How does one get into the New Testament church?

[shava]

It obvious you don't understand what Paul was referring to when he used his "one body" terminology, nor are you willing to do some homework on the early church and follow what is called "apostolic succession" that we know the early church relied on. As long as you do not understand that, and you certainly don't, then maybe you can come back later when you actually realize what Paul was saying and why this is crucial in understanding the evolution of the church. Until you do that, all you will continue to do is to wallow in the brainwashing you've been subject to.

So, let me know when you do the homework, OK, because you just haven't been willing to do so thus far. I post links, and you virtually ignore them, so why should I waste my time any more.

You took the words right out of my mouth that I was going to say to you. But for your soul's sake I will try and help you. The one body, which the body is called the church means those who are saved. Now I already showed you Romans 16:16, which is the name of the church, and I showed you how one gets into the church when they obey Acts 2:38, which is being immersed to wash away your sins, right?

Earlier I showed you the verse that tells you not to miss going to worship, Hebrews 10:25. Now tell me, what church since we know that the Catholic church began in 325 and they do not follow the bible as I proved to you, unless you're willing to show me in the bible the doctrine they believe in is in the bible, which I know you can't, because it's not in there. You never give proof as I do, you only give baseless assertions for your answer, and you seem oblivious on how that makes you look to a Christian.

Show me in the bible the Catholic church, and remember the only one you gave me was the Way, which I proved was the church of Christ by the doctrine that it goes by, so prove your point with scripture, not your assertions on what is. I will present this to the students at Freed Hardeman to view this today when I see them, and I'll tell you there opinion on your comments.

 

[shava]

This is one of the many reasons I left the church of Christ denomination: too many legalists and too many rules. The biggest reason was that the local church I went to, endorsed both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Wow. So yeah, I've heard all these arguments and have found flaws in all of them. This is how they are taught to evangelize and they don't care if they break the rules to do it. It's deceptive and that's really sad. The Gospel should never be cloaked in deception.

Here's the thing, churches of Christ are autonomous, meaning there there is no synod. So, there's no body certifying which church is legit or not. Ergo, any church can claim to be a church of Christ and in fact, most of them do. In reality, every Christian church is by default a church of Christ. Of course, that doesn't stop many church of Christers to claim a monopoly on the truth and salvation. They are trying to keep everybody else out of heaven, which reminds me of a certain discourse between Jesus and the legalists of his day...

Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. -NIV

See how these Pharisees were doing the very same thing and Jesus condemned them for it? You don't get to pick and choose who gets into heaven. That's Jesus' job, and he says you better be all about the love, or you're not getting in. You're not a disciple if you don't love. No, being self righteous doesn't cut it. Saying the right things isn't enough. It doesn't even matter if you aren't a member of any church. Just love. Put the needs of others over your own needs. Minister to the sick, the widows and the elderly. Let your example, not your arguments win people over to Christianity.

You say that the churches of Christ has no synod, well my friend we do, and it's Jesus Christ, that being his pattern found for us to follow in the New Testament. If a church doesn't worship as the church of the first century then there not a church of Christ, whether they think they are not is of no matter, because it's what one must go by in order to be worshipping in spirit and in truth.

No, we're not trying to keep everybody out, on the contrary, we're trying to get everybody in, but man because of there unwillingness to study, or for other reasons choose not to believe because of their own desires. This isn't a monopoly game, it's the absolute most serious of all there is, your eternal destiny is at risk.

Yes it does matter if one is in the body, the right church, how else could one be saved, they can't, how else could one worship in spirit and in truth, they can't if there not following the New testament pattern that Jesus and the Apostles gave us to follow.

 

[metis]

This is one of the many reasons I left the church of Christ denomination: too many legalists and too many rules. The biggest reason was that the local church I went to, endorsed both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Wow. So yeah, I've heard all these arguments and have found flaws in all of them. This is how they are taught to evangelize and they don't care if they break the rules to do it. It's deceptive and that's really sad. The Gospel should never be cloaked in deception.

Here's the thing, churches of Christ are autonomous, meaning there there is no synod. So, there's no body certifying which church is legit or not. Ergo, any church can claim to be a church of Christ and in fact, most of them do. In reality, every Christian church is by default a church of Christ. Of course, that doesn't stop many church of Christers to claim a monopoly on the truth and salvation. They are trying to keep everybody else out of heaven, which reminds me of a certain discourse between Jesus and the legalists of his day...

Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. -NIV

See how these Pharisees were doing the very same thing and Jesus condemned them for it? You don't get to pick and choose who gets into heaven. That's Jesus' job, and he says you better be all about the love, or you're not getting in. You're not a disciple if you don't love. No, being self righteous doesn't cut it. Saying the right things isn't enough. It doesn't even matter if you aren't a member of any church. Just love. Put the needs of others over your own needs. Minister to the sick, the widows and the elderly. Let your example, not your arguments win people over to Christianity.

I ran across much the same as I was attending a fundamentalist Protestant church. The irony is that they kept teaching us that the RCC was very "legalistic", but the reality is that their church was far worse. And their judgmentalism was truly pathetic, as well as their anti-science and anti-history positions. I left that church in my mid-20's and never looked back.

BTW, our youngest daughter went on the "Joy Bus" to a local CoC church with a friend of hers once a week for about a year, and after attending one day she came home in tears and said that they taught her that she was never baptized, and when she responded that she was they told her it wasn't valid. She was about 10 at the time, and my wife and I were upset that they would dare be so rude as to hit a 10 year old with that message. A spokeswoman from the church paid us a visit, and we told her how terribly indecent that it was to say these kind of things to a 10 year old, and all she did was to defend their actions. We were nice to her, but we made it clear that this was both unacceptable and unethical in our book, and our daughter never went back.

 

[metis]

Show me in the bible the Catholic church, and remember the only one you gave me was the Way, which I proved was the church of Christ by the doctrine that it goes by, so prove your point with scripture, not your assertions on what is. I will present this to the students at Freed Hardeman to view this today when I see them, and I'll tell you there opinion on your comments.

"Freed Hardeman" University, which shava cites above, is indeed affiliated with the Church of Christ denomination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freed–Hardeman_University. That denomination started in 1906 but claims that somehow it goes back to the church of the apostles, which is quite a bizarre claim since there simply is not one shred of evidence that shows any continuum that goes anywhere near that far back.

Here's a link to info. on the CoC so one can see for themselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_of_Christ

 

[Scuba Pete]

Yes it does matter if one is in the body, the right church, how else could one be saved

News Flash: Being in the 'right' church doesn't save anyone! After all, was the church crucified for me? No. Go read I Cor 1

on the contrary, we're trying to get everybody in,

This is patently false... you're trying to get them into -YOUR- church since you have equated -YOUR- church with salvation. That's what I'm reading here and it's not supported by scriptures.

they told her it wasn't valid.

This is typical. At the onset of the church of Christ they were often called "anabaptists" (re-baptizers) because they only accepted their baptism as valid. There's no scriptural basis for this except one lone scripture about a family that was baptized into John being re-baptized into Jesus.

It's "interesting" that shava previously had claimed that he didn't belong to any denomination,

This is integral to cofC doctrine. Since they are the "one true church", everyone else is a denomination, or better yet, an abomination. This gives rise to their remnant doctrine which has no basis in either fact or scripture. They have convinced themselves that there has always been a remnant of believers, the FFOF (Faithful Few on Fire), that stretches from the day of Pentecost to the present day. It should be noted that while the OT makes many references to the remnant, the NT makes no such mention. It should also be noted that they can only trace themselves back to the restoration movement by Stone and Campbell started in the late 18th century.

If you read in Shava's last response, they feel they have "restored" the NT church and follow Jesus by patterning their church off of the example found in churches mentioned in the NT. This has had some unintended consequences. At one time, there was a real schism caused by their own legalism. Churches actually dis-fellowshipped one another over whether one had a kitchen or not, whether they used wine or grape juice and if they allowed instrumental music or not. If it wasn't a part of the New Testament church, then they feel it should not be a part of the current church. It doesn't matter that the New Testament church didn't read from the New Testament: they do now. It doesn't matter that the New Testament church didn't own buildings much less use electronics, AC, cars, busses and the like. But just try to play a piano or guitar and you are anathema! If it's not convenient, they don't follow the example set by the New Testament church but if you believe differently about any of their accepted "truths" then you're dis-fellowshipped.

