How does God work again?

[Apologes]

The god of the bible has nothing in it's Official Handbook (bible) that is outside of the middle east-- and a very tiny area of the middle east at that.

The Christian God is very clear that He wishes all people to be saved hence why he commanded the apostles to go and spread the gospel to all nations.

The Christian God is anything but a local God of middle east.

Why? Clearly, the authors of the bible were entirely ignorant of Asia, Africa, the Americas, Antarctica, and even of Europe.

Now if the bible's god is the supposed creator of all these places, why did it not reveal information about them? Why the omission?

You really think the authors of the biblical texts didn't know there were people outside of Middle East despite living under the Roman Empire which had it's reach over Europe, Africa and Asia?

But it gets even worse-- not a single appearance of the bible's god, after about 400BC, if you don't count Jesus. No burning bushes, no towering pillars of flame or cloud, no death-by-accidental-Ark-touching, none of that.

No all consuming fires burning the altars of rival gods.

No amazing survival from the belly of sea-beasts.

No rivers of blood, no rains of toads, no death of all the firstborn, no parting of seas, none of that.

No fallen walls around an enemy city.

No halting the rotation of the earth-- or literally, "stopping the sun's motion in the sky".

No raining fire and brimstone to destroy a pair of unruly cities. No transforming women into salt. No rescues of men in hungry lion cages. No toppling of giant statues. No giants...!

All of that? Quit Happening.

WHY?

The fullness of revalation was accomplished through Christ. Even if granted that those miracles were happening often before (they weren't) why should there be any more?

As I said: A very, very tiny god who only seemed to be in it's PRIME, 3000+ years gone, with nothing since.

A very tiny god, at best.

All you said so far was:

1) that the Bible is only focused on Middle East (not true)
2) that miracles no longer happen

Even if I were to grant both, it still wouldn't follow that God is somehow tiny. What you would need to show is that it is somehow implausible that God would allow (1) and (2) but you've yet to do that. All you did was assert it's so.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

All you said so far was:

1) that the Bible is only focused on Middle East (not true)
2) that miracles no longer happen

Even if I were to grant both, it still wouldn't follow that God is somehow tiny. What you would need to show is that it is somehow implausible that God would allow (1) and (2) but you've yet to do that. All you did was assert it's so.

1) prove it -- show me bible passages that describe North or South America. or Australia, New Zealand, etc. Or anywhere in Europe for that matter. Asia, even.

None such exist-- the language barely covers the Eastern part of the edge of the Mediterranean Sea-- which is not even described as an inland ocean!

A very tiny god that cannot inspire it's followers to even Imagine a world larger than they. Kinda pathetic, really, when you consider the Big Picture (the rest of the world).

2) Indeed. Why do Miraculous! Stupendous! Amazing! things never seem to happen in this, the modern age?

On, and I mean things that are NOT explainable by modern understanding, of course-- it's no longer a Miracle if we can explain it, is it?

No, it appears that your god is severely limited, utterly lacking of any foresight and just cannot manage to even keep up with it's Official Handbook!

This has lead to 40,000 different Brands of Genuine Christianity alone-- let alone the 1000's of non-christian religions alive and well on Planet Earth.

And no-- the claim is not on ME! Silly. The claim is on YOU.

You claim your god wants everyone to be saved-- yet? You cannot show that is true even if you use the bible!

The fact that there are 1000's of non-christian religions on Earth, is ample proof that is patently untrue.

The multiple versions of the bible alone is proof there is no god behind it. What sort of chaotic god would permit so many conflicting versions to exist, diluting the "message"?

Answer: A very tiny, weak god who's entire scope was a tiny slice of the Middle East. And just as clear, if this god once existed? It does so no longer. The existence of competing religions alone proves that.

The fact that this god waited until the majority of humans had lived and died, before bothering to put in an appearance? Is another proof-- it it existed, it came into being late in the Story, and left quickly thereafter.

 

[Apologes]

1) prove it -- show me bible passages that describe North or South America. or Australia, New Zealand, etc. Or anywhere in Europe for that matter. Asia, even.

You seriously think people in the first century living in the Roman Empire (one of the most connected and overarching at the time) didn't know there were places outside of middle East? (Why in the world should they know about America?) You don't even need the Bible to prove you wrong, any historian will tell you that.

Regardless, Paul established and wrote to Churches all over Europe. Hence the Epistles to Romans and Corhintians. Paul even died in Rome. Last time I checked Corinth was in Greece (Balkan area of Europe) and Rome is in Italy (again Europe).

Seriously though, the fact that you actually said something like this shows a staggering amount of ignorance not just about the Bible but history in general.

Geography and history aside though, I already pointed out that Christianity teaches that Christ died so all could be saved and Christ himself commanded the apostles to spread his message to all nations. It's a fundamentally open religion that transcends the local area in which it originated. You haven't really addressed any of that.

