How does consciousness interact with the brain?

[tayla]

When you are conscious, the information travels via every possible route. through the brain.

Yes, I have no doubt that there is a tight correlation between the functioning of the neural network and the subjective experience of consciousness. But I have trouble believing that consciousness is nothing more than this.

I think conscious and the mind reside in the spiritual realm and is triggered when the brain enters the right state. And there is two way communication, but I can discover no mechanism for this communication between mind and body. So sad.

 

[George-ananda]

This raises another nagging question: why are we not conscious of the activities of our mental life or soul? Seems odd to me that our soul is so blind.

Well I think our normal waking consciousness involves the physical, etheric, astral and mental bodies. So their activity IS what we call consciousness experiencing.

 

[tayla]

Well I think our normal waking consciousness involves the physical, etheric, astral and mental bodies. So their activity IS what we call consciousness experiencing.

Yes, I think something like this. That the subjective experience of consciousness resides in the spiritual realm, *not* the physical realm.

What about unconscious mental activity?

 

[George-ananda]

Somehow this explanation is not sufficient. What is it in the physical body that vibrates? How are messages and information encoded in this vibration? Why can't science detect these vibrations? (Dark matter is detected via its gravitational effects.)

Group neuronal activity is what I mean by vibrating; thought waves. Science can detect neuronal activity but cannot detect astral and mental activity as it occurs in dimensions outside the familiar three of our senses and instruments.

Dark matter also cannot be directly detected but is inferred indirectly.

 

[tayla]

Group neuronal activity is what I mean by vibrating; thought waves.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

It may well be at the quantum level where the seemingly 'spooky' physical behavior has its origin in higher realms.

How does that work?

That question is above my pay level and science at this time.

My belief in the existence of the higher realms comes from my study of so-called paranormal phenomena. The science may come in this next century. Post-materialist science is already a thing but I am no expert in that science.

Even if those phenomena are true, what makes you think that the mechanism involves a higher realm?

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Group neuronal activity is what I mean by vibrating; thought waves.

Given the size of neurons that would be well above the size that we would expect for quantum interactions. Also, the "wave" of a nerve impulse is relatively slow, anywhere from 0.5 to 120 m/s, and it involves many non-quantum events along the axon. At the cellular level, what exactly are you looking at?

Science can detect neuronal activity but cannot detect astral and mental activity as it occurs in dimensions outside the familiar three of our senses and instruments.

How exactly are these dimensions interacting with neurons?

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, I have no doubt that there is a tight correlation between the functioning of the neural network and the subjective experience of consciousness. But I have trouble believing that consciousness is nothing more than this.

I think conscious and the mind reside in the spiritual realm and is triggered when the brain enters the right state. And there is two way communication, but I can discover no mechanism for this communication between mind and body. So sad.

Where does consciousness go when you sleep?
I don't know that you are wrong but, consciousness seems to disappear when you are in deep sleep. If it wasn't dependent on the function of the brain I'd suspect consciousness to be something continual. Instead when you sleep consciousness, the conscious self no longer exists.

 

[George-ananda]

How does that work?

I and no one can yet explain the details of how quantum mechanics works. But the mechanics is accepted but not well understood at this time.

Even if those phenomena are true, what makes you think that the mechanism involves a higher realm?

From my personal study of the paranormal and from those who I believe can give us genuine psychic insight into the workings of nature beyond the realm of our three-dimensional physical senses and instruments.

Given the size of neurons that would be well above the size that we would expect for quantum interactions. Also, the "wave" of a nerve impulse is relatively slow, anywhere from 0.5 to 120 m/s, and it involves many non-quantum events along the axon. At the cellular level, what exactly are you looking at?

Now a full explanation by me or science is not available at this time. From a scientific perspective we can start to consider the work of people like Stuart Hameroff who are discussing quantum states in neural microtubules. No full scientific explanation for the entire process exists at this time.

How exactly are these dimensions interacting with neurons?

Again, I have no answer for your 'exactly' question at this time in history. I am suggesting that seemingly 'spooky' quantum events that have been observed involve activity in dimensions not yet directly detectable. And that there are extra-dimensional reasons behind the seeming 'unpredictability' of quantum behavior mentioned in today's science.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

I and no one can yet explain the details of how quantum mechanics works. But the mechanics is accepted but not well understood at this time.

It seems that we actually know a lot about QM. We are even building computers based on QM.

From my personal study of the paranormal and from those who I believe can give us genuine psychic insight into the workings of nature beyond the realm of our three-dimensional physical senses and instruments.

What led you to believe that there is a realm outside of this universe? Why couldn't these observations be due to physical causes within our 3D space? For example, it is thought that some birds use the Earth's magnetic fields to guide them to different places, so why couldn't there be something similar going on with the observations you are pointing to?

Now a full explanation by me or science is not available at this time. From a scientific perspective we can start to consider the work of people like Stuart Hameroff who are discussing quantum states in neural microtubules. No full scientific explanation for the entire process exists at this time.

If you want to start discussing that work I would be happy to reply.

Again, I have no answer for your 'exactly' question at this time in history. I am suggesting that seemingly 'spooky' quantum events that have been observed involve activity in dimensions not yet directly detectable. And that there are extra-dimensional reasons behind the seeming 'unpredictability' of quantum behavior mentioned in today's science.

The first question that comes to my mind is "Why suggest those extra dimensions to begin with?".