What's really humorous to me is the deification of Sunday. It appears that the New Testament churches, which were largely Jewish, met on Sunday since all the synagogues were used on Saturdays. Rather than see this as a departure from all Jewish laws and customs, they turn it into it's own law. Throughout the whole New Testament, we're introduced to the concept that we have only one law, the law of love and that we should not let ourselves be encumbered with additional laws. In a horrible irony, the church of Christ has turned the NT into a set of laws more complicated than the US tax code. There are lots of conflicts and there are a huge number of extrapolations where an example gets made into a law where it was never meant to be. For an example, look at the cofC stance on alcohol. For the most part, it's really, really frowned upon. It doesn't matter that Jesus' first recorded miracle was turning water into wine. It doesn't matter that Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine to calm himself down. They take a scripture like 1 Timothy 3:8 and re-engineer it to mean something it was never meant to be.

That was probably more about the cofC than most of you want to know. I was a part of them until the birth of the ICOC (International Churches of Christ) which was also known as the Boston movement and which ultimately became a cult. They took the cofC ideology to it's logical end and it was ugly. They all claim to be listening to only Jesus, but in the end they are making it up to suit themselves. Nothing wrong with that, if you're willing to suspend reality and don't mind living under a rather oppressive number of man-made rules. Personally, I had to stop drinking their Koolaid and have returned to the principles of Love.

 

[shava]

I ran across much the same as I was attending a fundamentalist Protestant church. The irony is that they kept teaching us that the RCC was very "legalistic", but the reality is that their church was far worse. And their judgmentalism was truly pathetic, as well as their anti-science and anti-history positions. I left that church in my mid-20's and never looked back.

BTW, our youngest daughter went on the "Joy Bus" to a local CoC church with a friend of hers once a week for about a year, and after attending one day she came home in tears and said that they taught her that she was never baptized, and when she responded that she was they told her it wasn't valid. She was about 10 at the time, and my wife and I were upset that they would dare be so rude as to hit a 10 year old with that message. A spokeswoman from the church paid us a visit, and we told her how terribly indecent that it was to say these kind of things to a 10 year old, and all she did was to defend their actions. We were nice to her, but we made it clear that this was both unacceptable and unethical in our book, and our daughter never went back.

Baptism is for adults, let a child be a child, and one must be baptized only in the true church, that being the church of Christ. I wish you and your wife would have gone with her and studied and you would see that God desires a child to be a child, as a child hasn't a need to be baptized.

Look at it this way, if your child never knew of God at that age, do you honestly think she would've gone to hell, absolutely not, so you see, there is no need for a child to be baptized, as it's for people who can look back at their life and see that there life needs to change because of the way one has been living and the need for God to help them learn how to live a life pleasing to God, that's the purpose of baptism my dear friend.

Matthew 19:14, King James Bible
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[shava]

News Flash: Being in the 'right' church doesn't save anyone! After all, was the church crucified for me? No. Go read I Cor 1

This is patently false... you're trying to get them into -YOUR- church since you have equated -YOUR- church with salvation. That's what I'm reading here and it's not supported by scriptures.

This is typical. At the onset of the church of Christ they were often called "anabaptists" (re-baptizers) because they only accepted their baptism as valid. There's no scriptural basis for this except one lone scripture about a family that was baptized into John being re-baptized into Jesus.

This is integral to cofC doctrine. Since they are the "one true church", everyone else is a denomination, or better yet, an abomination. This gives rise to their remnant doctrine which has no basis in either fact or scripture. They have convinced themselves that there has always been a remnant of believers, the FFOF (Faithful Few on Fire), that stretches from the day of Pentecost to the present day. It should be noted that while the OT makes many references to the remnant, the NT makes no such mention. It should also be noted that they can only trace themselves back to the restoration movement by Stone and Campbell started in the late 18th century.

If you read in Shava's last response, they feel they have "restored" the NT church and follow Jesus by patterning their church off of the example found in churches mentioned in the NT. This has had some unintended consequences. At one time, there was a real schism caused by their own legalism. Churches actually dis-fellowshipped one another over whether one had a kitchen or not, whether they used wine or grape juice and if they allowed instrumental music or not. If it wasn't a part of the New Testament church, then they feel it should not be a part of the current church. It doesn't matter that the New Testament church didn't read from the New Testament: they do now. It doesn't matter that the New Testament church didn't own buildings much less use electronics, AC, cars, busses and the like. But just try to play a piano or guitar and you are anathema! If it's not convenient, they don't follow the example set by the New Testament church but if you believe differently about any of their accepted "truths" then you're dis-fellowshipped.

