How do you know the Quran is not the word of God?

[OrtaYol]

Can you explain which part of the above verses support your claim that the Quran states that it is impossible for salt water to mix with fresh water?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

10 out of the 12 Jesus' direct disciples (they are eye-witnesses) martyred themselves to testify the truth of Jesus.

Evidence? And what does getting killed because someone wanted you dead prove?

In the ancient world, nothing can be made more credible than the "middle man" being willing to die for what has been witnessed.

But I posit that's not why they died at all. They died because the authority figure was offended enough to kill them. They could've been talking about rocks for all I care. They could've believed in nothing.

Usually they are consistent in terms of reporting an incident by acquiring information from the eye-witness accounts of that incident. Say, in reporting a car accident they all say the same.

We can do forensics to see who's full of crap, though.

The bible is filled with eyewitness testimony despite the fact they weren't there. When they're so blatantly lying, why should we care what they think? It's like Obama hypothetically saying he witnessed the Emancipation Proclamation. No he didn't. There's no reason to think he did. He could easily be told he's an idiot.

And yet Christians are all about trusting the words of people who claimed to see an event happen before they were born or happened across town or in a secret meeting they didn't attend, etc.

We can be assured that the same information we read today from our OT Bible remain the same information as they were written some 2000 more years ago.

This isn't just you, but this has been bugging me here, on FB, and on twitter: the bible can't be 2000 years old, especially the NT, because Jesus would've been 18 and didn't even start his ministry, so there was nothing to report.

NT Bibles goes a similar route. We have plenty of ancient scrolls for us to be assured of a consistent NT. The NT scrolls may appear to be discrete, but since we have plenty of them for us humans to convey the same "gospel" consistently.

500 years from now, historians find pieces of The Prisoner of Azkaban. All the pieces are consistent. Therefore, it really happened.

Moses is an eye-witness of God as he acquired his information directly from God.

How did anyone know? He was alone when talking to God. There WERE NO eyewitnesses to most of what he said happened.

Quran was written after paper invention. Humans are capable of keeping documents after that point.

Why is paper important since we also have a ton of ancient stone, clay, etc texts?

Bible however requires the Dead Sea Scrolls as a miracle for today's humans to be assured of its consistency.

Where is that said in the bible?

In Christianity, we can't add anything to or subtract anything from the Bible as we have a Church acting as a guardian.

LOL. Who do you think commissioned changes?

The last earthly authority is the Protestants. Thus the Protestants are keeping both a correct NT Canon and a correct OT Canon.

But if Catholics have the correct NT, why do Protestants also have the correct one? Their canons don't agree.

At last, Quran is a single account document from Mohammed alone.

So the bible was not divine as long as it was just one author at that time, before any of the others?

I mean, someone has to be first, right?

You can't fix the world from afar with good intentions, to believe you can is irrational given the mountains of evidence against it.

Kinda defeats the purpose of the bible, then, doesn't it?

I want to know how the Bible says steal the rights of others
I do not want to believe in the bible or the gospel if it is called theft

Even if you deny the bible is telling the truth (like the conquest of canaan never happened as it is portrayed in the bible), it glorifies the theft of land and murder of entire populations.

Does this mean that after 2,000 years the Mexicans prove that America is part of their homeland, that's ridiculous

The funny part about all the anti-Mexican stuff is that the southwestern US WAS Mexico before it was the US. We stole their land, and the Mexicans/Spaniards stole it from the natives. I consider massive influxes of Mexicans into the southwest US to be historical irony, nothing more.

I know that Christianity is a religion of tolerance and positive

Depends on how nitpicky you want to get.

I mean, in the Old Testament, God feels kinda bad about killing off the entire planet. In the New Testament, He isn't really bothered much and that's AFTER Jesus supposedly fixed things. To a degree, one could argue the Christian God is far more vindictive and petty than the Jewish one could ever hope to be.

Take gender issues: If in Christ there is neither male nor female, how can being a nonconforming gender send you to hell? Didn't God just declare it irrelevant? Yet God will spite those people anyway because He can. It's sick.

We, as a Muslim society, do not constitute a threat to Israel or to the West.