 

[Polymath257]

I and no one can yet explain the details of how quantum mechanics works. But the mechanics is accepted but not well understood at this time.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. We have very clear statements about how quantum mechanics works. We know how to apply it in a very wide variety of situations.

Where people have problems is when they attempt to use classical notions like 'particle' and 'wave' for 'quantum particles'. If that is attempted, all sorts of crud is produced. It seems that is what you are asking for when asking for a 'mechanism'.

 

[George-ananda]

It seems that we actually know a lot about QM. We are even building computers based on QM.

I am reminded here of some statement of Richard Feynman to the effect that if anyone claims they understand quantum mechanics, they are showing they don't understand it.

Now exploiting applications of the phenomena like in quantum computing does not imply an understanding of the nature of the phenomena.

What led you to believe that there is a realm outside of this universe? Why couldn't these observations be due to physical causes within our 3D space? For example, it is thought that some birds use the Earth's magnetic fields to guide them to different places, so why couldn't there be something similar going on with the observations you are pointing to?

Well, in my study of the paranormal I have even come to believe in the activity of and intelligent communication from non-physical entities.

I am guessing you may not believe in the existence of many so-called paranormal phenomena and that debate would take us into a discussion beyond the intended scope of this thread.

If you want to start discussing that work I would be happy to reply.

I am just a listener at this time to their work.

I am of the opinion that certain phenomena exists and the scientific details are yet to be explained.

The first question that comes to my mind is "Why suggest those extra dimensions to begin with?".

I think I have answered that question already and it is the result of my study of the paranormal and the psychic insights of those who I believe can perceive beyond the limits of our physical senses and instruments.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Well, in my study of the paranormal I have even come to believe in the activity of and intelligent communication from non-physical entities.

I am guessing you may not believe in the existence of many so-called paranormal phenomena and that debate would take us into a discussion beyond the intended scope of this thread.

I was hoping to get beyond "I have come to believe" and get more into the science of it.

 

[George-ananda]

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. We have very clear statements about how quantum mechanics works. We know how to apply it in a very wide variety of situations.

My point is that the very nature of quantum behavior is mysterious to science at this time. I think even most mainstream quantum physicists would agree on that.

 

[Polymath257]

I am reminded here of some statement of Richard Feynman to the effect that if anyone claims they understand quantum mechanics, they are showing they don't understand it.

Now exploiting applications of the phenomena like in quantum computing does not imply an understanding of the nature of the phenomena.

OK, what *would* constitute understanding them? We have a full theoretical framework from which to address questions in a wide variety of subjects. We understand how to make predictions and our predictions agree with observations.

What else, specifically, do you think is required for understanding?

 

[George-ananda]

I was hoping to get beyond "I have come to believe" and get more into the science of it.

I must disappoint then. I am not a quantum scientist but just one who starts from macro-observations.

 

[Polymath257]

My point is that the very nature of quantum behavior is mysterious to science at this time. I think even most mainstream quantum physicists would agree on that.

Again, I have no idea what you mean by that. Once again, we can predict observations incredibly well. We have an overall framework from which to do so. What is this elusive 'nature' that is being missed?

I think those who are writing books for lay people wanting to cash in on the 'woo' factor are making a big deal out of this, but actual scientists are not. Again, asking for a 'nature' sounds suspiciously like asking for a 'mechanism', which implies classical thinking, not quantum thinking.

 

[George-ananda]

Again, I have no idea what you mean by that. Once again, we can predict observations incredibly well. We have an overall framework from which to do so. What is this elusive 'nature' that is being missed?

I think those who are writing books for lay people wanting to cash in on the 'woo' factor are making a big deal out of this, but actual scientists are not. Again, asking for a 'nature' sounds suspiciously like asking for a 'mechanism', which implies classical thinking, not quantum thinking.

OK, if you think you understand the nature of quantum behavior than I will leave you to it, I guess.

 

[Polymath257]

OK, if you think you understand the nature of quantum behavior than I will leave you to it, I guess.

I just don't think that it is ultimately a meaningful phrase. We have very explicit rules for the 'behavior' that can be used to make testable predictions.

As Feynman would say, I'm in the 'shut up and calculate' crowd.

 

[exchemist]

OK, if you think you understand the nature of quantum behavior than I will leave you to it, I guess.

I'm with Polymath on this.

Science can only explain phenomena down to a certain level. If one continues, like an 8yr old child, asking why, why, why questions at each level of explanation, sooner or later you get to the bottom at which the only possible reply is "It is just is, according to the model we have, which is based on what observations tell us". The goal of science is to make predictive models of the physical world, not to answer metaphysical questions about ultimate meaning or understanding.

This is no more of an issue with QM than with General Relativity, which is equally counterintuitive and which, like QM, dissolves eventually into mathematics rather than nice 3D pictorial concepts.

It seems to me there is a danger of getting sucked into quantum woo. Some rather suspect people have latched onto obscurantist descriptions of QM to provide a specious underpinning for all sorts of un-evidenced ideas. I have yet to read a convincing account of how quantum processes really do anything special in the brain.

But then I am a bit of a refusenik on all this "consciousness" mystique in the first place. It seems to me that treating consciousness as an entity, a "thing", is making a category error. I regard it as an activity of the brain - the functioning of the brain's operating system, if you like. I suspect we shall come to regard Cartesian dualism as a philosophical wrong turning, driven at the time by lack of understanding of what we now call computing.