How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

If you are quoting how the trinity isnt in the bible, I agree. The conversation is I understand how it is in the bible. Im able to see it both ways. It does speak of the trinity. You just have to change your point of reference as Ive done. If we cant discuss multiple views, we are at a draw. Thats boring.

@Tony Bristow-Stagg

A Baha'i is also not a follower of the Trinity. So maybe you are the right person to talk to.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I cant say you are not christian. I can say christianity does not teach anything about bahaullah (again). I dont know what christianity you believe. Ive read the bible and practiced three denominations and second hand JW and visited countless churches and have yet to hear bahaullah either in concept, spirit, literally, or firgurally. To me, what you believe is not what jesus taught. That is my experience and Opinion Not stated as fact.



Bible equals apostles. Apostles equsls church. Church said whats inspired. You all believe what the church put together. If you want to believe in the god of the bible, quote the torah not jesus' apostles. (What you quote is from the apostles. Jesus wrote nothing.)

It is because you haven’t yet discovered Baha’u’llah in the Bible that you state He is not mentioned in it but millions have discovered Him in the Bible as I did. Just because Christians en masse have not yet discovered Him does not mean they won’t.

It’s a process of awakening and some flowers bloom earlier than others. I’m confident Christians by the millions will enter the Cause of Baha’u’llah in time because He’s mention prolifically in the Bible to those who with insight.

Jesus had only 12 disciples, the Bab 19. The course of time spread the teachings of Jesus all over the world as the teachings of Baha’u’llah are being adopted everywhere.

The Church had possession of the Word of God but not it’s authoritative interpretation which led to Christianity instead if being one Faith becoming a house divided. Misinterpretations led eventually to wars and division.

This was expressly against what Christ instructed..

Ephesians 4:11-13 NIV
[11] So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, [12] to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up [13] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

So Christ had to return again to unite religion and bring about one Faith..

John 10:15-16 NIV
[15] just as the Father knows me and I know the Father---and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

This passage speaks about those who are if ‘other sheep oens’, other religions and that when Christ returns He will unite all religions into ‘one flock’ or religion.

So although the church were the custodians of the Word of God they were unable to do as Jesus instructed and keep the believers united in Faith. Instead there arose divisions and now there are over 40,000 sects.

So now is the age of unity when harmful differences which have caused hatred, bloodshed and wars will be reconciled and unity and live will once again prevail amongst the religions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg if Baha'is accept both Christianity and Islam, and both the Bible and the Koran- that could be problematic. Because Muslims don't believe John 1 like Christians do. Even in calling Jesus a begotten god. This violates the pure of Islam, which the Koran expounds in it's view on Jesus- that the word of Allah created him. Not that Jesus himself is Allah's word.

@Buddha Dharma

Personally I see that the Writings of Baha'u'llah gives us the required balance to both schools of thought. History has shown that the challenge of a New Faith, is problematic to the Faith one is born an raised in, or has already accepted. There is no avoiding this situation, it is the world we live in, always changing and thus it is part of the choices we must make.

Baha'u'llah has clarified the relationship between God and His Messengers and when the Bible and Koran are read with this understanding, many new frames of reference are found, that are also very compatible with those scriptures.

"Blessed souls — whether Moses, Jesus, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius or Muhammad — were the cause of the illumination of the world of humanity. How can we deny such irrefutable proof? How can we be blind to such light?" – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 346.

It is but One God that this Light comes from, confirming both what the Bible and Koran say, albeit with a new frame of reference.

So the Christian comes to Know that Christ is a Messenger from God, as was Muhammad, both came forth from Our One God. With the Mirror analogy, we can know that the attributes of God are perfectly reflected in them. While not God they are all we can know of God.

This is a big subject and many writings available.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

f you are quoting how the trinity isnt in the bible, I agree.

Agreed.

The conversation is I understand how it is in the bible. Im able to see it both ways. It does speak of the trinity

As we can also do. We can see why they have made a doctrine of the Trinity.

You just have to change your point of reference as Ive done. If we cant discuss multiple views, we are at a draw. Thats boring.

Frame of Reference is the key. But who's do we use, or own often proved flawed understandings, or the understandings of the Great Beings?

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is because you haven’t yet discovered Baha’u’llah in the Bible that you state He is not mentioned in it but millions have discovered Him in the Bible as I did. Just because Christians en masse have not yet discovered Him does not mean they won’t.

This is your belief. Once you see differences you'd know how the two do not add up not just by me but half those who came this thread. Unless you're saying I read the bible wrong, the bible speaks of god not bahaullah. Any person who reads the bible without bias can tell you the same as telling you two and two is four without liking math.

It’s a process of awakening and some flowers bloom earlier than others. I’m confident Christians by the millions will enter the Cause of Baha’u’llah in time because He’s mention prolifically in the Bible to those who with insight.

