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How do i know i'm ready?

Darth Brooks

Gunslinger For Set
Nope not at all. :D

I was just seeking to understand what you were saying.
Sorry if my wording seemed to indicate otherwise.

I somehow doubt I'm in keeping with certain western LHP "norms" mySelf.
(which sometimes makes me feel like an outsider,
in the only place I feel I belong at all.)
Half the questions I ask others
turn out to be me "probing" mySelf anyway.

Meant no offence.

No offense taken at all. I hope I have helped. :)
 

blackout

Violet.
I find that the Setian desire to khepher into a divine state that is no longer dependent on the material world, and that can transcend death, bears much more than a passing resemblance to Tantric goals. I also find that Set's nature - as the wild, rebellious, abrasive, lustful, and destructive Thunder God of Egypt - is entirely consistent with the vamachara principles of confronting the dark, brutal, sensual, filthy, and obscene aspects of life, and of using them as a "springboard" into the higher spiritual realm. After all, Osiris would never have risen from the dead and become King of the afterworld, had he not first been drowned and dismembered to pieces by Set.

This was most helpful.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions.
 

Daelach

Setian
or if you were charged and convicted of aggravated assault and have done nothing to remedy the facts-this would exclude affiliation automatically.

So I guess someone who even killed his brother (and not in self defence!) could not become a member. Poor Set..!
 

Daelach

Setian
Well the point is: Set is exactly the god of disruption and of social disorder. Being Setian means to value this way over social standing. LHP adepts used to be outsiders for good reasons. I understand the practical problems of running an organisation that would be accepting criminals, especially with a so-perceived "Satanic" background.

However, Set is exactly the force breaking with laws, and that is what the myth of killing Osiris was about. If you just want to play nice children, this will prevent you from becoming anything like Set. As long as you put your social standing within the herd so high, you will not quit being a part of said herd.

"Canst thou give unto thyself thy bad and thy good, and set up thy will as a law over thee? Canst thou be judge for thyself, and avenger of thy law?
Terrible is aloneness with the judge and avenger of one's own law. Thus is a star projected into desert space, and into the icy breath of aloneness." (Nietzsche, Zarathustra)

There is no abolute need to run around killing, of course. But a wolf obeing to the law of sheep will never become whom he was born to be.
 

Darth Brooks

Gunslinger For Set
I see your point, and in some ways, I agree. For me it comes down to antinomianism, which is far more than just spiritual dissent. It goes back to the Gnostic idea of justification by gnosis, rather than by faith. While evangelical Christians will say that good works alone do not ensure eternal salvation, a classic antinomian will say that "evil" works alone do not ensure eternal damnation. Of course, this notion was never intended to justify unethical behaviors in and of themselves. Rather, an antinomian in the original sense believes that a true "pneumatic" or spiritual believer is incapable of doing anything that will compromise his or her ascension, simply by virtue of having gnosis. This contrasts with the "psychic" or purely intellectual believer, who has not had a direct experience of the higher spiritual realities, and who only accepts whatever he or she is instructed to believe. One might extrapolate this to say that from an antinomian perspective, a truly righteous person will do what is right for right's sake alone, without concern for reward or punishment - e.g., as opposed to worshiping a God to reach heaven or avoid hell, or not murdering someone just to avoid being jailed.

Set is exactly the god of disruption and of social disorder. Being Setian means to value this way over social standing.

I agree. "Social standing," while not entirely irrelevant, should be secondary to forward movement. But it's also true that "social standing" can be put to Machiavellian use.

However, Set is exactly the force breaking with laws, and that is what the myth of killing Osiris was about.

