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Featured How are these Great Beings explained?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I'm trying to guess your point. You giving me quotes but no answer related to the points.
    Yes. People who get baptism express this love above by visual signs of an inner conviction: a sacrament.

    And to those who express love via baptism and are Not veiled???

    If there eyes are blind so is yours. No one is special.

    What specifically about water invalidates the spirit of baptism?
     
  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    The people that removed the veils, or did not allow a veil to obsure Christ, would be the Christains that accepted Muhammad, then the Muslims that Accepted the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    You do not need to agree, we just offer that this view is based in scripture.

    I like that many Saints in the Past have offered many thoughts in tune with what Baha'u'llah has collectivly offered, as the necessary requirements for this day.

    Regards Tony
     
  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    This discussion has become very fragmented again.

    Abdul'baha offered this view. From this post, I have said more than enough on the subject and will bow out more discussion on it.

    "For material water does not purify the heart of man; no, it cleanses his body. But the heavenly water and spirit, which are knowledge and life, make the human heart good and pure; the heart which receives a portion of the bounty of the Spirit becomes sanctified, good and pure—that is to say, the reality of man becomes purified and sanctified from the impurities of the world of nature. These natural impurities are evil qualities: anger, lust, worldliness, pride, lying, hypocrisy, fraud, self-love, etc. Man cannot free himself from the rage of the carnal passions except by the help of the Holy Spirit. That is why He says baptism with the spirit, with water and with fire is necessary, and that it is essential—that is to say, the spirit of divine bounty, the water of knowledge and life, and the fire of the love of God. Man must be baptized with this spirit, this water and this fire so as to become filled with the eternal bounty. Otherwise, what is the use of baptizing with material water? No, this baptism with water was a symbol of repentance, and of seeking forgiveness of sins. But in the cycle of Bahá’u’lláh there is no longer need of this symbol; for its reality, which is to be baptized with the spirit and love of God, is understood and established.
    (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 91)

    Regards Tony
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Do you understand the position of those who disagree with you?

    My whole issue with LH and your posts (and few others) is not what you believe. Its not my faith. Its generalization. Negativity of other religious faiths in relation to yours And saying you promote peace and diversity. Cultural appropriation and offering without discussion of whether the offer is appropriate.

    There is a lot of discrimination, racism, sexism, and religious laws in America that so far exists without much address.

    Whether one shows love for Christ by water or not is not the point of devotion. You guys use physical to condemn but never to encourage your peers. This is more immoral than just disagreeing where you try to find similarities instead.
     
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The discussion was between LH and I. I don't know if you understand what I say or just like to quote a lot.

    How

    does water invalidate spiritual baptism?

    Again, if I were baptised, what about my baptism in water invalidates my love for Christ?
     
  6. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Yes - because you, LH and IT fragmented it by making preposterous statements and then posting completely unrelated quotes and remarks when challenged. @Carlita 's question is a perfectly fair one - if water baptism was a valid symbol of repentance in the Christian faith prior to the 19th century (which is what Abdu'l Baha says) why is not still valid for Christians now? What is it about the physical symbol that invalidates the inner reality that it symbolizes - and how did that suddenly change about 150 years ago?
     
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  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    This is being offered only from the point of view of a Baha'i. A Christain is still free to practice as they wish to, we do not and will not stop them. God bless them all.

    It changed because there was a new Message, the one promised by Christ. This Message says we no longer need the ritual of Sacraments, Baptisim and Confession to another person. We now know the spiritual intent of thise practices

    Thus If as stated, Baha'u'llah is the one Promised by Christ, then we have to ask, have all the physical practices maintained the Spiritual state required to accept the returned Christ?

    I attend church each week and watch and hear these practices each week. I hear their plea while partaking of these rituals, they ask that partaking of them may help them prepare for the day of Christs Return.

    I partake at those times in my heart and soul the spiritual reality of those rituals and pray their prayer is heard.

    Now if Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, which practice is acceptable? The one Christ has now given where we partake of His rememberance spiritually, or the one where people still offer the material emblems of Love without having the spiritual connection to Christ?

    Time will roll on, I will still attend church in fellowship, stand why they offer praise as they do and I as I do and may the future find our path to Unity.

