1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    That contrasts with you seeing them as misguided regardless of what they think. Seeing people as misguided because of rituals doesn't promote unity and peace among diversity.

    Can you rephrase it to correlate to your goal or does bahallauh mean something different than those two words apply?

    Rituals (traditions) do not go against god. Replacing them as idols does.

    Where in the bible does god say he is against something that isn't used as idols?

    Many Christians do. Disagreeing and saying one is misguided are two separate things. It is not love to call anyone misguided regardless your disagreements.

    Understand?

    Either is good. No one path is the truth. Diversity respects more than one truth or else there'd be no unity....

    Unless unity among diversity means something else?


    That doesn't mean others are misguided. It just means you guys differ in more than one truth. Opinions don't hurt. Taking away one tradition does.

    Is this what you're implying?


    Catholics have no patent on sacraments. All christian churches have them. Its embedded in christian teachings, scripture Torah, and so forth.

    Unless you have a different definition of sacraments, which sacrament has no necessary influence in one coming to the one true god?
     
  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    8,199
    Ratings:
    +6,150
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    There are eternal teachings that remain from age to age. The laws of love and justice for example. Whether its Christ or Buddha, the fundamental eternal Teachings are recycled. So you are correct that the Dharma was there before the Buddha came along. The Buddha simply resuscitated the Dharma breathing new life into it. In that manner it is like the ocean ebbing and flowing. The Dharma has always existed but it becomes invisible and sometimes a great Teacher like Buddha or Christ brings it to life again.

    I have no experience with SGI so can not comment. It sounds like your four years ended badly with divisions and schism. I don't see the Baha'i Faith as like that at all after nearly 30 years.

    Nice analogy.

    I have no problem with seeing Buddha as a teacher or guru, but then so is Christ and the Matrieya Buddha. They are much more as some of the Buddhist writings I shared have highlighted.

    The Buddha brought the Dharma to peoples consciousness in a manner they could understand it. Jesus taught people from a Jewish background using their unique world view as Buddha taught people from a Hindu background.

    Buddha grew up with Hinduism as Christ grew up with Judaism. From this starting point They brought a new ideology fundamentally different from where they started. In that manner we can't say Christ identified with a particular sect such as the Pharisees anymore that Buddha identified with specific polytheistic gods. He certainly used theistic concepts but He did not see a need for the gods of Hinduism as you say.

    A definition of essence: the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, which determines its character.

    As the table can not possibly conceive of the carpanter that created it, so too can man not understand the realm of God.

    The atheist believes that God is a non-existent essence, whereas Baha'is say unknowable. For Baha'is it is through the Manifestation of God, that we learn about God and come to know God. Baha'i turn to God through His Manifestations. We can worship the Manifestations and we can worship God. To worship includes reverence, devotion, obedience, and practice.

    I don't believe in the god that you don't believe in, but through Buddha, Christ, and Baha'u'llah I know God and worship Him. Each of us must find our path in life. We have Buddha and Christ in common although we see them differently.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,406
    Ratings:
    +1,061
    Religion:
    My Own
    The way to become a great being is find a parade of loving followers and step in front of it.
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    Actually, The Dharma isnt abstract. Love and justice are results of specific teachings not the other way around. Anyone can say any person (any) can give love. Its not a god give isolated trait.

    You guys are similar in goals, some politics, and less emphasis if none on ritual devotion. The only huge difference is Buddhism has no god. SGI (Japanese Buddhism) isnt an exception.

    The problem with Maitrieya is thats in Therevada Buddhism, but then you quote Pure Land in Mahayana that is different and has many many Buddhas after.

    My old question was. What will Meitreya teach thats different than The Buddha?

    Not politics. The Buddha's teachings dont change by time period. Culture does.

    I dont think Theravads teaches this. I see more of this in Mahayana Buddhism.

    I dont know what sect of The Buddha was in when he practiced Hinduism. I know there are some like terminology and mystics in some of The Dharma give Hindus believe in one god. Though in Buddhism its not a personal god. That and he mentions more than one Brahma, so Id have to double check. I go to another site one of the monks in another monastary put together with classes. They have a question and answer. I know there isnt a one god but The Buddha in Mahayana buddhism refers to more than one and they arent enlightened. They are just like us in that respect.

    Christ believes in one god.