This is why you don't have christian beliefs. Christians are One body of Christ and Christ only. You seperated yourself from the very people you would need to agree with in order to believe scripture as a christian not bahai. I can say you have not yet realizes the true Christ but that's one thing bahai and Christians have in common: not accepting the Fact people believe differently and Believe it if not just don't express it. Are you saying I wasn't a real christian? If bahalluah is inline with Christ is that what you are saying?

Jesus had only 12 disciples, the Bab 19. The course of time spread the teachings of Jesus all over the world as the teachings of Baha’u’llah are being adopted everywhere.

Bahai belief. I'm not bahai. You have to use language I understand. I still see no similarities.

The Church had possession of the Word of God but not it’s authoritative interpretation which led to Christianity instead if being one Faith becoming a house div

They are the authoritative people. Without the apostles no bible as you know it. Othorodox catholic not roman.

This passage speaks about those who are if ‘other sheep oens’, other religions and that when Christ returns He will unite all religions into ‘one flock’ or religion.

11] So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, [12] to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up [13] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ

Body of Christ are Christians not pagans.

[15]just as the Father knows me and I know the Father---and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

This is true only if bahai accepts Christ and him only not bahaullah. Bahai are pagans (as am I and all other gentiles) until we accept Christ only.

So although the church were the custodians of the Word of God they were unable to do as Jesus instructed and keep the believers united in Faith. Instead there arose divisions and now there are over 40,000 sects.

So every Christian is lost because their faith is divided over details (but not the basics)?

40,000 sects means nothing to Christ and Christians faith. You just called them all misguided but then you accept diversity???

So now is the age of unity when harmful differences which have caused hatred, bloodshed and wars will be reconciled and unity and live will once again prevail amongst the religions

Once you encourage Christians to follow their own faith, unity will start because you would not judge them for their division but help each other respect diversity.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I honestly wouldnt be surprised. Dont mention bahaullah though. That would cut the conversation short.

Many Christians struggle with other faiths, that is true.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Frame of Reference is the key. But who's do we use, or own often proved flawed understandings, or the understandings of the Great Beings?

I dont see it as flawed. Who's?

Ours.

De ja vu. Just thought of the food analogy.

I don't see peoples religions as flawed. We part here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is why you don't have christian beliefs. Christians are One body of Christ and Christ only.

Now this is the nitty-gritty of what it is to be a Lover of Christ.

“Christ” comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning “anointed one” or “chosen one.” This was as confirmed by Jesus the Christ to Peter in Matthew 16:13-18 "13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church...."

Jesus was the Christ, anointed by God with the Holy Spirit, Muhammad is also the Christ, as are all the Great Beings, 'Christ', of the Holy Spirit.

So it can be said to be One in the Body of Christ, is being One in God and all His Anointed Ones.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Church put The Bible together. Here we go: How are the bible books put together. Without The Church, you'd have a lot of written "spiritual" books more than 66 books I bet.

"It was actually not until 367 AD that the church father Athanasius first provided the complete listing of the 66 books belonging to the canon."

Why do christians, muslims, and bahai look to the bible as if it were from anyone other than The Church?

Thre link is one-sided but good info nonetheless.

It certainly is a one sided link. The books were chosen because that's what God wanted! That may be true, but I would have appreciated a more thoughtful analysis.

Wikipedia has a somewhat more detailed and considered account.

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

Keep in mind that Muslims reject the NT canon as they think it contradicts the Quran. The Jews of course don't believe one verse of the NT refers to Jesus.

However the main reason the Abrahamic Faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i) value written scripture is that it provides an authentic and authoritative account of the life and teachings of their Founder. The texts of the Buddhists and Hindus can't be considered reliable to the same extent, and many Buddhists and Hindus don't feel that matters too much.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Many Christians struggle with other faiths, that is true.

Yeah. That's spirituality. I was looking at how they do cremation earlier today since many aunt was cremated. It got me thinking of funeral planning, people I need to talk with, debts, etc. I read The Dharma and here is what it said:

Lokavipatti Sutta: The Failings of the World
Read at leisure.

If we are not comfortable with death (I.e. wanting afterlife) we'd always be in illusion that escaping attachment comes from the outside (god example) not from within (mind).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I dont see it as flawed. Who's?

Ours.

De ja vu. Just thought of the food analogy.

I don't see peoples religions as flawed. We part here.

Parting is always a bitter and sweet event. The good thing is both bitter and sweet are part of life.

