How do Baha’is see atheists?

[Trailblazer]

I just don't see your messenger being good enough. If a God exists I can't see it being a bigot, meaning anti-gay. That is a huge disappointment, and my morals require me to reject anyone whose morals are that low.

Baha'u'llah was not anti-gay and He was not a bigot. That is why you won't find that in His Writings.

The Baháʼí Faith has an emphasis on what it describes as traditional family values,[1][2] and marriage between a man and a woman is the only form of sexual relationship permitted for Baháʼís.[3] With an emphasis on chastity and restraint outside of matrimony, Baháʼí practices exclude premarital, extramarital, or homosexual intimacy.[4][5] Baháʼí institutions have taken no position on the sexual practices of those who are not adherents,[6] and Baháʼís have been discouraged from promoting or opposing efforts to legalize same-sex marriage.[7]​

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The scriptural basis for Baháʼí practices comes from the writings of Baháʼu'lláh (1817–1892), the faith's founder, who forbade fornication, adultery, and sodomy.​

Baháʼí views on homosexuality - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Trailblazer]

So could it be that Baha'u'llah was the bigot, not God? If so, why would God pick a bigot for a messenger? None of this makes sense.

Baha'u'llah was not anti-gay and He was not a bigot. That is why you won't find that in His Writings.
Many Baha'is struggle with the Baha'i Laws but it does not prevent them from being Baha'is.

 

[The Hammer]

How do Baha’is see atheists?


With eyes

 

[The Sum of Awe]

That is the purpose, but that does not mean everyone is going to recognize the messenger and know the message within any given time frame.

To say that God is to blame is completely illogical because God is infallible so God cannot make any mistakes. Moreover, God is All-Knowing and All-Wise so God knows the best way to deliver a message to humans. By contrast, humans are fallible so humans can and do make mistakes. So if Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and atheists, or those of other religions, do not recognize Him as such then they have made a mistake. We all make mistakes since nobody is perfect.

God is currently a character, as there's no hardcore proof of His existence. If a character is said to be infallible, it is fair to criticize why they appear to be fallible (as seen in how Baha'u'llah's word has only reached 8 million out of almost 8 billion people).

The fault cannot lie in the means (sending the messenger) since God cannot be at fault because God is inerrant. The expectation that more people would have recognized Baha'u'llah by now is a false expectation since there is no reason to think they would, given all the impediments in their way.

Below are the seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah yet.
None of them have anything to do with God or Baha'u'llah. All of them are related to human behavior.

1. Many people have never heard of Baha’u’llah, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, once the message has been delivered the Baha’is are not to blame if people reject the message.​

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2. But even after people know about Baha’u’llah, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if He was a Messenger of God or not.​

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3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.​

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4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion” or a new Messenger of God.​

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5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.​

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6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.​

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7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.​

Those are all rational reasons why people have not heard the message. God should have known this would be the turn out, though, right?

Obviously there are going to be people who don't believe the messenger, that is unavoidable, but if God spoke to people directly there would be no way for anyone to know it was actually God speaking. Some people would not believe it was God and some people might think they were having auditory hallucinations.

Isn't that what people already currently believe about Baha'u'llah?

If God spoke to everyone directly people would interpret what God said with different minds so they would not all understand the message the same way. It is no different with the messenger. People interpret what He wrote using their own minds so there are some slight differences in understanding what He wrote. However, there are no 'added issues' of using a middleman except that people have to recognize that middleman as a Messenger of God. That is the biggest issue that I see.

If they did not write it down, how would they remember it next week, next year, 10 years from now? There is a reason why Baha'u'llah wrote scriptures, since they will be needed for generations to come for at least the next 1,000 years, until another Messenger appears.

Perhaps God could have made knowledge of Him akin to that of knowledge that you need water to stay hydrated.

 

[F1fan]

Baha'u'llah was not anti-gay and He was not a bigot. That is why you won't find that in His Writings.

The Baháʼí Faith has an emphasis on what it describes as traditional family values,[1][2] and marriage between a man and a woman is the only form of sexual relationship permitted for Baháʼís.[3] With an emphasis on chastity and restraint outside of matrimony, Baháʼí practices exclude premarital, extramarital, or homosexual intimacy.[4][5] Baháʼí institutions have taken no position on the sexual practices of those who are not adherents,[6] and Baháʼís have been discouraged from promoting or opposing efforts to legalize same-sex marriage.[7]​

​

The scriptural basis for Baháʼí practices comes from the writings of Baháʼu'lláh (1817–1892), the faith's founder, who forbade fornication, adultery, and sodomy.​

Baháʼí views on homosexuality - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

if Baha'i is just a social club, sure you can ban gays like some groups ban Jews or minorities, like the KKK. But you are saying Baha'u'llah is a messenger for God. This is absolute truth, not just local prejudiced people. The writings aare supposed to apply to all of humanity as a dictate from God, yes?

