How do you live knowing this?

[The Sum of Awe]

I want to start off by saying, a lot of people believing I find the empathetic ones the pathetic ones (which I tend to do) but not because I believe empathy is wrong, I wouldn't mind anyone being selfless as long as they do not work for me and I don't work for them, but I am being sickened by all of the liars out there who claim to be selfless, altruistic people, and the REAL altruistic people (that is probably very rare) are doing it for nothing, altruism is becoming an overused philosophy, but it's not overused in practice, just in speech, many people claim to be selfless, but it shows less and less tally marks towards those who actually are, and the ones that actually are are now so hard to find, when I actually need them, when nobody is listening to me, I can't trust anyone, I don't know if anyone will listen to what I have to say anymore so I haven't said much lately, because when I say something I add no extra bits, you have to hear the whole thing to understand it completely, which is why a lot of people recently had been misinterpreting me, not only on the forum either.

I can't say I listen to others fully myself, but I certainly do not lie and say I do. I need someone to talk to desperately, but everyone I talk to is either payed to listen, otherwise acting to listen.



How can you live knowing this? Everyone around you is like you, every one of your friends don't actually care how are you doing every single time they ask that, your friends don't really care that it's you birthday, they just say it to make it look like they care, they're just like you, and when the world comes falling on you like it is in the process of doing for me, you can't trust anyone to listen.

Lying about being altruistic is way too common, and for a little while there, I believed nobody was altruistic, but now I realize there are, but they're just hard to find.

How do you live realizing you rarely anybody's full attention? It's like doing skateboard tricks that pro's do, and all of your friends are on their video games. Except this is becoming less for attention, my mind is crying, but until I can distinguish the liars from the listeners, my physical appearance will look as if nothing is happening.

Do not force yourself to listen, because that will make you lose focus as well, you either are interested or you aren't. This would eliminate quite a bit of those who call themselves altruists...

 

[Willamena]

How do you live realizing you rarely anybody's full attention?

That's not something that's important to me.

 

[Straw Dog]

There is no definite distinction between egoism and altruism. There is no ego without others and others do not have meaning without the ego. The self cannot fully actualize itself without the presence of others. You are who you are because others who they are. We tend toward self-sacrifice on an instinctual level because it's the only way to realize our original nature. You are next to nothing without others and they are nothing without you. Morality is an emergent property. Let us emerge together.

 

[apophenia]

Straw Dog has said it very well.

Edward O. Wilson, the pioneer of modern sociobiology, has something to say about this in his magnum opus "Sociobiology : The New Synthesis". He says that if he was going to pick one word to describe the peculiarly human psyche, it would be ambivalence.

I actually do understand where you are coming from Sum. You are seeing something very important, but seeing it 'through a glass darkly'. I think you are seeing the biologically programmed imperative, and that is freaking you out, like discovering that you are an android or AI or something like that. This is a reality which is very hard to look at clearly, because our feeling for everything we hold dear (and everyone) is at stake, as is the possibility of believing that anyone really cares about you at all.

Just as an aside, this is a classic form of paranoia associated with marijuana and trips. Given your current state, it would be prudent to leave those things alone until you stabilise. No matter what your mates are doing on Saturday. And especially if you use any psyche meds at any point. The interactions can be extreme and not good.

At some point, assuming you get through this, it will be because you experience a love which you feel, and hopefully share, without doubts. That is the only answer to your current dilemma which will satisfy you. Logic is useless to you here, as is making demands that your emotional needs be met. Patience is the response which will actually help you. Patience with yourself, with others, and with this disturbing Black Satori you are attempting to deal with. Patience with humanness.

 

[ratikala]

dear sum of awe ,

I want to start off by saying, a lot of people believing I find the empathetic ones the pathetic ones (which I tend to do) but not because I believe empathy is wrong, I wouldn't mind anyone being selfless as long as they do not work for me and I don't work for them, but I am being sickened by all of the liars out there who claim to be selfless, altruistic people, and the REAL altruistic people (that is probably very rare) are doing it for nothing, altruism is becoming an overused philosophy, but it's not overused in practice, just in speech, many people claim to be selfless, but it shows less and less tally marks towards those who actually are, and the ones that actually are are now so hard to find, when I actually need them, when nobody is listening to me, I can't trust anyone, I don't know if anyone will listen to what I have to say anymore so I haven't said much lately, because when I say something I add no extra bits, you have to hear the whole thing to understand it completely, which is why a lot of people recently had been misinterpreting me, not only on the forum either.

I can't say I listen to others fully myself, but I certainly do not lie and say I do. I need someone to talk to desperately, but everyone I talk to is either payed to listen, otherwise acting to listen.

sometimes when one goes out into the world one finds that every one is talking and no one is listening , I see this happening all the time , even here on this site everyone appears to be here to have their say , put over their oppinion but in between those who are having their say , putting over their opinion there are a few rarer souls who simply respond to what is in front of them with true love and human kindness, and yes they will listen because they are calm enough to hear another when they speak . but for you or I to be able to feel the benifit of their company we need to be able to hear them in return which is not easy when one is feeling stressed or in need of others . it is at these times when we feel most alone .

