How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Trailblazer]

Zechariah 14:4 refers to Yahweh standing on the mount of olives.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

God does not have feet that can stand.

 

[Skywalker]

God does not have feet that can stand.

Zechariah 14:4 refers to God because God and the Messiah are the same person. Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 according to those who reject the deity of Christ

Zechariah 14:1-5 (DRB) Behold the days of the Lord shall come, and thy spoils shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 And I will gather all nations to Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken, and the houses shall be rifled, and the women shall be defiled: and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the rest of the people shall not be taken away out of the city. 3 Then the Lord shall go forth, and shall fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is over against Jerusalem toward the east: and the mount of Olives shall be divided in the midst thereof to the east, and to the west with a very great opening, and half of the mountain shall be separated to the north, and half thereof to the south. 5 And you shall flee to the valley of those mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall be joined even to the next, and you shall flee as you fled from the face of the earthquake in the days of Ozias king of Juda: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him.

Acts 1:1-12 (DRB) The former treatise I made, O Theophilus, of all things which Jesus began to do and to teach, 2 Until the day on which, giving commandments by the Holy Ghost to the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up. 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion, by many proofs, for forty days appearing to them, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

4 And eating together with them, he commanded them, that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but should wait for the promise of the Father, which you have heard (saith he) by my mouth. 5 For John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence. 6 They therefore who were come together, asked him, saying: Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 But he said to them: It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power: 8 But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments. 11 Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven.

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day's journey.

Question
According to those who reject the deity of Christ (that He is "the LORD"), are these two passages speaking of two separate Lords?

(EDIT: Since it doesn't seem to be clear: both mention a Lord returning to, or landing upon at least, the mount of Olives, probably an apocalyptic or end times event; that's the perceived connection. If Jesus is Yahweh, both refer to the same Lord. If not—well, that's the whole question.)

 

[Trailblazer]

Zechariah 14:4 refers to God because God and the Messiah are the same person. Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 according to those who reject the deity of Christ

Zechariah 14:4 cannot refer to God because the Messiah is a person, and God is not a person.

 

[Skywalker]

Zechariah 14:4 cannot refer to God because the Messiah is a person, and God is not a person.

They are the same being. Satan is described as a personality because a person is a human being.

 

[Trailblazer]

They are the same being. Satan is described as a personality because a person is a human being.

God is not the same being as the Messiah because God is not the Messiah. The Messiah was a man.
I do not believe that Satan was a human being.

 

[Skywalker]

God is not the same being as the Messiah because God is not the Messiah. The Messiah was a man.
I do not believe that Satan was a human being.

The messianic prophecy Zechariah 14:4 refers to Yahweh.

Behold, a day of Yahweh comes, when your plunder will be divided within you. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city will be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go out into captivity, and the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in two, from east to west, making a very great valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. You shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azel; yes, you shall flee, just like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Yahweh my God will come, and all the holy ones with you. It will happen in that day, that there will not be light, cold, or frost. It will be a unique day which is known to Yahweh; not day, and not night; but it will come to pass, that at evening time there will be light.

 

[1213]

The story of Cain: Gen 4:7, ...if you improve you will be forgiven...

That says: "If you do well, will it not be lifted up? If you don't do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it."

...nothing about salvation. But, perhaps you have some different meaning for salvation. I have understood it means one’s sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the judgment that would come because of sin.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

So, do you think there is something that you can do to make your sins forgiven?

 

[Trailblazer]

The messianic prophecy Zechariah 14:4 refers to Yahweh.

Behold, a day of Yahweh comes, when your plunder will be divided within you. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city will be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go out into captivity, and the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then Yahweh will go out and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in two, from east to west, making a very great valley. Half of the mountain will move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. You shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azel; yes, you shall flee, just like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Yahweh my God will come, and all the holy ones with you. It will happen in that day, that there will not be light, cold, or frost. It will be a unique day which is known to Yahweh; not day, and not night; but it will come to pass, that at evening time there will be light.

Zechariah 14:4 is a Messianic prophecy and it refers not to God but to the Manifestation of God who will come in the station of the Father, He who is also referred to as the Lord of Hosts and the Lord of all names. The Lord of all has come because the Lord has been manifested on earth.

“The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272

“O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting. Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210

 

[Skywalker]

Zechariah 14:4 is a Messianic prophecy and it refers not to God but to the Manifestation of God who will come in the station of the Father, He who is also referred to as the Lord of Hosts and the Lord of all names.

“The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272

“O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting. Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210

It would be blasphemous to call Jesus the Lord of hosts and the Lord of all names if he wasn't God. Only God is the Lord of hosts and Lord of all names.