Well done you are in the valley of Knowledge

"No defect canst thou see in the creation of the God of Mercy: Repeat the gaze: Seest thou a single flaw?" He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. He breaketh the cage of the body and the passions, and consorteth with the people of the immortal realm. He mounteth on the ladders of inner truth and hasteneth to the heaven of inner significance. He rideth in the ark of "we shall show them our signs in the regions and in themselves," and journeyeth over the sea of "until it become plain to them that (this Book) is the truth." And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love. Baha'u'llah : The Seven Valleys

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah. That's spirituality. I was looking at how they do cremation earlier today since many aunt was cremated. It got me thinking of funeral planning, people I need to talk with, debts, etc. I read The Dharma and here is what it said:

Lokavipatti Sutta: The Failings of the World
Read at leisure.

If we are not comfortable with death (I.e. wanting afterlife) we'd always be in illusion that escaping attachment comes from the outside (god example) not from within (mind).

I had a few Baha'is around for prayers and meditations today and we discussed death.

A few verses from the Baha'i writings.

O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Hidden Words, Arabic, no.32)

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CLXV)

Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXI)

Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXI)

Quotations | What Bahá’ís Believe

Obviously the Baha'is belief in an unknowable essence called God and an eternal human soul....

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It certainly is a one sided link. The books were chosen because that's what God wanted! That may be true, but I would have appreciated a more thoughtful analysis.

Wikipedia has a somewhat more detailed and considered account.

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia

Keep in mind that Muslims reject the NT canon as they think it contradicts the Quran. The Jews of course don't believe one verse of the NT refers to Jesus.

However the main reason the Abrahamic Faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i) value written scripture is that it provides an authentic and authoritative account of the life and teachings of their Founder. The texts of the Buddhists and Hindus can't be considered reliable to the same extent, and many Buddhists and Hindus don't feel that matters too much.

This will take me a bit to read and hard to reply to articles. Will read it when my eyes stay open. It wouldn't be wrong to say The Church had a lot to do with the bible's authenticity. If I really wanted to know what Christ taught I'd attend church and pray. I don't see spiritual authority in the Bible. Its so opposed to the suttas that I don't feel I will. Reading the bible is like saying the ghost writers potray more about the truth of scripture than the author himself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Parting is always a bitter and sweet event. The good thing is both bitter and sweet are part of life.

Well done you are in the valley of Knowledge

"No defect canst thou see in the creation of the God of Mercy: Repeat the gaze: Seest thou a single flaw?" He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest. He breaketh the cage of the body and the passions, and consorteth with the people of the immortal realm. He mounteth on the ladders of inner truth and hasteneth to the heaven of inner significance. He rideth in the ark of "we shall show them our signs in the regions and in themselves," and journeyeth over the sea of "until it become plain to them that (this Book) is the truth." And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love. Baha'u'llah : The Seven Valleys

Regards Tony

You confused me. You said that we can have flawed understandings. I say no. You give me a quote agreeing with me but not you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I had a few Baha'is around for prayers and meditations today and we discussed death.

A few verses from the Baha'i writings.

O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?
(Bahá’u’lláh, The Hidden Words, Arabic, no.32)

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, CLXV)

Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXI)

Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXI)

Quotations | What Bahá’ís Believe

Obviously the Baha'is belief in an unknowable essence called God and an eternal human soul....

Hmm. They are beautiful verses.

"What then does myō signify? It is simply the mysterious nature of our life from moment tomoment, which the mind cannot comprehend or words express. When we look into our own mind at any moment, we perceive neither color nor form to verify that it exists. Yet we still cannot say it does not exist, for many differing thoughts continually occur. The mind cannot be considered either toexist or not to exist. Life is indeed an elusive reality that transcends both the words and concepts of existence and nonexistence. It is neither existence nor nonexistence, yet exhibits the qualities of both. It is the mystic entity of the Middle Way that is the ultimate reality.

Myō is the name given to the mystic nature of life, and hō, to its manifestations. Renge, which means lotus flower, is used tosymbolize the wonder of this Law. If we understand that our life at this moment is myō,then we will also understand that our life at other moments is the Mystic Law.4 This realization is the mystic kyō, or sutra. The Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the direct path to enlightenment, for it explains that the entity of our life, which manifests either good or evil at each moment, is in fact the entity of the Mystic Law."

On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime | WND I | Nichiren Buddhism Library

Nicheren writes beautiful things too. That would be nice to read all the holy books.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This will take me a bit to read and hard to reply to articles. Will read it when my eyes stay open. It wouldn't be wrong to say The Church had a lot to do with the bible's authenticity. If I really wanted to know what Christ taught I'd attend church and pray. I don't see spiritual authority in the Bible. Its so opposed to the suttas that I don't feel I will. Reading the bible is like saying the ghost writers potray more about the truth of scripture than the author himself.