 

[PureX]

Christians do not believe that they are divine. They believe that only Jesus was divine.

Christians beieve that they have the divine spirit within them. Which means they are capable of being divine if they allow themselves to embody that spirit with their minds, hearts, and actions.. That is the way of Christ.

Christians believe that man only has one nature, a lower sinful nature and that is why Christians believe they needed Jesus to die on the cross for them.

This is weak interpretation. Jesus died because we killed him. We killed him because we did not like the revelation and promise that he embodied. And by "we" I mean all of us. As we all have that selfish "it's all about me" nature within us. But Jesus did not die, and neither did his revelation and promise. And so we are all now facing a choice. To allow that divine spirit within us to 'have us', or to kill the divine within us and live in selfishness.

I do not believe that we can understand God without a mediator between ourselves and God and that is what Christianity teaches.

We cannot understand God at all. We just think we can, in our arrogance.

I do not believe we can receive 'communication' from God through the Holy Spirit, but I believe we can be guided by the Holy Spirit.

And by "we", that's all of us. There are no special divine messengers. Although the truth can come from anyone's mouth at any time. If we are speaking from that divine spirit within us.

All humans have a divine nature as I said above, but no ordinary human has the same kind of a divine nature that the Messengers of God have.

I see no reason to believe that, and I do not believe that. Show me someone that claims to be a "divine messenger" and I will show you a delusional phony.

So you don't believe that Jesus received a special message from God? You believe he was just an ordinary human being?

Jesus is a character in a mythical religious story. I understand and respect the ideals the story represents. I know nothing of supposed man-god religious Christians worship.

 

[Trailblazer]

God is currently a character, as there's no hardcore proof of His existence. If a character is said to be infallible, it is fair to criticize why they appear to be fallible (as seen in how Baha'u'llah's word has only reached 8 million out of almost 8 billion people).

Since there are many 'logical reasons' why Baha'u'llah's word has only reached 8 million out of almost 8 billion people, I think it is illogical to question God's infallibility.

My position holds. Only humans can make mistakes. If God can make mistakes then God is not God.

Those are all rational reasons why people have not heard the message. God should have known this would be the turn out, though, right?

Of course God knew, because God is All-Knowing so God has perfect foreknowledge.

Isn't that what people already currently believe about Baha'u'llah?

Yes, it is true that most people do not believe that God spoke through Baha'u'llah, not uness they are Baha'is.

Perhaps God could have made knowledge of Him akin to that of knowledge that you need water to stay hydrated.

I suppose He could have if He had wanted to, but God only does what He wants to do, which is why He didn't do that.
I believe that God wants everyone to find the knowledge themselves, by searching for it, not because God gave it to them.
If God did not make it easy, that is because God did not want it to be easy.

 

[Trailblazer]

if Baha'i is just a social club, sure you can ban gays like some groups ban Jews or minorities, like the KKK. But you are saying Baha'u'llah is a messenger for God. This is absolute truth, not just local prejudiced people. The writings aare supposed to apply to all of humanity as a dictate from God, yes?

Yes, the writings are supposed to apply to all of humanity as a dictate from God.
Gays are not banned from membership in the Baha'i Faith. They are members, and as members the same laws apply to them as apply to all the other Baha'is.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, the writings are supposed to apply to all of humanity as a dictate from God.

Then the prejudice against gays is bigotry. God is a bigot according to Baha’u’llah.

Gays are not banned from membership in the Baha'i Faith. They are members, and as members the same laws apply to them as apply to all the other Baha'is.

Not banned but limited to being equal. That is bigotry.

 

[Trailblazer]

Christians believe that they have the divine spirit within them. Which means they are capable of being divine if they allow themselves to embody that spirit with their minds, hearts, and actions.. That is the way of Christ.

Fair enough. Christians are all over the board in their beliefs but that is probably what many Christians believe.