    I can hear him now comparing his father's teachings to a "gentile's"

    Interesting. I usually say force which sounds star warzy. I understand the different ways to describe god and many names. I see it (not him or her) that Is life not gives it nor is a being that creates it. The culture, Bahai included, wrapped around the energy/life is quite interesting. Vinayaka did a good explanation of how Id see god or Brahman. Id love to know more but I respect its a cultural thang.

    He can, just the culture and making the unknown mystical probably helps people cope with the unknown. In my opinion, when you see god less mystic, you can see how people interact with god rather than the other way around. Gives a sense of truth if I were to believe in a creator.

    That I never understood. Mahummad, Christ, The Buddha (not Krishna) is just like we are: humans. Time period shouldnt void when someone is more spiritual than usual. I like Judaism to an extent because they go straight to god. Id probably be a solitary believer since people try and find god through a physical source rather than like in Hinduism, as so far I know, where Brahman is in and as all. God of abraham is no where like Hinduism; thus, its not like the gods The Buddha speaks of.

    You can get away with christ and Muhammad. Not eastern faiths. I just shake my head.
     
    #17184 Unveiled Artist, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,759
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    That was your 6th of January post as well. I remember you also asked who was Baha'u'llah a while later.

    You may note there was no loving parade for Baha'u'llah or any of the Great Beings, but angry mobs hell bent on eradicating their existance. It is stepping out in front of the angry Mobs in the Name of God, with no fear, that is the hallmark of all the Great Beings.

    Regards Tony
     
  6. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    2,406
    Ratings:
    +1,061
    Religion:
    My Own
    I've been reading about your Baha'u'llah. How would Baha'u'llah answer the following questions. Please answer in your own words. Scripture makes me sleepy.

    1. Who am I?
    2. Why am I here?
    3. What does it all mean?
    4. What is going to happen to me when I die?

    These are what I call the four great existential questions. I believe the purpose of having religion is so these unanswerable questions can be given concrete answers. This is not a trick or anything. I am genuinely and sincerely interested in the nature of your Baha'u'llah faith.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,759
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Thank you for the questions. I will give my most likely flawed understanding to those ageless questions.

    We are a Spirit connected with Mind created in God's Image, that is, with all the potential of virtue.

    We are given life to release that potential, we are like a seed that needs to be planted, watered and nurtured before we can sprout and grow. Or we are in the Womb/Matrix developing our capacities of our life to come.

    It means we have been gifted the chance of the knowledge of God, what it is to Love and to be part of that Love

    This is based on our choices in the matrix of this world. Free will is key to our growth. In this matrix we are to grow spiritual limbs which are all the virtues.

    When we die, it is a transition, we open our eyes to our next life with the limbs we have obtained here.

    From what I curently understand, the next life is a world of lights, but this of course is a massive subject with much written upon it, I will finish by quoting a meditation;

    "O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?"

    This to me is a glimpse that light is our splendor and it is the Light we are to look for and will find in all the Great Beings.

    Regards Tony
     
    #17187 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,384
    Ratings:
    +1,484
    Religion:
    Bhedabheda Vedanta
    I have a question also, friend. Do Baha'is believe rebirth/reincarnation in some way?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,759
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Thank you, great to hear from you.

    Yes from my understanding it is based in rebirth.

    The aim of this life is to die to our animal self and be reborn to the self of God that is within us all. That self of God is all the Virtues, it is pure light.

    I see that in this life, that this is a process of ebb and flow and for some like I, it is a life of many births of understanding and deaths of neglect, each new understanding gives strength to avoid repeating the same mistake. Some find the goal in a few steps and some they obtain the goal in a single bound.

    As we know this is a topic with many other avenues of thought.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    In bahaism, do you physically and mentally die and come back as a new person reborn repeatedly until you actually/literally rather than figuratively die at your last life without continuation of mind and body; non-existent?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,759
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Firstly this is not a Bahai view, this is my opinion based on aspects of various Faiths found upon my journey. It is my reconcilliation of the Truth they may contain.

    Carlita, the answer is already contained in what I posted. This has also been offered before in this thread. It is my alternate view of the rebirth of the same soul and mind in this world. Something I can see that has happened in my life.

    That I replied to you again, gives you confirmation that all the spiritual deaths of this world are dying to the 'Spirit of Faith'.

    In this life we are Born and we die, this is the reality of this life, it results in death Thus looking at this life spiritually, all that is of this world is death. We take nothing of it to our grave but the body, which then returns to where it came from, the earth.

    In this life we are offered a path to our Spiritual Discovery. To find out that Spirit is our true Life, this is rebirth.