What's really humorous to me is the deification of Sunday. It appears that the New Testament churches, which were largely Jewish, met on Sunday since all the synagogues were used on Saturdays. Rather than see this as a departure from all Jewish laws and customs, they turn it into it's own law. Throughout the whole New Testament, we're introduced to the concept that we have only one law, the law of love and that we should not let ourselves be encumbered with additional laws. In a horrible irony, the church of Christ has turned the NT into a set of laws more complicated than the US tax code. There are lots of conflicts and there are a huge number of extrapolations where an example gets made into a law where it was never meant to be. For an example, look at the cofC stance on alcohol. For the most part, it's really, really frowned upon. It doesn't matter that Jesus' first recorded miracle was turning water into wine. It doesn't matter that Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine to calm himself down. They take a scripture like 1 Timothy 3:8 and re-engineer it to mean something it was never meant to be.

That was probably more about the cofC than most of you want to know. I was a part of them until the birth of the ICOC (International Churches of Christ) which was also known as the Boston movement and which ultimately became a cult. They took the cofC ideology to it's logical end and it was ugly. They all claim to be listening to only Jesus, but in the end they are making it up to suit themselves. Nothing wrong with that, if you're willing to suspend reality and don't mind living under a rather oppressive number of man-made rules. Personally, I had to stop drinking their Koolaid and have returned to the principles of Love.

Scuba Pete says, "News Flash: Being in the 'right' church doesn't save anyone! After all, was the church crucified for me? No. Go read I Cor 1". The answer to this question is, yes he died for the church, the church is his body which was nailed to the cross, the body is where the saved go to, that being the church, that's why we go to worship him in a building together with our brothers and sisters in Christ.


Colossians 1:18




He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


Ephesians 1:22




And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,


Ephesians 5:23




For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Romans 12:4-5


For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12

For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

Ephesians 4:4

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

Colossians 1:24


Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

Colossians 1:18


He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.







John 2:19-22

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Ephesians 2:19-22

So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 1 Corinthians 12:13


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:19


and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

1 Corinthians 10:16-17

Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

Ephesians 4:15-16

but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

1 Corinthians 12:25-26

so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Ephesians 4:25


Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.

Ephesians 5:29-30

for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.

Colossians 3:15


Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.

Romans 12:6-8

Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

1 Corinthians 12:12-31

For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. Ephesians 4:11-13

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

 

[metis]

News Flash: Being in the 'right' church doesn't save anyone! After all, was the church crucified for me? No. Go read I Cor 1

This is patently false... you're trying to get them into -YOUR- church since you have equated -YOUR- church with salvation. That's what I'm reading here and it's not supported by scriptures.

This is typical. At the onset of the church of Christ they were often called "anabaptists" (re-baptizers) because they only accepted their baptism as valid. There's no scriptural basis for this except one lone scripture about a family that was baptized into John being re-baptized into Jesus.

This is integral to cofC doctrine. Since they are the "one true church", everyone else is a denomination, or better yet, an abomination. This gives rise to their remnant doctrine which has no basis in either fact or scripture. They have convinced themselves that there has always been a remnant of believers, the FFOF (Faithful Few on Fire), that stretches from the day of Pentecost to the present day. It should be noted that while the OT makes many references to the remnant, the NT makes no such mention. It should also be noted that they can only trace themselves back to the restoration movement by Stone and Campbell started in the late 18th century.

If you read in Shava's last response, they feel they have "restored" the NT church and follow Jesus by patterning their church off of the example found in churches mentioned in the NT. This has had some unintended consequences. At one time, there was a real schism caused by their own legalism. Churches actually dis-fellowshipped one another over whether one had a kitchen or not, whether they used wine or grape juice and if they allowed instrumental music or not. If it wasn't a part of the New Testament church, then they feel it should not be a part of the current church. It doesn't matter that the New Testament church didn't read from the New Testament: they do now. It doesn't matter that the New Testament church didn't own buildings much less use electronics, AC, cars, busses and the like. But just try to play a piano or guitar and you are anathema! If it's not convenient, they don't follow the example set by the New Testament church but if you believe differently about any of their accepted "truths" then you're dis-fellowshipped.