Perhaps the biggest difference between the Bible and the Buddhist suttas is the empahsis that the Bible has on a monotheistic God, whereas Buddhism has no such emphasis. One could easily conclude they live in two theologically irreconcilable worlds...parallel universes if you like. I feel comfortable with both sets of writings and see similarities between enlightenment and salvation. They entail freedom from ourselves and some of our himan limitations.

The OT says little about a soul and afterlife, so many Jews do not believe in life after death. Moses, like Buddha, was directing His followers to more urgent, practical matters like escaping from the Egyptians, surviving the desert, and the conquest of the Cannanites. Moses emphasised the law. Buddha, principles for right living.

The reality of this life is that we live in one universe, not parallel universes, whether we are Jews, Buddhists, Christians or Baha'is.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Buddha faught against people like moses? His first tenant was not to kill, what situations did he come from his wisdom and peace to be a leader to those against his teachings?

You sparked my interest

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is your belief. Once you see differences you'd know how the two do not add up not just by me but half those who came this thread. Unless you're saying I read the bible wrong, the bible speaks of god not bahaullah. Any person who reads the bible without bias can tell you the same as telling you two and two is four without liking math.



This is why you don't have christian beliefs. Christians are One body of Christ and Christ only. You seperated yourself from the very people you would need to agree with in order to believe scripture as a christian not bahai. I can say you have not yet realizes the true Christ but that's one thing bahai and Christians have in common: not accepting the Fact people believe differently and Believe it if not just don't express it. Are you saying I wasn't a real christian? If bahalluah is inline with Christ is that what you are saying?




Bahai belief. I'm not bahai. You have to use language I understand. I still see no similarities.



They are the authoritative people. Without the apostles no bible as you know it. Othorodox catholic not roman.



11] So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, [12] to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up [13] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ

Body of Christ are Christians not pagans.

[15]just as the Father knows me and I know the Father---and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

This is true only if bahai accepts Christ and him only not bahaullah. Bahai are pagans (as am I and all other gentiles) until we accept Christ only.



So every Christian is lost because their faith is divided over details (but not the basics)?

40,000 sects means nothing to Christ and Christians faith. You just called them all misguided but then you accept diversity???



Once you encourage Christians to follow their own faith, unity will start because you would not judge them for their division but help each other respect diversity.

People are free to believe or disbelieve anything they choose.

But that does not mean they can shirk responsibilities. The Bible makes it mandatory and obligatory for every Christian to accept Christ when He returns and as former Christians we have fulfilled this most sacred obligation, so in a sense, Baha’is are the true Christians because they have accepted Christ on both occasions when He came.

To accept Christ on His first coming then to denounce His Second Coming is the same as turning away from Jesus altogether.

So just how Christian are current day professed Christians if they turn away from Christ when He returned again?

The True Judge is Christ Himself when He returned not the religious leaders or church or you or I.

Christ, when He returned, proclaimed the Bishops and priests as spiritually dead.

O concourse of archbishops! He Who is the Lord of all men hath appeared. In the plain of guidance He calleth mankind, whilst ye are numbered with the dead! (Baha’u’llah)

People must be left to accept or reject whatever they choose but I maintain that information coming out of Christianity nowadays is incorrect with regards to the return of Jesus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You confused me. You said that we can have flawed understandings. I say no. You give me a quote agreeing with me but not you?

I do not think I have ever said there is a flaw in our misunderstandings, in error we can find the wisdom of the right way. Christ was always guiding His Disciples to be open to greater understandings.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

People are free to believe or disbelieve anything they choose.

But that does not mean they can shirk responsibilities. The Bible makes it mandatory and obligatory for every Christian to accept Christ when He returns and as former Christians we have fulfilled this most sacred obligation, so in a sense, Baha’is are the true Christians because they have accepted Christ on both occasions when He came.

To accept Christ on His first coming then to denounce His Second Coming is the same as turning away from Jesus altogether.

So just how Christian are current day professed Christians if they turn away from Christ when He returned again?

The True Judge is Christ Himself when He returned not the religious leaders or church or you or I.

Christ, when He returned, proclaimed the Bishops and priests as spiritually dead.

O concourse of archbishops! He Who is the Lord of all men hath appeared. In the plain of guidance He calleth mankind, whilst ye are numbered with the dead! (Baha’u’llah)

People must be left to accept or reject whatever they choose but I maintain that information coming out of Christianity nowadays is incorrect with regards to the return of Jesus.

I still say unity among diversity is encouraging others to belief in their faith and not seeing flaws among their individual real blessings they have Not turned against. You two have different beliefs. If bahai is about peace why see division as flaws of a person's individual relationship with Christ?

True Christians? Would that mean (again) if I were christian my relationship with Christ is off because we differ in belief of his second comming?

Even Christians disagree with who and when Jesus is coming. Why reinvent the wheel?