I don't see Muslim society to be a threat to the US at all. At best, at their most damning deadliness, we lost several thousand people, which numbers were replaced probably within a month by birth and immigration. We aren't some two-bit town in the middle of the desert where killing 10 people would be devastating to the society's future. It's a cold thing to say, I know, but facts are facts. Those countries simply don't have what it would take. Russia and China are threats to the US. The Middle East only is a threat to each other. Israel, constantly whining about being destroyed, sure does put out a lot of tourism commercials bragging about how awesome everything is. I just don't see how they can argue danger when the images they themselves commission involve rich white yuppies sitting on the beach drinking martinis. If they were on the verge of utter destruction, "tourism" shouldn't be happening at all.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that Israel stole land from the Palestinians. (While I don't actually agree, for this discussion, let's say it's true.) All across the ME, Muslims have been stealing much more land from nonMuslims. What would you say if somehow someone offered to give Israel back to the Palestinians, but in exchange, Muslims would have to give back all the land they've taken in the ME?

I'm more interested in restoring ethnic populations. Religion is something that can change at the drop of a hat and shouldn't be the deciding factor. And yes, I'm in the US, and we have our own problem regarding stealing land from others. If Natives demanded their lands back TODAY, I'd be fine with putting them back in charge of their territory. It'd be impractical to move everyone around, but I don't see why we shouldn't have more Native power over their own lands. It's not like they can't argue the US isn't constantly under breach of contract anyway.

As for the Crusades, I think history shows that the Crusades were a tiny counter-attack after 400 years of violent Islamic conquest across the ME.

Let's be real. Muslims were rich on the spice trade. THAT'S what got Christianity's goat, not violence. If violence was their problem, why did they respond by being so violent they also killed innocent people on their way to kill Muslims?

I believe Islam is fundamentally divisive and inhumane.

I would just say the Abrahamics are, though really all religions have had problems looking as enlightened as they claim, to be honest.

The Quran states that it is the sperm that decides the gender of a baby

Reference? People with microscopes discovered sperm.

I would say the likelihood of primitive men producing such a book is exceedingly small.

Given that Greeks, Romans, Chinese, and others had had a loooooong time to do at least proto-science, it's a wonder why Abrahamic faiths are often so behind. That is not to say I don't disrespect Islam's participation in preserving science. It's just that we shouldn't forget they PRESERVED something that was already there.

You are judging the actions of God as if a human was committing them.

See, Jesus told his followers we would be judged as we judge others. I find no reason why God can't suffer from the same rule.

If morality is objective, then wrong is wrong no matter who does it.

For example, why is it usually wrong for a person to lie? I would suggest that it is because we cannot know the future implications of our lie, even if our lie lead to a beneficial event, that event may lead to something worse far down the road. The same reasoning could not be applied to an omnipotent and omniscient being, whether you believe in Its existence or not.

Lying is a social construct problem, not a moral one. It's "wrong" in normal circumstances. But on "Opposite Day", when evil is in control (like the Holocaust), it would immoral NOT to lie to protect innocent people from evil people.

But frequently the Quran preaches intolerance for all nonMuslims. When we take this all together, the conclusion is that the Quran is inconsistent.

How is it really any different from the bible, though? Author self-interest is a major problem in all of the Abrahamic religions.

How do you know for certain?

If all Muslims were murderers, we'd be dealing with a lot more crap than we do. If all Christians and all Jews were murderers, we'd be dealing with a lot more crap than we do. That we aren't living (so far) in the Purge franchise means there are plenty of people who just sit on the couch and watch tv.

 

[Notanumber]

If all Muslims were murderers, we'd be dealing with a lot more crap than we do.

As little as 0.001% is more than enough, but the West is not as bad as Pakistan yet.

Hundreds of Islamist extremists rally in Pakistan to demand death sentence for Christian woman convicted of insulting Prophet Mohammed

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/10/...-christians-call-for-prayer-muslims-for-riots

 

[Augustus]

Given that Greeks, Romans, Chinese, and others had had a loooooong time to do at least proto-science, it's a wonder why Abrahamic faiths are often so behind. That is not to say I don't disrespect Islam's participation in preserving science. It's just that we shouldn't forget they PRESERVED something that was already there.

To be fair, they didn't simply 'preserve' existing knowledge, they significantly advanced and developed the overall body of scientific understanding.

Scholars in the Islamic Empires built on Persian, Greek, Chinese, etc. knowledge and made numerous significant scientific advances. The same was true in medieval Europe.

 

[j1i]

I agree that sometimes the Quran talks about how Muslims should defend themselves. And sometimes the Quran talks about how to live peacefully with nonMuslims. But frequently the Quran preaches intolerance for all nonMuslims. When we take this all together, the conclusion is that the Quran is inconsistent.

There is a point I think is important for all people who read the Quran to understand. From the perspective of cognitive science, it is extremely unhealthy that the Quran preaches intolerance towards nonMuslims over 500 times. No matter how peaceful the reader is, this repeated message will cause the reader stress and confusion. The reader might not be consciously aware of this stress, but it is there.

