How do I say this?

[Quetzal]

If any abrahamic sacred text is true, and you wanted to support your statements (by debate, by exchange of information, by evangalizing to someone who does not share your faith), what can you use besides the Torah, Quran, and Bible that will help you support what you say?

That is the tough part. No matter what commentary you read, it all loops back to the same text. It quickly becomes circular without any empirical, reliable evidence to support any of the theories.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is the tough part. No matter what commentary you read, it all loops back to the same text. It quickly becomes circular without any empirical, reliable evidence to support any of the theories.

Im sure ot can be done, I guess

 

[arthra]

What other books besides, say the Book of Mormon, anything written from Bahaullah, etc (what other books that are not connected to your faith) can you use to support your side (regardless of what the debate may be about)?

The revealed words of Baha'u'llah most often relate to historical events and situations since our Faith is only about a hundred and seventy years old there are numerous accounts.... You have accounts by enemies of our Faith as well as friends... government accounts and so on. Newspaper articles and media. So our history is recent and supported by various sources. One online source is called the Baha'i Library Online

http://bahai-library.com/

and it's broken down as follows Primary Sources, Secondary Sources...archives from books, newspapers, various media.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The revealed words of Baha'u'llah most often relate to historical events and situations since our Faith is only about a hundred and seventy years old there are numerous accounts.... You have accounts by enemies of our Faith as well as friends... government accounts and so on. Newspaper articles and media. So our history is recent and supported by various sources. One online source is called the Baha'i Library Online

http://bahai-library.com/

and it's broken down as follows Primary Sources, Secondary Sources...archives from books, newspapers, various media.

I'd have to really look through this. It's very thourough. Are there sources on this website that are not related to your faith still valids your faith's sacred text validity?

For example, if I said this math book on Arithmetic and I want to proove that this book states real facts without using other articles, books, etc which refer to this same book (and author) and without refering to the author of it. (So I can't use Arithmetic materials of any sort)

I might use philosophy and learn about scientists who made basic math into a great art.

I could use my own fingers to prove the validity of some of the questions in the math book.

I don't see that in Sacred Texts I know of. Everything kind of helps itself confirm it's validity. That is fine among the practitioners and people interested, but other people, it seems circular. Archeologists are trying to find Noah's Arch. If they do, that's a better example of proof outside sacred text (meaning we dont need to know anything about any sacred text to confirm the Arch's physical existence)

Kinda understand?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The revealed words of Baha'u'llah most often relate to historical events and situations since our Faith is only about a hundred and seventy years old there are numerous accounts.... You have accounts by enemies of our Faith as well as friends... government accounts and so on. Newspaper articles and media. So our history is recent and supported by various sources. One online source is called the Baha'i Library Online

http://bahai-library.com/

and it's broken down as follows Primary Sources, Secondary Sources...archives from books, newspapers, various media.

Wow. You were raised with these practices? It would be difficult for a convert, I'm sure.
http://bahai-library.com/holy_days_calendar_students

 

[arthra]

Wow. You were raised with these practices? It would be difficult for a convert, I'm sure.

I wasn't "raised with these practices". Baha'i communities function around our calendar ... So we have Feasts every nineteen days named after an attribute of God.. We observe Holy Days according to our calendar beginning with the vernal equinox or Naw-Ruz.... We also observe a Fast in the last months of our year. So in time these practices are observed and they become part of our lives...

 

[arthra]

Are there sources on this website that are not related to your faith still valids your faith's sacred text validity?

As I wrote earlier

http://bahai-library.com/

Is a good resource to learn about the primary and secondary sources of the Baha'i Faith... You can find a variety of sources.

Type in a search for anti-Baha'i material and you'll see featured polemics against the Faith as well as rebuttals. So it's one of best ways to learn more about Baha'i Faith other than simply reading the primary sources which include revealed sacred tablets.

I'd have to really look through this

Yes I would encourage it!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As I wrote earlier

http://bahai-library.com/

Is a good resource to learn about the primary and secondary sources of the Baha'i Faith... You can find a variety of sources.

Type in a search for anti-Baha'i material and you'll see featured polemics against the Faith as well as rebuttals. So it's one of best ways to learn more about Baha'i Faith other than simply reading the primary sources which include revealed sacred tablets.



Yes I would encourage it!

Which links that are not bias? I went through them earlier before I asked you, but given the nature of the site, it is subjective. Point me in a specific direction. There is a lot of materialx expertsx documentaries, biographies here from a Bahai view to find without my bias any place where there is an objective view to your faith.

I know its like picking at a lock that can never be opened. Im assuming at least you given me something.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@arthra

Ah! Good example.

My ancestors exist where I stand. They are with me now. They are me. When I worship, I become them. I become the earth. And on...

One major proof of this is

1. I have a chronology of my family going back as far as I can
2. I have my living family with with whom give me their accounts
3. I have my intermediate family who all of us know about spiris literally exiting in our own homes and property (witness, personal experience, hearsay)
4. I have other people who say they have the same experiences (yet we are not the same people so we do not know that our experiences are alike)

I have all of this but it means nothing to an atheist who believes nothing supernatural

Objectively, he would need

1. Other witnesses outside my family since families and communities feed of each others beliefs

2. Outside stories that are exactly like my claims. So if I say something exist, it has to elsewhere without a connection between the two.

Im not dismissing your link. It is a good link and a lot of info Id like to read over. If you can find some things that are not directly refering to your faith but has validity in its relations to your faith, Id like that.

