least two versions of the statement, but I'd like to know what you think it means about spirit, or "a" spirit. Because Jesus said God is a spirit. Or spirit. How do you view this? What does spirit mean to you in describing God as Jesus described it. Even in the NAS, Jesus spoke of worshipping HIM. Not his spirit. But God referring to HIM. Not himself. So we all have spirit within us. But Jesus was not referring to that kind of spirit. Who do you think Jesus was referring to when he said God is a Spirit?

King James 2000 Bible
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

New American Standard 1977
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[Soapy]

To be flawless as God's servant, in and out of the flesh, is certainly wonderful, isn't it? Jesus, as God's Son who came from heaven to live as a man on earth, was flawless. Adam was not flawless after his sin, passing on sin and death to all (except Jesus). Before Jesus was on the earth, he was a spirit person in heaven, next to God his Father.
Jesus explained more about God at John 4:24, there are at least two versions of the statement, but I'd like to know what you think it means about spirit, or "a" spirit. Because Jesus said God is a spirit. Or spirit. How do you view this? What does spirit mean to you in describing God as Jesus described it. Even in the NAS, Jesus spoke of worshipping HIM. Not his spirit. But God referring to HIM. Not himself. So we all have spirit within us. But Jesus was not referring to that kind of spirit. Who do you think Jesus was referring to when he said God is a Spirit?

King James 2000 Bible
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

New American Standard 1977
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

YoursTrue, I feel that you are attempting to evade the question of how you justify your claim that

• Jesus was in Heaven prior to the creation of the world

and:

• What was the glory Jesus had with his Father - how did he lose it, why, and how was he shown to have got it back

Please show valid credible verses and text from the Christian scriptures that claim the above.

((P.s. I really don’t need to be told that God is Spirit... it’s plainly written in the scriptures and common belief tells us that holy angels are also spirits in the spirit realm with God.))