None such exist-- the language barely covers the Eastern part of the edge of the Mediterranean Sea-- which is not even described as an inland ocean!

A very tiny god that cannot inspire it's followers to even Imagine a world larger than they. Kinda pathetic, really, when you consider the Big Picture (the rest of the world).

Even if I were to grant the previous paragraph, you make a huge leap in logic from "didn't inspire" to "cannot inspire". Let alone the fact that there is no need to teach geography in theological texts, the most you could deduce from the absence of such things is that God did not reveal them, not that he couldn't have done so.

2) Indeed. Why do Miraculous! Stupendous! Amazing! things never seem to happen in this, the modern age?

Again, you haven't answered my question, why should they?

On, and I mean things that are NOT explainable by modern understanding, of course-- it's no longer a Miracle if we can explain it, is it?

No, it appears that your god is severely limited, utterly lacking of any foresight and just cannot manage to even keep up with it's Official Handbook!

This has lead to 40,000 different Brands of Genuine Christianity alone-- let alone the 1000's of non-christian religions alive and well on Planet Earth.

And no-- the claim is not on ME! Silly. The claim is on YOU.

You claim your god wants everyone to be saved-- yet? You cannot show that is true even if you use the bible!

The fact that there are 1000's of non-christian religions on Earth, is ample proof that is patently untrue.

The multiple versions of the bible alone is proof there is no god behind it. What sort of chaotic god would permit so many conflicting versions to exist, diluting the "message"?

Answer: A very tiny, weak god who's entire scope was a tiny slice of the Middle East. And just as clear, if this god once existed? It does so no longer. The existence of competing religions alone proves that.

Now you just went on an off-topic rant (if you haven't done so already). Religious pluralism, the nature and frequency of miracles, etc - none of this has anything to do with the argument presented in the OP.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, it's a given that god--- being all-powerful, can do what it pleases, as it pleases.

The question is WHY wait 1000's of generations, and WHY limit itself to that tiny little speck of land?

What possible motive would this god have, to be so.... tiny in it's scope?

It no doubt hones in on the origin and starting point of a long-standing mythological account.

 

[atanu]

Well, if one takes all the Holy Books of the world? They are all pretty certain that NONE of those "other" books are accurate. They each purport to be the One And Only True Book That Rules Them All.

This has lead to a great many .... wars: Humans in conflict, cutting each other's throats in an argument over what happens to humans when their throats were cut.

If this 'creator' had any sense of Ethics? It would behoove it to Do Something to eliminate all these terminally contradictory books, leaving just the One True Book.

Notebook: It is Impossible for All Holy Books to be True.
However, it is quite possible for all of them to be wrong.

Don’t guess. Give me actual details from a scripture where another scripture is declared untrue. Sometimes an extant practice may be pointed out for change.

 

[InChrist]

And as I continue to try to point out, has so far missed the majority of that world.

In God's economy the work of Christ on the cross, as Savior, to pay for the sins of the world, is the focal point of history and is applicable to each and every person who has ever lived, before or after.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You seriously think people in the first century living in the Roman Empire (one of the most connected and overarching at the time) didn't know there were places outside of middle East? (Why in the world should they know about America?) You don't even need the Bible to prove you wrong, any historian will tell you that.

Why would they NOT know? Did not the alleged "author" of the bible create the planet?

Just going by what this "creator" did, and where? The bible's god really only "created" a tiny patch of soil in the Middle East.

The omission from the bible of the actual shape and size of the planet is pretty good evidence that if the bible IS "inspired" by a god, the god in question really had no clue how big (or what shape) the earth is.

I expect Superior Knowledge from any being who is given the title of "creator".

The god you are content with seems rather small.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Regardless, Paul established and wrote to Churches all over Europe. Hence the Epistles to Romans and Corhintians. Paul even died in Rome. Last time I checked Corinth was in Greece (Balkan area of Europe) and Rome is in Italy (again Europe).

Really. You know this.... how? Are there corroborating documents that prove this ... "Paul" actually did those things?

Do you have any original material, here? Or is it all hearsay, Friend Of A Friend stories passed around, elaborated on, expanded, changed, modified, edited and changed some more... that pretty much describes the entire so-called "New" testament.

Notebook: How on earth can you call something "new" if it's 1700 years old?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Seriously though, the fact that you actually said something like this shows a staggering amount of ignorance not just about the Bible but history in general.

Dude! The bible isn't actual history. Show me actual history that supports the claims you just made, here, and you might have a valid point, above.

I do find it ironic that someone such as you, would complain about history in conjunction with the bible, when in fact, there is zero historical documentation in support of the entire NT.

Not one document written during that time and place-- not a single historian, personal letter, statue, street sign, court document-- nothing-- written during the supposed life of the Jesus or Paul characters.