If an atheist asked me to show evidence, I cannot show him the earth and my family pictures. I cant show him what others said about my experiences. Its bias. I have to show him withot the eyes of my faith.

One day I can figure it out. I was hoping someone beat me to it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is the tough part. No matter what commentary you read, it all loops back to the same text. It quickly becomes circular without any empirical, reliable evidence to support any of the theories.

One day. One day.

 

[arthra]

Point me in a specific direction. There is a lot of materialx expertsx documentaries, biographies here from a Bahai view to find without my bias any place where there is an objective view to your faith.

We'll be as objective as possible Carlita! There's history from the early nineteenth century... News articles... Primary and secondary sources... material both for and against...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We'll be as objective as possible Carlita! There's history from the early nineteenth century... News articles... Primary and secondary sources... material both for and against...

I had to re-read my OP. I dont know if the question can be answered, though. Please don't run off. I will take a specific question about the Abrahamic text that has been debated for centuries and I will compare it to what you have and what I believe. Please let me know if you dont want to read it; I don't like conversation drop offs at all.

http://bahai-library.com/momen_abdulbaha_concept_oneness
I don't know if the OP can be answered from a Bahai perspective since not many Abrahamic faiths accept the truths of their sister and brother religions.

However, according to the web site you gave me, it gives proof that Bahallauh exist. He is a human being, of course I wouldn't doubt that. http://bahai-library.com/Articles These are refering to a lot of things every other religion in the world does, charity, peace treaties, and so forth. It's not proof that Bahai (and any other faith) is true (Which is the point of the OP). In other words, it's showing the results of the faith not prooving true (OP question) that the faith in and of itself is true.

Comparsion: If I gave you a web site www.carlita..com and it had different links say

1. Slavery
2. Carlita's family
3. The history of the World War 1 and 2
4. Biographies of the Smith name
5. How Sara Smith traveled the world to set up peace treaties and she talked with Person X and Y.

It all centers around me. It's not objective. All this showed you was

1. The Smith family existed
2. There was such thing as world wars
3. The history of Slavery
4. History of our name
5. Public records of peace treaty letters

It doesn't talk about how my ancestors can and do speak with me. It doesn't say anything about their existing beyond their passing. It doesn't even proove that they were even related to me unless I did a DNA check. Supernaturally, these things don't mean anything to anyone else but the people who believe it. (Me)

Yeah, I'm going through the link and it's telling me the history of what Bahaullah did. I'm not questining his existence, what he did, and whether or not the religion is good or not. I'm questioning if your faith (not the actions of the people who believed in it) can be prooven true without using anyone and thing related to your faith to do so.

For example: If I tried to proove my religion is true without using my family, their history, their biographies, their stories, their relations with others, their jobs, and places they have made business contracts with... if I took the military out, and everything that connects my family together and to me, what do I have left to proove they A. existed and B. you know they did from your objective point of view not taking me at my word.

I cant do that. The only religions I know who can are religions based on world peace, humanism, some paganism, religions that are based on individual rather than community morals, etc.

Is Bahai more of a world peace religion or is the foundation based on the supernatural?

If it's based on world peace, then of course, we can proove that true by many many examples on that web site. However prooving the supernatural?

How does one do that without refering to his or her own belief system and their views about it?

Is it even possible for anyone to do this?

 

[arthra]

Is Bahai more of a world peace religion or is the foundation based on the supernatural?
If it's based on world peace, then of course, we can proove that true by many many examples on that web site. However prooving the supernatural?
How does one do that without refering to his or her own belief system and their views about it?

Baha'u'llah around 1867 or there abouts He addressed "Tablets" to the rulers at that time such as Napoleon III, Csar Alexander, The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, Queen Victoria. Basically He called on them to renounce war and start building the foundations for a world parliament as well as establishing an international court of arbitration to resolve disputes... Later after the passing of Baha'u'llah His oldest Son Abdul-Baha travelled to Europe and the United States around 1911-1912 and attended a Peace Conference in Mohonk New York... so yes, the Faith is very much committed to the establishment of world peace and the abolition of racism and religious prejudices. Baha'is are non-partisan and opposed to violent extremes of war, terrorism, etc.

We as Baha'is also accept the reality of the spiritual life as it is inside us and we believe in the immortality of the soul... Our belief is that God as one and the same God as worshipped by the major religions. As to miracles we believe miracles can occur for those who experience them however as proofs we do not rely on them.

We also work toward improving relations between the religions and have representatives at Inter-faith gatherings both on the local and international levels..such as at the World Parliament of Religions.

 

[Jiddanand]

I hate repeated debates and I was thinking of making this a poll so there won't be the same old debate just the answer.

Playing devil's advocate and hopefully believers will answer please.

If any abrahamic sacred text is true, and you wanted to support your statements (by debate, by exchange of information, by evangalizing to someone who does not share your faith), what can you use besides the Torah, Quran, and Bible that will help you support what you say?

What other books besides, say the Book of Mormon, anything written from Bahaullah, etc (what other books that are not connected to your faith) can you use to support your side (regardless of what the debate may be about)?

I think there's nothing left that is not discussed in Bhagwat Geeta.
The language is different but concepts are not.
There are translations available as well.
I hope you will find there what you are looking for.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think there's nothing left that is not discussed in Bhagwat Geeta.
The language is different but concepts are not.
There are translations available as well.
I hope you will find there what you are looking for.

Yeah and no. That's okay. If someone asked me the same question about my faith, I couldn't do it without some bias or subjectiveness involved. However, I didn't want to corner myself with the word can't. I just like thinking outside the box sometimes. Makes conversations more stimulating.