Indeed, Set's role in this tale would seem to suggest "breaking the law." But when we take into consideration the fact that Osiris' death led to his resurrection and the possibility of an afterlife for the common people (as opposed to just royalty), the "immoral" implications of Set's action become questionable. What would appear to be a grievous crime on the surface becomes a necessarily forceful part of the creative process. In fact, all of Set's "crimes" are actually instigations that force Creation to continue. (E.g., the larva must die for the beetle to take its place, one day must end for another to begin, etc.) By the conventional Late Period understanding, Set appears to be nothing more than an angry, loud-mouthed troublemaker whose sole purpose for existence, like Apep, is to promote isfet. Yet the deeper implications of His role indicate that His actions actually promote, rather than oppose, ma'at, and that they oppose isfet - which would render Creation inactive and stillborn if left unchecked. While it is clear that Set is not "a nice little child," He isn't what I would call a criminal either. IMO, He does the right thing that nobody else has the guts to do, even though He knows He'll be ostracized for it.

If you just want to play nice children, this will prevent you from becoming anything like Set. As long as you put your social standing within the herd so high, you will not quit being a part of said herd.

"Canst thou give unto thyself thy bad and thy good, and set up thy will as a law over thee? Canst thou be judge for thyself, and avenger of thy law?
Terrible is aloneness with the judge and avenger of one's own law. Thus is a star projected into desert space, and into the icy breath of aloneness." (Nietzsche, Zarathustra)

There is no abolute need to run around killing, of course. But a wolf obeing to the law of sheep will never become whom he was born to be.

I don't think it's a matter of "obeying" or even of "disobeying." I think that when the Temple of Set's leadership says membership will be denied "if you were charged and convicted of aggravated assault and have done nothing to remedy the facts" (to quote Sireal), it's really a matter of protecting the Temple's interests. Some amount of "social standing" might be a supplemental bonus for such caution (or even a shield against outside interference), but I doubt it's the point of central interest. If it were, Temple members probably wouldn't be using "inverted" pentagrams or the term "Prince of Darkness." Just using that symbol and that term is enough to get you written up in a book about "The Danger of Cults." But then again, I'm a lone outsider looking in, so I can't really speak for them. I can only say that if I really wanted social acceptance, I'd probably be a Christian. (Or a Shirley MacLaine enthusiast, at the very least.)
 
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Kenaz

I Am
Well the point is: Set is exactly the god of disruption and of social disorder. Being Setian means to value this way over social standing. LHP adepts used to be outsiders for good reasons. I understand the practical problems of running an organisation that would be accepting criminals, especially with a so-perceived "Satanic" background.

However, Set is exactly the force breaking with laws, and that is what the myth of killing Osiris was about. If you just want to play nice children, this will prevent you from becoming anything like Set. As long as you put your social standing within the herd so high, you will not quit being a part of said herd.

"Canst thou give unto thyself thy bad and thy good, and set up thy will as a law over thee? Canst thou be judge for thyself, and avenger of thy law?
Terrible is aloneness with the judge and avenger of one's own law. Thus is a star projected into desert space, and into the icy breath of aloneness." (Nietzsche, Zarathustra)

There is no abolute need to run around killing, of course. But a wolf obeing to the law of sheep will never become whom he was born to be.

Daelach,

There are a lot of "is"'s in your post, and not many "to me"'s in it. Your perception, understanding, and view of Set and it's meaningful application in one's life is not an absolute nor is it anything but your own personal view of it. Yours is no less correct or wrong than anyone else and how they wish to work with the concepts they come up with from studying Set and how they apply them in their life. This is no different than with the common foundational concepts within the organization called the Temple of Set.

There are certain areas of your personal views that I hold as well, and some I do not. This does not make either of us any more less of a "Setian", and that goes for everyone.


Sincerely,
JWG
 

Daelach

Setian
Of course, this notion was never intended to justify unethical behaviors in and of themselves.

Which raises the question of how which ethic can be justified. In the West, it is just Xtian ethic, and overcoming that is clearly enough part of any LHP. It boils down to what experiences one is willing to make, and what price he is willing to pay for them.

One might extrapolate this to say that from an antinomian perspective, a truly righteous person will do what is right for right's sake alone

But said person would have to find out right and wrong by himself, a worthwile but difficult task.

But it's also true that "social standing" can be put to Machiavellian use.