How can you live knowing this? Everyone around you is like you, every one of your friends don't actually care how are you doing every single time they ask that, your friends don't really care that it's you birthday, they just say it to make it look like they care, they're just like you, and when the world comes falling on you like it is in the process of doing for me, you can't trust anyone to listen.

all of us human beings are still growing , still learning , and many do not know how to respond they canot know the needs of others because they do not yet understand their own needs they simply follow social constructs and behave as they see others behave .
they canot respond to you when you have fears and worries because they do not know how to deal with their own fears and worries .
and they canot listen because they simply canot relate to their own problems , so they canot relate to yours either .
but there are people who will listen and will try to offer some support because they have been through some process of personal experience and personal learning .

Lying about being altruistic is way too common, and for a little while there, I believed nobody was altruistic, but now I realize there are, but they're just hard to find.

most people would like or want to feel that they could or can be alturistic , and I am sure try to the best of their ability to be a genuine human being but it isnt easy , modern society has moulded us or conditioned us in to its way of thinking , it is fast and impersonal , I am not sure that I would like to say that people lie about their intentions it is simply that they canot yet fully uphold an ideal which they might asspire to , they get easily sidetracked , canot focus , they are still learning !
but yes , there are some who have atained their own peace who can focus , who can listen , but yes they are rare .

How do you live realizing you rarely anybody's full attention? It's like doing skateboard tricks that pro's do, and all of your friends are on their video games. Except this is becoming less for attention, my mind is crying, but until I can distinguish the liars from the listeners, my physical appearance will look as if nothing is happening.

personaly I found that once I realised that it was only natural that most people were self absorbed , after all they see and experience everything through a veil of self .
and once I realised that most people were naturaly imature , simpy because that is the natural state of human beings we are constantly growing therefore not yet fully awake . ....realising this I could forgive them for their inadequacies and forgive my self for mine ! ... this made things much easier , my dissapointment with the world began to deminish which helped with the crying inside , realising this one can relax a little , this realy helps .

Do not force yourself to listen, because that will make you lose focus as well, you either are interested or you aren't. This would eliminate quite a bit of those who call themselves altruists...

in truth we should not call ourselves anything , if we belive in it we should just do it , and if we do it well someone else will call us by that name .

we should aspire to altruism.....to say I am an alturist is simply the ego speaking !

sadly one of the hardest lessons I had to learn , and am still learning througout my life , is that at most times others canot help us as they too are struggling alone , the best freind we will ever find is within the self and that we need to work with that inner being , no one can do it for us , but we can encorage and support one another through our own experience , some times it helps to know we are all at different stages of the same fight , so my freind you are not alone , you are in good company .

hope that in some ways part answers your question

 

[Me Myself]

I have few friends, but they are true friends.

I dont tend to put too much on a relationship with someone who I know doesnt care about me. I know I can crave for attention on some moments, but beyond that, if there is not a eneral interest in the well being then I dont see the relationship as being meaningful to me. (unless it is say a work relationship or something the like)

there are moments when I get mad with people I expected more from, but sooner rather than later they remind me why I know they care and how. If they dont, then I just accept they are fun to hang out with and all and I will probably do help them if I can, but I know I cannot truly rely on them.

I guess the best way to get along with it is "know others, know self".

They are very related too.

 

[Quintessence]

How can I live knowing this? I don't wear your pair of glasses. I do not see the world through your set of glasses that tints everyone as selfish ********. Consequently, I have no problem "living" with such a dim and cynical view of people, as I don't have one. Nor do I have any problem with not being the center of the universe, because I don't have this expectation to begin with.

I don't know if you were listening before Sum, when I said this in another thread, but be mindful of how the lenses you wear shape how you see reality. You're responsible for the construction of your own set of lenses, as well as all the consequences of that way of seeing, be they good or bad. If the lenses are not serving you, it's time to get another pair.

 

[Reptillian]

We are fools to depend upon the society of our fellow-men. Wretched as we are, powerless as we are, they will not aid us; we shall die alone. We should therefore act as if we were alone, and in that case should we build fine houses, etc. We should seek the truth without hesitation; and, if we refuse it, we show that we value the esteem of men more than the search for truth. - Blaise Pascal

 

[Re-Horakhty]

Before I respond, I'd like to clarify that I only skimmed what you said. This probably would make me at least partially in the wrong in your eyes.

I honestly, truly don't mind much if people don't care about me that much. The most I ask for is a handful of people who care that I haven't hung myself. Otherwise, I may look out for myself and sometimes the others I care for. We can only be so selfless anyway, so I can only expect so much.

 

[BHSU_Student]

The psychologist Maslow said there were two types of love, deficiency love and being love. B love is mature, unselfish love. Deficiency love is based on need. I think that pretty much sums things up.

Though, if you need people to be altruistic, then that is a need is it not? Listening to another person's problems is essentially a sacrafice. It is emotionally draining to do so, especially when you know the person. But if you keep needing someone to listen to you, at the expense of another person's wellbeing, you are not being atruistic either (it is also selfish to think that you should be the center of someone's life). Hence, that is why relationships must be mutually beneficial, and not truely self-sacraficing. IMO, B love can only be achieved when you've known someone for a very long time, and the mutual nature of the relationship has long been established. In such cases, people would become self-sacrificial, because they know that you would do the same for them. The rule that the relationship must be mutually beneficial in fact, does not change, but the degree of altruism becomes greater.