What's really humorous to me is the deification of Sunday. It appears that the New Testament churches, which were largely Jewish, met on Sunday since all the synagogues were used on Saturdays. Rather than see this as a departure from all Jewish laws and customs, they turn it into it's own law. Throughout the whole New Testament, we're introduced to the concept that we have only one law, the law of love and that we should not let ourselves be encumbered with additional laws. In a horrible irony, the church of Christ has turned the NT into a set of laws more complicated than the US tax code. There are lots of conflicts and there are a huge number of extrapolations where an example gets made into a law where it was never meant to be. For an example, look at the cofC stance on alcohol. For the most part, it's really, really frowned upon. It doesn't matter that Jesus' first recorded miracle was turning water into wine. It doesn't matter that Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine to calm himself down. They take a scripture like 1 Timothy 3:8 and re-engineer it to mean something it was never meant to be.

That was probably more about the cofC than most of you want to know. I was a part of them until the birth of the ICOC (International Churches of Christ) which was also known as the Boston movement and which ultimately became a cult. They took the cofC ideology to it's logical end and it was ugly. They all claim to be listening to only Jesus, but in the end they are making it up to suit themselves. Nothing wrong with that, if you're willing to suspend reality and don't mind living under a rather oppressive number of man-made rules. Personally, I had to stop drinking their Koolaid and have returned to the principles of Love.

Thank you so much for your detailed response. Let me just make one point, and that is something I mentioned to shava, namely that "the Way" met on the 1st day of the week (Sunday) because of the celebration of the "agape meal", which is mentioned in the "Didache" written somewhere around 100 c.e. The church historians I've read put the more formal change to Sunday as being the main day of worship during the 2nd century, and it may have been more of an "evolution" than a "revolution" (i.e. a gradual transition). By the end of that century, the transition appears to have been complete.

Also, according to BAR, archaeologists have found what appear to be Christian synagogues, so it appears that they were building their own versus being allowed to use the Jewish synagogues that they had largely been kicked out of.

Again, thanks for your input on this.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The answer to this question is, yes he died for the church

Wow, if you can't prove 'em wrong, overpower them with an onslaught of scriptures. Unfortunately, you made a contention that's not supported by them. Read them again, and you'll see with all those scriptures you cited and not one said "Jesus died for the church". Why is that? Is the church baptized or are individuals baptized? In Acts2, does Peter say the church crucified Jesus or the individuals? How about Galatians 2?

Galatians 2: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. -NIV

Was the church crucified with Christ or the individual? Yes, the church has been compared to being the "body" of Christ... because the church is supposed to be about the business of loving others, just as Jesus did. Unfortunately, they seem to be too busy making up rules and judging others to be able to do much good.

Baptism is for adults, let a child be a child, and one must be baptized only in the true church, that being the church of Christ. I wish you and your wife would have gone with her and studied and you would see that God desires a child to be a child, as a child hasn't a need to be baptized.

Now show us where the scriptures say "Thou shalt not baptize a child". Go ahead. We'll be patient. While you're at it, trot out the scripture where it said you have to be baptized only in the "true church". In addition, find one reference to the "true church". Mostly, they are referred to as "the churches at...", twice they are referred to as "churches of God" and once as the "church of the first born". But we never see it referred to as the "true church". Again, that's just another man-made concept with no foundation in scripture. I thought you said you patterned the cofCs off of the scriptures but I'm not seeing that. Not at all.

 

[Scuba Pete]

"the Way" met on the 1st day of the week (Sunday) because of the celebration of the "agape meal",

My point was that the current tradition of church on Sunday is just that: a tradition. Seventh Day Adventists meet on Saturday due to the 10 commandments. It's their choice and there is certainly no rule in the scriptures that mandate Sunday over Saturday. Jesus loved to troll the legalists over crap like this. Look at his parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10), about the child or ox in a hole on the Sabbath (Luke 14) and so on. They conveniently ignore this verse

Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". -NIV

This could be said about scripture and even the church.

Also, according to BAR, archaeologists have found what appear to be Christian synagogues, so it appears that they were building their own versus being allowed to use the Jewish synagogues that they had largely been kicked out of.

Hey, that's cool. I'm not for or against churches having buildings. I'm just pointing out that a strict legalistic reading of scripture doesn't support this.

 

[metis]

In Acts, it refers to a family being baptized, thus implying different age groups, but there's no doubt that infant baptism wasn't the norm. Where it became as such was during one of the early plagues that killed an estimated 1/3 of all children in Europe, so the church decided that parents could have their child baptized since it was an introduction into the church anyway. So, to deal with the "faith" part of of the baptism ceremony, they created "confirmation", which then put the final touches on it.