Certainly, if a person wants to make such an experience and therefore needs social tools.

the possibility of an afterlife for the common people

Certainly not, because the body still was central, and an according treatment was, even in the New Kingdom, only affordable to the rich. As in any feudal society, there were about 10% richt, and 90% were excluded from that immortality. But I personally think that they were not concerned about that because they did not see themselves as individuals.

What would appear to be a grievous crime on the surface becomes a necessarily forceful part of the creative process.

Which, in turn, also could be said about any human crime (-;

He does the right thing that nobody else has the guts to do, even though He knows He'll be ostracized for it.

And that's what those in power use to call crime. Or maybe terrorism. Especially if the offender does not succeed.

it's really a matter of protecting the Temple's interests.

That is what I meant talking of the practical problems. And that is why historically, LHP adepts have chosen not to run organisations in plain daylight.

If it were, Temple members probably wouldn't be using "inverted" pentagrams or the term "Prince of Darkness."

Just talking of such things, without any offensive action, is covered by the constitution. So far, not that dangerous.


@ JWG: Of course we can resort to "let anyone have his own Setianism", and we'd end up with Setianism getting void of all meaning, just as is has happened with Satanism. I will, of course, tolerate all Setian views. But I will not accept all kinds of Setianism since this would not be tolerance any longer, this would be disinterest.
 

Darth Brooks

Gunslinger For Set
Certainly not, because the body still was central, and an according treatment was, even in the New Kingdom, only affordable to the rich. As in any feudal society, there were about 10% richt, and 90% were excluded from that immortality. But I personally think that they were not concerned about that because they did not see themselves as individuals.

Granted, most Egyptians were not wealthy. But the fact remains that under the Osirian cult, the idea of an afterlife for the common person became a theological possibility, which was my point. The cult popularized the idea of a "Judgment of the Dead," which had previously been unknown in Egyptian religion. The king was thought to automatically get an afterlife simply because he was king, but the commoner had to prove - or magically trick Osiris into thinking - that they hadn't sinned to the point of deserving spiritual extermination by Ammut. This is well-established among Egyptologists. And if Set hadn't killed Osiris in the first place, this wouldn't have become a possibility for the commoners - which may be just one of many reasons why Set was described as being like a "royal kinsman" who "behaves as a man of the people." (Dream Book, XIXth Dynasty.)

@ JWG: Of course we can resort to "let anyone have his own Setianism", and we'd end up with Setianism getting void of all meaning, just as is has happened with Satanism. I will, of course, tolerate all Setian views. But I will not accept all kinds of Setianism since this would not be tolerance any longer, this would be disinterest.

Well that is your right. But the way I see it, it's not really a matter of "letting" anyone have his own Setianity. It's more a matter of everyone already having their own Setianity, and there's nothing anyone can do to change it.
 

Valor

Active Member
How does the ToS regard mortality... For instance, if one were on thier death bed, is your aim akin to mine where i would look at my family and loved ones and say to myself that "I wouldn't have done anything different, no regrets"?

I ask only because i'm guessing (hoping) you within the ToS don't stress an afterlife.
 

Valor

Active Member
I notice in this thread that a person was denied affiliation with the TOS due to a criminal record and yet the application form claims that a criminal record does not automatically exclude one from membership. Does the TOS go on a case by case basis and if so what are the critaeria for judgement?

Don't even get me started on this my friend...lol... they accept people with drug charges, but fail to acknowledge what violences and ruined families drugs produce! This alone makes me wonder if they fail to see this...what else are they missing? How could they not do the math concerning drugs and the body of destruction they cause mentally, emotionally, physically and economically on EVERY level... drugs don't discriminate: lower, middle, upper class... conservitive or liberal.. Democrat or Republican.. stupid or intelligent... Satanic or Christian!

I too have a non violent crime (no drugs)... in 47 other states it would have been thrown out of court with a tad of probation...but since i live in a commonwealth, even though they dropped charges, the state automatically picks up the case.