Hello my brother
Thank you for your noble feelings and pleasant participation. I know that I am your sincere and faithful brother who seeks to deal with all the values of honor

This depends on the environment on which they live and the nature of life, customs and traditions

Muslims who lived in East Asia Malaysia, Indonesia and China are peaceful as well as Africa as well as Oman
The first US Embassy was in Oman in 1840 and My area is shared with Oman that time

In the Arabian Gulf there are urban and Bedouin

the Bedouins are the most evil people and the Qur'an mentioned this
quran chapter 9:97
The Desert-Arabs are the most steeped in disbelief and hypocrisy, and the most likely to ignore the limits that God revealed to His Messenger. God is Knowing and Wise.

They tried to kill the Prophet Muhammad several times
They broke his teeth and wounded his head with the sword

The Bedouins are the high value in the Gulf
So far the Bedouin behavior does not accept the Islamic religion directly
Extremism and extremism are more than Islam
If you are invited to choose, you will say: "Islam is one hundred times more merciful than the Bedouins."

We civilized people who live in cities are open and practicing Islam, just like Christians
A religious society that loves good and does humanitarian work

But the Bedouin community is harsh and loves vengeance, vengeance, and the most difficult
I do not mean every Bedouin is a criminal but this is the prevailing nature of them
Therefore, people make mistakes in mixing Bedouin and urban people
The practices of the Bedouins transcend Islam, but break it

The Prophet Muhammad said
The camels were created from demons, and behind every camel is a devil
Therefore, the Prophet was keen to perform the process of ablution and purity and prayer in a place far from the camel areas

This behavior will also be prevalent among some Jews who use camels, who were also nomads
It appears as aggressive, racist, chaotic, and arrogant

note
This does not mean that the camel is the only defendant and that he is wicked
Just to clarify there are other factors

I specifically loved a Bedouin girl since 2002 and her family refused to marry me because they were fanatics
The girl become now 36 years old when Im 38 a bit old and Note that the Islamic religious preacher asked the girl's family to approve her marriage to me but they refused

They do not listen to the Koran but break the laws of the Koran
Their practices are not of Islam
This is the intensity you find is a frequency of environment, customs and traditions, not Islam

So far she is waiting for me
I did not leave her, but until now I waited for her and these are noble feelings I learned from the Qur'an
Honesty and good work and human to be merciful
Taking into account the feelings of others beautiful


Although Islam gives you the opportunity to marry four women and this is to fit with the owners of wealth so as not to spoil the daughters of society in the conduct of relationships forbidden through money
Marriage gives a woman more value than she is an adulteress and does a forbidden relationship in secret
Therefore, Islam allows marriage to be plural, so that it is also social solidarity
It is a selection process and you should be satisfied and 99% of the marriage is only one


with respect
In the end, I do not care about the Scriptures except to take the truth from them
I just want to clarify the positive side in Muslims to encourage their acceptance and coexistence with them as one of them

GOD bless you

 

[OrtaYol]

1. Reference? People with microscopes discovered sperm.


2. Given that Greeks, Romans, Chinese, and others had had a loooooong time to do at least proto-science, it's a wonder why Abrahamic faiths are often so behind. That is not to say I don't disrespect Islam's participation in preserving science. It's just that we shouldn't forget they PRESERVED something that was already there.


3. See, Jesus told his followers we would be judged as we judge others. I find no reason why God can't suffer from the same rule.

4. If morality is objective, then wrong is wrong no matter who does it.


5. Lying is a social construct problem, not a moral one. It's "wrong" in normal circumstances. But on "Opposite Day", when evil is in control (like the Holocaust), it would immoral NOT to lie to protect innocent people from evil people.

1. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation


2. They didn't just preserve they expanded upon.. a lot. Those ancient civilisations you mentioned also preserved and expanded upon what others had done before them. It's pretty much the story of humanity.


3. God does not suffer from the same flaws and shortcomings we do so to judge Him by the same standards wouldn't be fair.

4. You have to first understand why something is wrong.


5. That is why I tactically used the word "usually" there.

However it could be argued even in the situation you described that lying is simply the lesser evil.

 

[icehorse]

In the end, I do not care about the Scriptures except to take the truth from them

I would like everyone to live in peace and have rich, rewarding lives.

IMO, your scripture is an anchor that makes it harder, not easier, for you to live a rewarding life.

 

[j1i]

I would like everyone to live in peace and have rich, rewarding lives.