So, in essence, the one sacrament became two that are tied together. Even though I ain't Christian, that separation makes sense to me, especially considering the deaths during the plagues and the parent's love and concern for their children's future.

 

[metis]

My point was that the current tradition of church on Sunday is just that: a tradition. Seventh Day Adventists meet on Saturday due to the 10 commandments. It's their choice and there is certainly no rule in the scriptures that mandate Sunday over Saturday. Jesus loved to troll the legalists over crap like this. Look at his parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10), about the child or ox in a hole on the Sabbath (Luke 14) and so on. They conveniently ignore this verse

Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". -NIV

This could be said about scripture and even the church.

Good and valid points, imo.

For those in the CoC to insist on one day of the week being mandated, and then to claim that the day must be Sunday, is just so nonsensical. If one is to follow the Law, then they should follow all of it and not just pick and choose that which they want to follow. However, since the vast majority of Christians are not Jewish, they are not bound by the Law, therefore what you say above makes sense.

 

[Scuba Pete]

the one sacrament became two that are tied together.

I have a problem with rituals or sacraments as you call them. They fly in the face of a true change of heart.

Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. -NIV

Look at this promise from Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. -NIV

I think it's awesome and the concept of not relying on written rules is repeated throughout the NT.

 

[metis]

I have a problem with rituals or sacraments as you call them. They fly in the face of a true change of heart.

Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. -NIV

Look at this promise from Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. -NIV

I think it's awesome and the concept of not relying on written rules is repeated throughout the NT.

I don't have a problem with sacraments, even though I don't participate in them, as they can be and indeed are meaningful to many people and for the right reasons. OTOH, rote ritual with no serious intent behind it I definitely agree with you on. A ritual can reflect a change of heart, plus they can be a good reminder. IMO, they're neither good nor bad, but it's more of the mindset one has if they go through one.

 

[shava]

Thank you so much for your detailed response. Let me just make one point, and that is something I mentioned to shava, namely that "the Way" met on the 1st day of the week (Sunday) because of the celebration of the "agape meal", which is mentioned in the "Didache" written somewhere around 100 c.e. The church historians I've read put the more formal change to Sunday as being the main day of worship during the 2nd century, and it may have been more of an "evolution" than a "revolution" (i.e. a gradual transition). By the end of that century, the transition appears to have been complete.

Also, according to BAR, archaeologists have found what appear to be Christian synagogues, so it appears that they were building their own versus being allowed to use the Jewish synagogues that they had largely been kicked out of.

Again, thanks for your input on this.

The bible is the only source that is from God, if it's not in the bible, it's not God's word that he meant for us to have. Just because the Catholic put the books in order doesn't mean that God wasn't the one who actually made this happen the way he wanted, after all if he can create all there is, I'm sure you would agree he could and did make sure what he wanted us to know would get to us. There are 66 books that we are to go by, none other. The Catholic church is a man made religious entity created by the roman government, which they even designed the church's offices as there own governmental structure of positions, such as, Roman Emperor = Pope, Captains = Cardinals and on and on and on.


Jesus himself instituted Sunday as the day to take the Lord's supper, and this was followed throughout the New Testament by the Apostles and early Christians, and never do you see any other day for this happening, none.



1 Corinthians 11:26 ESV
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Mark 14:22-25 ESV
And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 26:26-29 ESV
Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 ESV
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

1 Corinthians 11:24 ESV
And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

1 Corinthians 11:23-29 ESV
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. ...

Luke 22:14-23 ESV
And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” ...

Acts 20:7 ESV
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

Luke 22:14-20 ESV
And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” ...

Matthew 26:29 ESV
I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”

1 Corinthians 11:27 ESV
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 10:16 ESV
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Acts 2:46 ESV
And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,

Acts 2:42 ESV
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

1 Corinthians 11:20 ESV
When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat.

John 14:6 ESV
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 ESV
When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.

John 6:53 ESV
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Acts 2:42-47 ESV
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, ...

1 Corinthians 5:7 ESV
Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Exodus 12:1-51 ESV
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, “This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you. Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household. And if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his nearest neighbor shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, ...

1 Corinthians 11:1-34 ESV
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. ...

Matthew 24:46 ESV
Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

 

[shava]

Wow, if you can't prove 'em wrong, overpower them with an onslaught of scriptures. Unfortunately, you made a contention that's not supported by them. Read them again, and you'll see with all those scriptures you cited and not one said "Jesus died for the church". Why is that? Is the church baptized or are individuals baptized? In Acts2, does Peter say the church crucified Jesus or the individuals? How about Galatians 2?