I put myself through college, read (own) almost thier entire reading list, practice the Dark Arts on many levels and started a successful buisness and have an extremely ballanced family and foundation... all in the hopes of joining the ToS one day...i consider myself very intelligent and anchored... but appartently it's not good enough for the ToS because i goofed up 14 years ago?...

The ToS is ... :sleep:
 
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I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Don't even get me started on this my friend...lol... they accept people with drug charges, but fail to acknowledge what violences and ruined families drugs produce! This alone makes me wonder if they fail to see this...what else are they missing? How could they not do the math concerning drugs and the body of destruction they cause mentally, emotionally, physically and economically on EVERY level... drugs don't discriminate: lower, middle, upper class... conservitive or liberal.. Democrat or Republican.. stupid or intelligent... Satanic or Christian!

I too have a non violent crime (no drugs)... in 47 other states it would have been thrown out of court with a tad of probation...but since i live in a commonwealth, even though they dropped charges, the state automatically picks up the case.

The ToS is ... :sleep:
Yup, Massachusetts loves to get their prosecution on lol. The same happened to me with an assault and battery dangerous weapon case. Let's not go demonizing drugs though, people do them because they want to, and that's nobody's business but their own.
I don't see why any kind of criminal record would keep a person from practicing a philosophy though, or why you even have to fill out an application just to say you agree with someone's ideals, especially for a LHP philosophy. Having to be accepted by a LHP group is a direct contradiction of the philosophy. Those who go by LHP philosophy are in it for Self, not to gain the acceptance of anyone else.
 

Valor

Active Member
Yup, Massachusetts loves to get their prosecution on lol. The same happened to me with an assault and battery dangerous weapon case. Let's not go demonizing drugs though, people do them because they want to, and that's nobody's business but their own.
I don't see why any kind of criminal record would keep a person from practicing a philosophy though, or why you even have to fill out an application just to say you agree with someone's ideals, especially for a LHP philosophy. Having to be accepted by a LHP group is a direct contradiction of the philosophy. Those who go by LHP philosophy are in it for Self, not to gain the acceptance of anyone else.

Like i said... don't get me started on the ToS. I'm pretty upset about it. I know i have a lot to offer and share within the walls of the Temple and may Xeper on a more intimate and functioning level.

Concerning "acceptance?".. I believe when we surround ourselves with like minded individuals we are more inclined to learn and progress. Thats why. Understand?
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Like i said... don't get me started on the ToS. I'm pretty upset about it. I know i have a lot to offer and share within the walls of the Temple and may Xeper on a more intimate and functioning level.

Concerning "acceptance?".. I believe when we surround ourselves with like minded individuals we are more inclined to learn and progress. Thats why. Understand?
I understand where you're coming from and agree with you 100%, but gathering with people who have like minds and having to go through a process of elimination just to be associated with them are two very different things. I gather with other individuals who share thoughts similar to mine every week at building sessions. Everyone is welcome to come to them though; nobody is ever told they're not allowed to associate themselves with our belief.
 

Daelach

Setian
Set had no help from the other gods; he had to do his things alone. Set was known for many things, but certainly not for socialising. So in a certain way, if you are experiencing the lonely side of Setianism, you may be closer to Set than if you had some Setian social network club. You are experiencing what it means to be in the desert. And in the desert, there are only the hard ones - because the weak won't make it out there.
 

Valor

Active Member
Set had no help from the other gods; he had to do his things alone. Set was known for many things, but certainly not for socialising. So in a certain way, if you are experiencing the lonely side of Setianism, you may be closer to Set than if you had some Setian social network club. You are experiencing what it means to be in the desert. And in the desert, there are only the hard ones - because the weak won't make it out there.

Thank you Daelach...You put a smile upon my face. We "hard ones" are often lonely, yes, but Setian Sentinels tempered in the desert heat.

I just recieved a pm from a fellow like-minded Initiate here who was saying that it's time for something "New"... thoughts?
 
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Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I too have a non violent crime (no drugs)... in 47 other states it would have been thrown out of court with a tad of probation...but since i live in a commonwealth, even though they dropped charges, the state automatically picks up the case.