 

[Trailblazer]

It would be blasphemous to call Jesus the Lord of hosts and the Lord of all names if he wasn't God. Only God is the Lord of hosts and Lord of all names.

That is only according to your understanding. According to my beliefs the Lord of hosts and Lord of all names was Baha'u'llah who was a Manifestation of God, not God incarnate.

 

[Skywalker]

Zechariah 14:4 is a Messianic prophecy and it refers not to God but to the Manifestation of God who will come in the station of the Father, He who is also referred to as the Lord of Hosts and the Lord of all names. The Lord of all has come because the Lord has been manifested on earth.

“The fear of God is the shield that defendeth His Cause, the buckler that enableth His people to attain to victory. It is a standard that no man can abase, a force that no power can rival. By its aid, and by the leave of Him Who is the Lord of Hosts, they that have drawn nigh unto God have been able to subdue and conquer the citadels of the hearts of men.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 272

“O kings of the earth! He Who is the sovereign Lord of all is come. The Kingdom is God’s, the omnipotent Protector, the Self-Subsisting. Worship none but God, and, with radiant hearts, lift up your faces unto your Lord, the Lord of all names. This is a Revelation to which whatever ye possess can never be compared, could ye but know it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 210

The Messiah was God incarnated, who died on the cross for our sins because the price had to be paid.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Messiah was God incarnated, who died on the cross for our sins because the price had to be paid.

Jesus was the Messiah who sacrificed himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

Baha'u'llah was the Messiah of the last days in which we are now living who came to regenerate, unify and save humanity.

“Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus was the Messiah who sacrificed himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

Baha'u'llah was the Messiah of the last days in which we are now living who came to regenerate, unify and save humanity.

“Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

Jesus was the second person of the Godhead. Why would there need to be someone else be the Messiah?

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus was the second person of the Godhead. Why would there need to be someone else be the Messiah?

I do not believe in the Godhead. God is one.
There needed to be a future Messiah because there was more work to do and Jesus was not planning to return and do it.
(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Skywalker]

I do not believe in the Godhead. God is one.
There needed to be a future Messiah because there was more work to do and Jesus was not planning to return and do it.
(John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

How is this different from Judaism teaching that there will be a Messiah Ben Joseph and a Messiah Ben David? I believe that those teachings are replacements for Christ, similar to how Santa Claus is a replacement for Christ. There is so much evidence that Christ is real so people come up with replacements.

 

[Trailblazer]

How is this different from Judaism teaching that there will be a Messiah Ben Joseph and a Messiah Ben David? I believe that those teachings are replacements for Christ, similar to how Santa Claus is a replacement for Christ. There is so much evidence that Christ is real so people come up with replacements.

There is no replacement, only imaginary figures. That's what happens when people reject Christ and interpret scriptures to suit their beliefs.

 

[Skywalker]

There is no replacement, only imaginary figures. That's what happens when people reject Christ and interpret scriptures to suit their beliefs.

What makes Bahulllah being the Messiah any less interpreting scriptures to fit one's own beliefs than Santa Claus or Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David?

 

[shunyadragon]

How is this possible?

Not sure what you sarcastic point here is. First, Judaism could reasonable could not accept the Anglo-Saxon Roman Christianity version of Jesus Christ.

The other fact is that ancient religions by their nature do reject all other religions of the world, because of their own attachment to their ancient tribal religion. As far as the existence of God, if God exists, this fundamental contradictions and disconnect with reality pretty much makes the God of the different conflicting religions is not the Universal God of all Creation.

 

[Skywalker]

Not sure what you sarcastic point here is. First, Judaism could reasonable could not accept the Anglo-Saxon Roman Christianity version of Jesus Christ.

The other fact is that ancient religions by their nature do reject all other religions of the world, because of their own attachment to their ancient tribal religion. As far as the existence of God, if God exists, this fundamental contradictions and disconnect with reality pretty much makes the God of the different conflicting religions is not the Universal God of all Creation.

How is Jesus Christ anglo saxon? The Catholic Church is a denomination and luke all denominations the people who teach are fallible.

 

[Trailblazer]

What makes Bahulllah being the Messiah any less interpreting scriptures to fit one's own beliefs than Santa Claus or Messiah Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David?

Big difference..... I do not need to refer to the Bible to know that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah because I have the Writings of Baha'u'llah and all that He accomplished in His mission which matches up with the Bible prophecies.

I also do not have to interpret the Bible to fit Baha'ullah; all I have to do is look at what Baha'u'llah actually did to fulfill the prophecies in the Bible. There is no Messiah Ben Joseph or Messiah Ben David who have actually shown up so it is just what Jews imagine the Messiah will be, not a reality.