It is only through perhaps luck that one finds such a relationship. Many people have intimacy issues, or prefer to see their world in terms of self only and see people as objects to be used, or are afraid to give because they don't trust that others will give back. That is just human nature, and it is does not necessarily mean that people lack altruism. The best option is to give with an open heart, not demanding that you recieve something back, but hoping that someone will eventually do the same. If not, then move onto another person until you find people that too have an open heart, and are willing to give.

Ultimately, the only one that you can truely rely on is yourself. Existentially, you are truely alone, as harsh as that may be.

 

[apophenia]

You're a hard *** buddhist Shuddhsattva.

 

[Renji]

Because I don't really require attention. I would certainly not stop existing without it. Interpersonal relationship (building friendship) is what matters.

 

[NIX]

I personally am not much concerned about whether others are concerned for/about me. I would say that I used to be much more so, but now I see that people's concern is of little consequence to me (and can actually be more of a nuisance and bother than anything). Of course I truly do appreciate it when someone who is in a position to actually help me, chooses to help me - because they personally want to help me-- because they are somehow moved internally to do so.

These tend to be occurances of the rarer variety, though I think mainly (at least in my case) because the people who truly do have a heart for me, do not have the means to help me. Unfortunately I am in no situation, of no means, to help them either. Still though, I have no interest in their being 'concerned' for me or my situation. "Concern" fixes nothing- helps nothing. If you can't actually help me change my 'objective surroundings' I would prefer you laugh with me about them as a friend, then that you engage in some kind of 'selfless concern'. (whatever that means)

Altruistic-
1. Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

I personally don't see how 'selflessness' is a good thing. Or even a possible one. But that's me.

 

[apophenia]

I personally am not much concerned about whether others are concerned for/about me. I would say that I used to be much more so, but now I see that people's concern is of little consequence to me (and can actually be more of a nuisance and bother than anything). Of course I truly do appreciate it when someone who is in a position to actually help me, chooses to help me - because they personally want to help me-- because they are somehow moved internally to do so.

These tend to be occurances of the rarer variety, though I think mainly (at least in my case) because the people who truly do have a heart for me, do not have the means to help me. Unfortunately I am in no situation, of no means, to help them either. Still though, I have no interest in their being 'concerned' for me or my situation. "Concern" fixes nothing- helps nothing. If you can't actually help me change my 'objective surroundings' I would prefer you laugh with me about them as a friend, then that you engage in some kind of 'selfless concern'. (whatever that means)

Altruistic-
1. Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

I personally don't see how 'selflessness' is a good thing. Or even a possible one. But that's me.

I like your post, but I would have to quibble about the definition of altruism ( though there are dictionaries which define it that way - but dictionaries do not ultimately define meaning, common usage does).

I don't see the need to include the word 'selflessness'. Also, given the nature of discussions of self and selflessness, the word could be construed to mean a variety of things.

I would simplify the definition to 'acting on the basis of concern for the welfare of others'. I know that I am capable of choosing an action on the basis of concern for the welfare of others. I know that I can and do make such choices sometimes even though it may cause me some stress, or aggravation, or frustration. And I may be the only person who knows that.

The idea that I should be completely 'selfless' (whatever that means) doesn't seem necessary or relevant. In fact, it would be easier to be kind and generous if one was in fact selfless. What makes generous or self-sacrificing actions noble is precisely that the personal wishes and ego must be disciplined - this is an effort.

 

[NIX]

I like your post, but I would have to quibble about the definition of altruism ( though there are dictionaries which define it that way - but dictionaries do not ultimately define meaning, common usage does).

I don't see the need to include the word 'selflessness'. Also, given the nature of discussions of self and selflessness, the word could be construed to mean a variety of things.

I would simplify the definition to 'acting on the basis of concern for the welfare of others'. I know that I am capable of choosing an action on the basis of concern for the welfare of others. I know that I can and do make such choices sometimes even though it may cause me some stress, or aggravation, or frustration. And I may be the only person who knows that.

The idea that I should be completely 'selfless' (whatever that means) doesn't seem necessary or relevant. In fact, it would be easier to be kind and generous if one was in fact selfless. What makes generous or self-sacrificing actions noble is precisely that the personal wishes and ego must be disciplined - this is an effort.

If altruism simply means making relational decisions based entirely on the focus of human empathy (concern for the welfare of another), I would say this could be helpful or not, depending.

I am definately much more the pragmatist than the altruist. My thoughts on the subject would probably take the thread wildly off topic though.

 

[apophenia]

My thoughts on the subject would probably take the thread wildly off topic though.

The ball is in your court. Go for it. I'm sure you'll be officially notified if someone has a complaint

 

[NIX]

How people feel, and what they do are two completely seperate things. I treat and regard them seperately as such. "Altruism" minus 'feelings' is simply pragmatism. Pragmatism plus feelings- can augment or diminish the helpful action.