I put myself through college, read (own) almost thier entire reading list, practice the Dark Arts on many levels and started a successful buisness and have an extremely ballanced family and foundation... all in the hopes of joining the ToS one day...i consider myself very intelligent and anchored... but appartently it's not good enough for the ToS because i goofed up 14 years ago?...

Well, I understand the ToS situation from their view in that they are already controversial enough. Like Church of Satan they're going to ditch anyone with a criminal history in order to prove the integrity of the organization. Yes, I'm aware in this case that it's probably fate but it probably doesn't change anything from an administrative perspective. Obviously there is no way for them to know whether or not you would decide to repeat this incident. It's certainly not personal!

There is nothing preventing you from developing practices of your own based on Setian themes, and honestly that's what most Setian's are doing from anything I can see on the web or in print. If you need an organization for whatever reason you may look up the Set-Typhonian branches of the O.T.O. as they are very close to these as well. You could get started by reading through all of the Temple of Set related publications and score a copy of The Greek Magical Papyri by Hans Betz would be a pretty damn good start. I find myself incompatible with many of the practices of the O.T.O., but without question it's very similar. That information about the material is just from my own interests by the way and that's really all I can speak of. But also read up and be as versed as possible on psychology, mythology, and the human equation. I think it would be much worse if you decided to not undertake your development along these lines just because you cannot play 1st violin in an orchestra... You have much more to gain than recognition beginning with the moment you've decided to walk the path.

I'm sure you would be missing only a few ToS specific teachings, but you still would have a very good grounding and likely would make progress anyway. Not that I'm against ToS in fact quite the opposite, but I haven't had the opportunity to speak with anyone from the organization in detail and decide if I want to participate. Only reason I haven't signed up already as I haven't found anyone to speak with directly about it. I'm just not the type to send an anonymous unsolicited application out without being invited.
 

Valor

Active Member
I think it would be much worse if you decided to not undertake your development along these lines just because you cannot play 1st violin in an orchestra....

:) I'm a LHP Practitioner my friend... as you must gain by treading this path as well, By nature we want what we want and know what we want refusing to settle for less. Am i wrong?

You have much more to gain than recognition beginning with the moment you've decided to walk the path..

I don't want recognition, my aim is to advance and share my studies/skills. This doesn't have anything to do with boasting or a 2$ pendant swinging from my neck. From the years of knowlege i've learned concerning the ToS, i've found that it is the best outlet for me to refine and meet or exceed my goals. I'm sure i have more information in my personal archives on the ToS than half their Adepts. Not to sound pretentious, but i own and reread 80% of their reading list + so many more it's pathetic.

I
I'm sure you would be missing only a few ToS specific teachings, .

How could you know?, I'm hoping your right, sincerely.:)

but you still would have a very good grounding and likely would make progress anyway. Not that I'm against ToS in fact quite the opposite, but I haven't had the opportunity to speak with anyone from the organization in detail and decide if I want to participate. Only reason I haven't signed up already as I haven't found anyone to speak with directly about it. I'm just not the type to send an anonymous unsolicited application out without being invited.

Please speak with Sireal or Magister Roberts. They are good people and lucky for us only a P.M. away.
 
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EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Well, I understand the ToS situation from their view in that they are already controversial enough. Like Church of Satan they're going to ditch anyone with a criminal history in order to prove the integrity of the organization.
I wouldn't say it has anything to do with integrity. My position is that the Temple and what it teaches, is not meant for those that cannot uphold the laws of our/your governing system. I understand there are insidious increments of these infractions, but I would believe that the Temple would rather not deal with such decisions and has put into place a no felony clause which remedies this.

I am not sure if there are ways around such a situation but if your desire is to affiliate with the Temple then personally I would leave no stone unturned in my pursuit to do so.

If you need an organization for whatever reason you may look up the Set-Typhonian branches of the O.T.O. as they are very close to these as well.
O.T.O. is a Thelemic group, Thelema is NOT LHP.


A neb kekui Set, ami per et em kher
EM
 
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