IMO, your scripture is an anchor that makes it harder, not easier, for you to live a rewarding life.

God bless you my friend and thank you my dear to participate
You are a good man and your morals are high
And thank you this I just love to participate and feel positive
Do not be ashamed of the criticism of Muslims hahaha


It is therefore important for someone who has a religion and has a book
Take responsibility for educating the community for this book

There are also some (few only) white racists in America, although they are Christians and Christians against blacks

While here I mean my area because of good education and wisdom
We live peacefully (white black) muslims and jews

note
My grandfather tells me that the Jews lived among us in their areas and were united by the conditions of life together

Saturday was a vacation they had and they had their own graveyard
They moved to Iran and then to Israel
My grandfather keeps Collectibles the Star of David logo and one jewish jewels of wumen inside him, a magical talisman he bought and a box in the star of David, but because of our lack of experience we sell it in the shop
I am not a collector

Note
More than 50 percent of the Jews in Israel came from areas where there is Islamic rule
The reason is dogmatic and not because of racism

We come to the most important side
The most important brother is the environment that holds education

When I last traveled, my mother hugged me and told me
Religion is all morality, if someone preceded you before your ethics so he is better than you in religion

The problem is that the Islamic education was previously weak and the simple ones put their trust in racist people (who have nothing to do with Islam)
As time went by, governments became aware of this. America had contributed greatly to the encirclement of Muslim racists and agitators

But we must also know that we also have positives over the ages

It means that we should not be given zero for human benefit

Islam has become so weak that the mirror does not have the authority to exercise its religious activity as a Hijab like mary and this is a non-human work

with respect

The most important thing I care about in Islam is one thing
They believe in one God
The Lord in the traditional theory of Abraham, Moses and Noah
(^ _^)

 

[icehorse]

I also appreciate the good conversation.

The most important thing I care about in Islam is one thing
They believe in one God

To me there is a HUGE difference between how most people actually live, and what their scripture says. I think most people are kind.

But most scripture is not kind. So I think any religious person who is kind, suffers from what scientists call "cognitive dissonance". This means that they are holding two or more conflicting ideas in their brains at the same time.

The person is kind, the scripture he believes in is unkind.

That's really the problem I'm addressing. Just so you know, I feel this way about most scripture, not just the Quran. I believe the OT and NT are also very unkind books.

 

[j1i]

I also appreciate the good conversation.



To me there is a HUGE difference between how most people actually live, and what their scripture says. I think most people are kind.

But most scripture is not kind. So I think any religious person who is kind, suffers from what scientists call "cognitive dissonance". This means that they are holding two or more conflicting ideas in their brains at the same time.

The person is kind, the scripture he believes in is unkind.

That's really the problem I'm addressing. Just so you know, I feel this way about most scripture, not just the Quran. I believe the OT and NT are also very unkind books.

Thank you brother from the bottom of my heart
I enjoyed the dialogue very much
I also wanted to engage in ideas and understand each other
We have many who love peace and want to live in peace away from extremism but also away from obscene, sinful

We want to make our generations as good as Jesus, Moses, David, Muhammad, and all the righteous
We want generations of good and clear away from smoking, drugs and adultery
We want pure generations to think about human feelings and love for cruelty

GOD bless you
amen

 

[Muffled]

I'd say if you use god to justify acting violently you are an excellent example of why religion is so completely useless.

If a person thinks he can use God he is badly mistaken.

 

[Muffled]

Because Christianity sets specific parameters for what constitutes the Word of God, and what is false prophecy.

Galatians 1:8 in particular automatically disqualifies the Quran, as the person involved is someone who claims to have had an encounter yet preaches a gospel contrary to the one given.
Matthew 7:5 specifically speaks about taqiyya, people who seem friendly but actually want to hurt you.
1 John 4:1-6 says you can't trust prophets blindly, but have to test what they say. In fact, it gives a method to do so. Those who believe that Jesus is not the Savior and did not die for your sins are at odds with the gospel.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 says there are people who pretend to be like Christians since even Satan disguises himself, but their judgement will come from how they act.

I believe the Qu'ran does not preach a different gospel.

 

[Muffled]

The Quran claims its perfection (and clarity!), many times.

I believe the Word of God ha to be perfect but one must understand that God reveals what He wishes to reveal to whom He wishes to reveal it.

 

[icehorse]

I believe the Word of God ha to be perfect but one must understand that God reveals what He wishes to reveal to whom He wishes to reveal it.

If all that you say is true, then based on the evidence, we must conclude that your god is not kind. And scripture is consistent with my conclusion.