Oh, sure-- there's some minor things written about 100+ years after. So what? That's hearsay or gossip or similar.

As for your "staggering amount of ignorance" taunt? Well..... I'll just consider the source of that and laugh and laugh and laugh...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It no doubt hones in on the origin and starting point of a long-standing mythological account.

Oh, I agree. The similarity to other myths common to that time and place is hardly coincidence, I think.

It's pretty obvious the christian mythos borrowed elements from several other mythic stories common to that time and place.

 

[sayak83]

isn't it reasonable, what i wrote?

No. Mary could have been the daughter of Eve, then the situation would have been resolved in prehistory itself.

Also, obviously, nothing at all in the human condition has visibly changed before and after Jesus.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Don’t guess. Give me actual details from a scripture where another scripture is declared untrue. Sometimes an extant practice may be pointed out for change.

I have never seen a so-called holy book that did not declare somewhere within, that it was the One True Message or similar.

If you have studied how Theistic Memes are propagated from one generation to the next, there are several important details all the successful ones have.

Exclusivity is one of the most important traits; if the meme does not contain that idea, there is considerably less motive to pass it down to the next generation.

But if you include the idea that this is the One And Only? That trait pretty much guarantees it'll make the leap to the subsequent generations.

 

[Apologes]

Why would they NOT know? Did not the alleged "author" of the bible create the planet?

Just going by what this "creator" did, and where? The bible's god really only "created" a tiny patch of soil in the Middle East.

The omission from the bible of the actual shape and size of the planet is pretty good evidence that if the bible IS "inspired" by a god, the god in question really had no clue how big (or what shape) the earth is.

I expect Superior Knowledge from any being who is given the title of "creator".

The god you are content with seems rather small.

I don't hold the view that God literally wrote the Bible and do not prescribe to biblical inerrancy.

Really. You know this.... how? Are there corroborating documents that prove this ... "Paul" actually did those things?

Dude! The bible isn't actual history. Show me actual history that supports the claims you just made, here, and you might have a valid point, above.

Virtually all scholars who study the history of early Christianity will tell you that Paul did those things. Even the most fringe Jesus-myth theorists don't dispute that. Again, familiarize yourself with the subject at hand instead of spouting such nonsense.

I do find it ironic that someone such as you, would complain about history in conjunction with the bible, when in fact, there is zero historical documentation in support of the entire NT.

Not one document written during that time and place-- not a single historian, personal letter, statue, street sign, court document-- nothing-- written during the supposed life of the Jesus or Paul characters.

Again, no scholar doubts that Paul existed, established christian Churches in those areas and wrote to them. Those are established historical facts about a historical person who preached and wrote to other early Christians in the first century.

Oh, sure-- there's some minor things written about 100+ years after. So what? That's hearsay or gossip or similar.

At least 7 (of the 13) Pauline epistles are considered authentic by most scholars. This means that an actual early Christian named Paul of Tarsus, who lived in the first century and was jewish and a Roman citizen, wrote genuine letters (earliest of which is dated to 50AD which was only 17 years after the crucifixion of Jesus which you also may be surprised to find is a historical event) wrote to actual early Christians living in said cities with the intent of addressing actual historical issues that bothered said Christians.

The fact that you aren't aware of this really shows you haven't done your homework.

As for your "staggering amount of ignorance" taunt? Well..... I'll just consider the source of that and laugh and laugh and laugh...

Well, it's better to laugh then cry, but it's even better to drop the incredulity and actually study the things that you're talking about.

Still, since you may not have picked it up in the last post, none of these issues (historicity of Paul and Jesus, biblical inerrancy etc) have anything to do with the argument presented by the OP which I was responding to and which focused on the fate of the unevangelized. Until you decide to say something relevant to the discussion, don't expect me to engage with you any further.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In God's economy the work of Christ on the cross, as Savior, to pay for the sins of the world, is the focal point of history and is applicable to each and every person who has ever lived, before or after.

Oh, how I object to this notion. Yet I still have to mention to @atanu that it supports my contention that many, many Christians don't support his views, above.

Nobody can pay for my sins. If I do wrong, I am guilty. I can try to atone. I can try to pay back or right the wrong, or at the very least apologize and beg forgiveness -- which hopefully might be granted, as I grant forgiveness to others who have hurt me but show regret.

I personally find this "substitutionary atonement, " this "scapegoating" to be an appalling idea. And you will answer that "Jesus paid the price, and if you acknowledge that, and repent your sins, you can be saved." And I will tell you that I am satisfied with simply repenting my wrongs, and trusting the forgiveness of those I have wronged, and that believing that somebody else has already paid adds nothing and is useless.

 

[atanu]

Oh, how I object to this notion. Yet I still have to mention to @atanu that it supports my contention that many, many Christians don't support his views, above.