This is weak interpretation. Jesus died because we killed him. We killed him because we did not like the revelation and promise that he embodied. And by "we" I mean all of us. As we all have that selfish "it's all about me" nature within us. But Jesus did not die, and neither did his revelation and promise. And so we are all now facing a choice. To allow that divine spirit within us to 'have us', or to kill the divine within us and live in selfishness.

I fully agree. Humanity is now facing a choice, to allow that divine spirit within us to be manifested or to live in selfishness.
How do you think that is going to come about with no religion, one by one, or don't you have a vision of hope?

We cannot understand God at all. We just think we can, in our arrogance.

Again, I agree. We cannot understand God at all. All I believe we can understand is the message that comes through the Messengers of God.

And by "we", that's all of us. There are no special divine messengers. Although the truth can come from anyone's mouth at any time. If we are speaking from that divine spirit within us.

I believe that there are special divine messengers, but I also believe that the truth can come from anyone's mouth at any time if we are speaking from the divine spirit within us.

I see no reason to believe that, and I do not believe that. Show me someone that claims to be a "divine messenger" and I will show you a delusional phony.

You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe, as do I.

If I show you the claims of Baha'u'llah all you will show me is a man who 'you believe' is a delusional phony, but you will never be able to prove that is what He was, not any more than I can prove that He was a Messenger of God. Religious claims are not subject to being proven or being disproven. Rather, whether we believe them or not is a matter of belief or personal opinion.

Jesus is a character in a mythical religious story. I understand and respect the ideals the story represents. I know nothing of supposed man-god religious Christians worship.

So you don't believe that Jesus existed or did anything that is recorded in the New Testament?

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

I think there is a fundamental problem with this question.

An atheist is a person who believes in atheism. A Baha'i is someone who believes in the Baha'i Faith. Let's separate the atheism from the atheist and the Baha'i Faith from the Baha'i. Most people would agree that atheists and Baha'is are far more interesting than their individual, respective religions. What you should ask instead is, "What do Baha'is think of atheism?" or "What do atheists think of the Baha'i Faith?" That is what Trailblazer is really asking here, what the religious or irreligious think of the belief systems, not individuals who believe in those systems.

I don't need to read anymore. Atheists think the "evidence" the Baha'i Faith offers isn't valid. Baha'is believe in the unity of God, something which the ideology of atheism prevents from happening. But when it comes to people within those religions, virtually anyone can be any religion and believe anything they want in those religions -- even religions that espouse a creed. My best friend is a Mormon that drinks green tea and doesn't find Jesus important or special. He does it for the community, not for the commodity of beliefs.

Let's talk about atheism. Not atheists. Let's talk about the Baha'i Faith. Not Baha'is. It's the only way we can continue this discussion.

 

[F1fan]

I think there is a fundamental problem with this question.

An atheist is a person who believes in atheism.

False. Atheism is non-theism. There’s nothing to believe. It’s just a category of people who aren’t religious.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

False. Atheism is non-theism. There’s nothing to believe. It’s just a category of people who aren’t religious.

I disagree. Atheism and nontheism are different concepts. Atheism is a disbelief in God, that is supported by either faith, evidence or both for their disbelief in God. An atheist is someone who believes in atheism. A nontheist is someone who believes in nontheism. And if this is what you have a problem with F1fan, you are completely missing the point of my post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then the prejudice against gays is bigotry. God is a bigot according to Baha’u’llah.

Bigotry: the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: bigotry

God is not a bigot since God does not dislike gays because they have a different way of life. God dislikes any way of life that is contrary to His Laws, whether it is a homosexual or a heterosexual.

Prejudice: an unfair and unreasonable opinion or feeling, especially when formed without enough thought or knowledge:
prejudice

There is no prejudice against gays. The same laws regarding sexual behavior apply to both homosexuals and heterosexuals.
There is nothing unfair or unreasonable about God's Laws. They apply equally to both heterosexuals and homosexuals.

Not banned but limited to being equal. That is bigotry.

Homosexuals are treated as equals. That is not bigotry.

 

[loverofhumanity]

As a Baha’i I try and avoid classifying people by their mindsets, beliefs or attitudes. We humans are all the leaves of one tree and the waves of one sea is my belief. So to me it doesn’t matter what you think or believe because you are my human family regardless and our beliefs should not separate us or cause us to see each other as strangers. It’s ok to discuss or debate the ‘topic’ but the individual is always a fellow human being no matter what they understand or think. And we have no right to judge others or be self righteous and think we know more or better. We all can learn and share from each other.