    Once found and knowledge is gained of what is required, that spiritual existence requires the maintaining of the vitals of that existence, by implementing that knowledge. If we do not, we die spiritually.

    I can look back at the turning points in my Spiritual Journey and say that when the vitals were not maintained, I returned to this world of death. Each time it required a rebirth to the Spirit of Faith and a renewed effort to maintain the vitals of Faith.

    I see this as why God says that no person can be exalted over another, as no one knows their end and when and how it will be. Will it be at a time when spiritual death is also practiced, or will it be at a time when rebirth has confirmed Faith. Thus we are told;

    "...He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire!"
    (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 265)

    You may like to read some quotes on death at this link -

    Death

    Regards Tony
     
    #17191 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    I just wanted to know if it was taught. If its a bahai view. You other post is mostly metaphors.

    Edit. I cant understand methorical spiritual worded answers. I use those in poetry.
     
    #17192 Unveiled Artist, Jan 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  13. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,384
    Ratings:
    +1,484
    Religion:
    Bhedabheda Vedanta
    Thanks for that. Our views are alike in some ways. Traditionally, Mahayana Buddhists believe in Buddha-nature, or the essential nature of all as it were. Ignorance of this nature is what causes the poisons/defilements to arise in people, leading to hurtful actions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,759
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Yes that is a very compatable thought between the paths we are on, thank you for sharing.

    Regards Tony
     
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,759
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Do you understand the poetry you write?

    Regards Tony
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    Yes? It comes from me in a language I understand. Unless youre talking about Eager Allen Poe poems it took me awhile to get through The Raven. I read it ten or some odd years ago and finally got it. I tend to read short poetry a lot of it simple but profound. The bible is another I cant get through with the Thous. Bahallah writings dont help.

    Adrian and I spoke briefly about it. We were discussing people with my brain surgery and illness have a tendency to do and understand language differently. I went to my neuropsych and got confirmation. @adrian009 I think he said something about my reading into words meant as metaphor too literally. Funny, he gave me an example of a glass house breaking. Cant remember what he said it meant.

    Anyway, if thats a double ended question, yes I do since I wrote it; and, no I dont read poetry I cannot understand.

    Tony, I ask for clarification for a reason.

    1. I understand what you say
    2. I can ask a new question without repeating myself

    When you ignore questions, very simple ones, I back track.

    It is Not religious in nature.
     
  17. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,759
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Metaphors is all we have to describe the reality of what is Spiritual, so the path is difficult.

    Those in Glass houses should not throw stones. Or Do not criticize others if you have a similar weaknesses yourself. Or judge not, that you may be not judged.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    Tony. All I wanted to know is if Bahai taught rebirth as how The Buddha describes it. You were not talking to me, you were answering Buddha Dharma. It was a yes or no short answer question.

    You do this all the time and its distracting.

    Don't answer the question if you dont like my asking you to clarify your answers.

    Conversations are not offers of information. Clarification and related questions go along with discussion. It is what makes a conversation worth having when we ask for clarification Before answering with our opinion.
     
  19. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    7,759
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Carlita this has been answered many times. So I offer a summary of past answers.

    Firstly we would have to determine exactly what the Buddha taught, otherwise the question you ask can not be justly considered.

    We have said Baha'u'llah has shown us the true intent of what the Buddha previously taught. The Buddha and Baha'u'llah are One. Thus It we want to know what the Buddha actually taught, we now need to understand what Baha'u'llah has said.

    If the question was "do the Bahai consider rebirth in the way some men now see that the Buddha describes it?" Then no.

    The accuracy of what is recorded that is attributed to the Buddha is unreliable and meaning now ambiguous.

    The Buddha did have many past lives but many future lives as well, He is all the Prophets, He said what Christ Said. I am the First and I am the Last, but in a different way. All the great beings have alluded to their return. They all partake of the Holy Spirit and are thus One.

    This is spiritual Metephor at its deepest realization, this is not Material bodies being spoken about.

    As for his disciples, and people such as us born of the human spirit. Baha'u'llah has also explained that the return is that of attributes of people before, not of an individuals spirit.

    All the best.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    Obviously, I don't agree god of abrabam is somehow connected to The Buddha. Its a man religion, for man, and by man. It puts high emphasis on not trusting spiritual (brahma etc) sources as points to enlightenment. Unless you can show without bahai scripture the connection I don't see it.

    That is not my question.

    Since rebirth is a man thing and bahaullah is a god thing, is there another word you can use for rebirth?
     
Loading...