But I understand InChrist’s view and agree (although he may or may not understand me).

When Shri Krishna teaches, He too is not teaching for only a small section. Actually ‘your and mine’ and ‘our and their’ differentiation is of mind. Shri Krishna teaches us to come out of that illusion, teaching us that the existence-consciousness is indivisible but appears divided.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But I understand InChrist’s view and agree (although he may or may not understand me).

When Shri Krishna teaches, He too is not teaching for only a small section. Actually ‘your and mine’ and ‘our and their’ differentiation is of mind. Shri Krishna teaches us to come out of that illusion, teaching us that the existence-consciousness is indivisible but appears divided.

Yes, but you see, it's this word "teaches" that always disturbs me. I prefer things that can be demonstrated or shown to be true, rather needing to be "taught" so as to be believed.

My own reason tells me that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Similarly, if my consciousness is entirely unavailable to you in any way unless I take some action to share some tiny amount with you, then the appearance of the division of our consciousnesses is likely the reality, too.

 

[corynski]

Yes, it's a given that god--- being all-powerful, can do what it pleases, as it pleases.

The question is WHY wait 1000's of generations, and WHY limit itself to that tiny little speck of land?

What possible motive would this god have, to be so.... tiny in it's scope?

I heard long ago that there existed tribes in the Amazon that had never heard of Christianity or 'God', and it was obvious why, apparently the Christian 'God' was only interested in that little bit of land next to the sea for 'His' people. In the remainder of the world there already existed hundreds and thousands of gods and goddesses for all of the individual hunting and gathering groups........ But, were god belief not instilled in our brains from birth by religion, logic might quickly deal with the situation, given the advent of science and the scientific method, but instead we find a war between belief and unbelief......

 

[atanu]

Yes, but you see, it's this word "teaches" that always disturbs me. I prefer things that can be demonstrated or shown to be true, rather needing to be "taught" so as to be believed.

That is odd. I am ready to be taught physics. I am ready to be taught economics. No problems.

My own reason tells me that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Similarly, if my consciousness is entirely unavailable to you in any way unless I take some action to share some tiny amount with you, then the appearance of the division of our consciousnesses is likely the reality, too.

Well. In a dream too you fail to realise that the "Evangelicalhumanist" being pursued by a ferocious tiger are not two real different things.

I am grateful to my teacher for having granted me theoretical and practical glimpse of the unitive consciousness.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I heard long ago that there existed tribes in the Amazon that had never heard of Christianity or 'God', and it was obvious why, apparently the Christian 'God' was only interested in that little bit of land next to the sea for 'His' people. In the remainder of the world there already existed hundreds and thousands of gods and goddesses for all of the individual hunting and gathering groups........ But, were god belief not instilled in our brains from birth by religion, logic might quickly deal with the situation, given the advent of science and the scientific method, but instead we find a war between belief and unbelief......

I have always enjoyed the idea behind the phrase: "The Power Of Myth" (Campbell, I think?)

Back before writing, when language was strictly oral (with possible symbolic memes expressed as jewelry, patterns, statues, cave art and so on) humans thrived in cooperative groups.

One way to help with group identification, was Group Story Telling. This hasn't change in 50,000+ years and is unlikely to change anytime soon: Who among us does not have Cute Family Stories? That we tell and re-tell over and over, anytime family groups get together?

So, too Religion used to belong in Group Story Telling, and was used to bind the group together, give it Identity, and other useful things to a tribe scratching out a living through hunting and gathering.

Back then, it was just another facet of the Tribe.

Alas.... some <expletive> discovered that you can leverage Religion into Control. Humans have been suffering under that ugly mutation of Group Story-telling ever since...

 

[InChrist]

Oh, how I object to this notion. Yet I still have to mention to @atanu that it supports my contention that many, many Christians don't support his views, above.

Nobody can pay for my sins. If I do wrong, I am guilty. I can try to atone. I can try to pay back or right the wrong, or at the very least apologize and beg forgiveness -- which hopefully might be granted, as I grant forgiveness to others who have hurt me but show regret.

I personally find this "substitutionary atonement, " this "scapegoating" to be an appalling idea. And you will answer that "Jesus paid the price, and if you acknowledge that, and repent your sins, you can be saved." And I will tell you that I am satisfied with simply repenting my wrongs, and trusting the forgiveness of those I have wronged, and that believing that somebody else has already paid adds nothing and is useless.

You may find the substitutionay atonement offered by Jesus appalling, but according to the scriptures all wrong doing against anyone on this earth is sin against the infinite God who created each person and therefore the penalty is infinite. A finite being, as yourself or myself, cannot ever pay this infinite penalty, but an infinite Being can and did on our behalf in the Person of Jesus Christ...God with us (Matthew 1:23)