 

[F1fan]

I disagree. Atheism and nontheism are different concepts

No, they mean the same thing. The basic and broad definition is not being a theist. There are forms of atheism that you can refer to in specific ways, like weak or strong atheism. These have different degrees of thinking behind them.

Atheism is a disbelief in God, that is supported by either faith, evidence or both for their disbelief in God

Not entirely true. There is no faith involved at all. And it is the lack of evidence for gods that leads critical thinkers to defer to the logical default that the claims of gods are not true. I’ll bet there are god concepts you don’t think are true.

An atheist is someone who believes in atheism. A nontheist is someone who believes in nontheism.

Neither of these statements are true. I explained this already.

And if this is what you have a problem with F1fan, you are completely missing the point of my post.

If your point is making false statements then I get it. otherwise you are mistaken.

 

[F1fan]

Bigotry: the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: bigotry

God is not a bigot since God does not dislike gays because they have a different way of life. God dislikes any way of life that is contrary to His Laws, whether it is a homosexual or a heterosexual.

Prejudice: an unfair and unreasonable opinion or feeling, especially when formed without enough thought or knowledge:
prejudice

There is no prejudice against gays. The same laws regarding sexual behavior apply to both homosexuals and heterosexuals.
There is nothing unfair or unreasonable about God's Laws. They apply equally to both heterosexuals and homosexuals.

Homosexuals are treated as equals. That is not bigotry.

The definitions you cite explain how Baha’i is a bigoted religion. The religion makes prejudicial policies against gay people, and i see no moral justification for it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Speaking of atheists, I know this is not the place for it, but I have to share my happy news with y'all!

I certainly do not have anything against atheists and in fact I picked an atheist from among all the other men on the dating site I am on because he looked and sounded intelligent. I only later found out that he was an atheist when I looked at his profile. Then we got messaging back and forth, and I came to find out he has as PhD in Environmental Science and was an Oceanographer for 25 years. None of the other men I see have any of these qualifications. They are all really boring. He also likes hiking and biking and he likes cats, all of which are my interests. When I told him my extensive educational background he said I would probably think he was boring and I told him he was anything but boring! I don't even think I deserve anyone as smart as he is and he is not haughty about it at all.

I just talked to my brother today who lives in Colorado and has been a Baha'i for 55 years and told him about this man and he did not think a Baha'i could be married to an atheist. I told him I would have no problem being married to an atheist and I might even rather be since I am not an 'active' Baha'i doing all of the activities that most Baha'is do, and I am not sure I ever want to be. Anyhow, I am probably getting overly excited but this is the very first man I have met on any dating site in almost a year that I have had any real interest in. He is just a really nice person on top of everything else, and being nice is what matters most of all, not what one believes or disbelieves.

 

[Trailblazer]

The definitions you cite explain how Baha’i is a bigoted religion. The religion makes prejudicial policies against gay people, and i see no moral justification for it.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but I don't want to argue about it so I consider this a dead subject.
I will only say one more thing: God needs no justification for the laws He puts in place because God is not answerable to humans.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What makes you think there is a better way?
How else could God communicate everything He communicates to Messengers such that everyone in the world would have access to that information?
The method of communication is not faulty. The errors and the abuses are on the part of the people who receive, or fail to receive, the messages.

I find your blindness on this point quite astounding -- I really do.

If I really know someone very well, I can find the way to communicate what I want to them with great clarity. Even if I don't know you very well, most of the time I can make myself quite clear by the simple expedient of asking you to repeat back what I said, but in your own words. If you get it wrong, then I know I got it wrong, and I can reframe the statement.

My understanding of God (at least the Abrahamic one) is that He knows everybody (and everything) very well indeed. Thus, there is no bar at all to His making His message absolutely clear to everyone, individually.

Something else we all know -- because of all the experiments that have been conducted to show it -- is that information that is given to one person, and then "passed on" to others in an ever-expanding circle, gets garbled. Surely, one would expect an omniscient deity to be aware of that little foible of human cognition. After all, He is supposed to have made us.

But of course, in another sense, I do find your blindness quite understandable -- you've been told "this is how it is, and you must believe it, even if it doesn't make any sense." And so you do.

See, there are those of us who believe when we are presented with information that we can assess, evaluate, judge and verify. And others who, sheep-like, follow where they are led unquestioningly.

So, I guess I haven't answered your question in this thread, but rather turned it around back at you, to "how do atheists see Baha'is (and other religionists)?"