Galatians 2: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. -NIV

Was the church crucified with Christ or the individual? Yes, the church has been compared to being the "body" of Christ... because the church is supposed to be about the business of loving others, just as Jesus did. Unfortunately, they seem to be too busy making up rules and judging others to be able to do much good.


Now show us where the scriptures say "Thou shalt not baptize a child". Go ahead. We'll be patient. While you're at it, trot out the scripture where it said you have to be baptized only in the "true church". In addition, find one reference to the "true church". Mostly, they are referred to as "the churches at...", twice they are referred to as "churches of God" and once as the "church of the first born". But we never see it referred to as the "true church". Again, that's just another man-made concept with no foundation in scripture. I thought you said you patterned the cofCs off of the scriptures but I'm not seeing that. Not at all.

http://www.churchofchrist.com/baby-baptism.html

http://www.churchofchrist.com/baby-baptism.html

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/499-what-about-the-baptism-of-young-children

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1205-what-is-the-church-of-christ

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/470-identifying-the-church-of-the-new-testament

Just because these sources are from the churches of Christ, they still go by the verses in the bible, so please don't say I'm being bias, as scriptures are for us all, not just the churches of Christ, how else could one find the true church?

 

[shava]

Wow, if you can't prove 'em wrong, overpower them with an onslaught of scriptures. Unfortunately, you made a contention that's not supported by them. Read them again, and you'll see with all those scriptures you cited and not one said "Jesus died for the church". Why is that? Is the church baptized or are individuals baptized? In Acts2, does Peter say the church crucified Jesus or the individuals? How about Galatians 2?

Galatians 2: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. -NIV

Was the church crucified with Christ or the individual? Yes, the church has been compared to being the "body" of Christ... because the church is supposed to be about the business of loving others, just as Jesus did. Unfortunately, they seem to be too busy making up rules and judging others to be able to do much good.


Now show us where the scriptures say "Thou shalt not baptize a child". Go ahead. We'll be patient. While you're at it, trot out the scripture where it said you have to be baptized only in the "true church". In addition, find one reference to the "true church". Mostly, they are referred to as "the churches at...", twice they are referred to as "churches of God" and once as the "church of the first born". But we never see it referred to as the "true church". Again, that's just another man-made concept with no foundation in scripture. I thought you said you patterned the cofCs off of the scriptures but I'm not seeing that. Not at all.

Are you trying to imply that if a 10 year old child that dies without being baptized they would end up going to hell?

What sin has a child committed that lays heavy on there heart to make them want to change there evil life, as you seem to think they have, would cause them to want to be baptized after studying the bible to see that they need to, WHICH THEY DON'T??

But it appears according to you they must be baptized for the remissions of their sins, what have they done that has pierced their heart, there conscience to make them want to do this, I say nothing, because they haven't done anything.

Let a child be a child. Do you think that a child is born in sin, I hope not as that's a false doctrine. We did not inherit Adam and Eve's sin, we inherited there punishment for "them sinning" , not the child. Are you telling me an infant can sin, can they also read the bible, do they have a closet full of skeletons" no they do not,

Ezekiel 18:20King James Version (KJV)

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The bible is the only source that is from God, if it's not in the bible, it's not God's word that he meant for us to have.

These concepts are not supported by scripture. We established that earlier.

So, you believe in all these convoluted arguments rather than the scripture? None of that is "based" on scripture. Rather, it's twisting cherry picked scripture to create rules that don't need to exist. Why not stick to love?

 

[Riders]

Its strange to me that you keep bringing up Acts 238 because my old United Pentecostal church claimed that's scripture as theirs.

You don't receive the gifts of the spirit, either speaking I tongues or one of the gifts as described by the bible,and you don't baptize in the name of Jesus only instead of the Father Son and Holy Ghost.

That's how my old church interpreted.I did try to find the Pentecostal denomintions and maybe ask questions for directive but out Christian denominations don't have a section for them.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Jesus himself instituted Sunday as the day to take the Lord's supper,

Scripture reference here. You do realize that the very first Lord's Supper was Thursday night, before Jesus was crucified.

Are you trying to imply that if a 10 year old child that dies without being baptized they would end up going to hell?

Where did I ever say that? I'm not into all these rules like you are. You're extrapolating my beliefs just like you extrapolate laws from the NT.