    That was my concluding remarks on that subject.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Christians knew the spiritual intent of the sacraments in the 1st century - have you read the Acts of the Apostles, Paul's letters or John's Gospel? That still doesn't invalidate the sacraments. Even if the Christ has returned and the reality of the 'spiritual intent' behind them has been realized, how does that change anything? Abdu'l Baha seems to have suddenly realized that he - and more importantly his father - had not been baptized and therefore would have had difficulty being accepted by many Christians as followers or fulfillers of Christ's commission. That would have been a fairly big "oops" moment I think - but too late now - one can't be baptized posthumously so better invalidate baptism and hope that nobody objects too strongly.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Its not your belief. Its statements like above that totally belittles another persons connection with christ.

    Its like christians calling people who arent christian followers of false religion or devil

    Others religions tell people not like them they are deluted and blind.

    You have pagan religions arguing who has the right to own the letter P.

    And

    You have bahai telling us that we are blind or veiled becauae we use personal, hand downed, age old rituals that connect us to god ...

    But christian religions seek peace amo g their own people and tolerate the rest. Pagans dont seem to bother others outside theirbreligion and peers. Buddhist are pretty isolated in practice unless at temples and holidays.

    Bahai say they promote unity, peace, and diversity.

    The other religions dont make that claim. Since bahai did, the beliefs have to support their goal. No veils. No blindness. No spiritually disconnected.

    Diversity.

    Unless bahaullah doesnt understand the definition of the word, its totally a contradiction to be diverse when everyone has to believe the same thing to be bahai to have a symbolic connection with god.
     
  10. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    It’s all in the interpretation, perspective and emphasis. Jesus strongly emphasised love then a virtuous upright character. He used symbols and parables to get His message across but it was not the symbols or rituals that were what was important but what they were emphasising.

    Baptism with water was a symbol to try and help the people to understand that believing in Jesus included washing our characters just as we wash our bodies. Otherwise water by itself has no effect on removing sins.

    “It is evident then that this purification is a symbol of repentance from all sin, as though one were saying: “O God! Just as my body has been cleansed and purified from material defilements, so cleanse and purify my spirit from the defilements of the world of nature,”

    Excerpt From
    Some Answered Questions
    ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá
     
  11. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    But that still does not invalidate the rituals. Christians see the sacraments as outward physical signs of inward spiritual convictions - to be honest - like I just said in my previous post, I suspect Abdu'l Baha was really trying to excuse his own unbaptized condition, not for his own sake, but for the sake of proselytizing among baptized Christians who knew full well that Jesus himself was baptized before commencing his ministry - why not the returned Christ if he has come as a physical man again?
     
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  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Symbols arent secondary to what they symbolize. Like the son to his father, the son (and bahallauh, muhammad, and moses) are physical symbols/representations of a spiritual truth/love/creator to its creation. They cant be separated.

    The bahai obligatory prayer and others are Saraments. They are visual representations and form of communication for a convictiom of inner truth.

    Symbols/visual signs/sacraments mean something. The symbols ARE the thing they represent. If not, bahaullah, christ, and muhammad cannot lead to god.

    They are actual physical people and their literal existence and physical interaction with god is a symbol to you as with many believers who personalize books and people you "know" that lived thousand years before your time.

    Abstract words like love are just words. To actualize this english word, there are things you Do. You interact in love.

    Unless you sit in one room and do nothing but think of god in a new age manner, the bias over other peoples faiths dont create unity among diversity.

    Its fine to be "right" as a community. But to designate whats right and wrong for others??? (Direct. Indirect. Or by opinion.)

    No peace.
     
  13. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    The way a person wants to worship is between him/her and God.

    The point I am trying to make is that love needs to be inclusive of all humanity.

    The love Christ taught was unconditional love for all humanity. That’s what the world needs most. To love all races, religionists and nationalities as our own. What greater love is there than to love all humanity?

    If we don’t love all religionists then we are not truly religious. Conditional love is fake love just like fake news.
     
  14. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I see your point I really do however where I digress is where I believe the symbol of water was used to relate to the people of the time the need for them to cleanse their souls just as they cleanse their bodies and that water of itself had no effect except as a reminder.

    Now in today’s world we can believe without the need of a ritual.

    But if it makes them feel good then I’m happy.
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Yes symbols are often used to convey an inner reality as we live in this world, but the symbols themselves are not the reality is what I’m meaning.

    So water in Baptism is used to symbolise the cleansing of the spirit just as physical water is used to wash our bodies, but the physical water itself does not cleanse us of our sins. Obeying God’s laws does.
     
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  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    This highly includes people who use rituals
    I made my questions specific. I dont like generalizations. When I was at The Church, I had conditional love. It wasnt new age. It was based on and in the sacraments of christ-Not the church organization but The Church, the body of christ. My practice was based on culture and tradition that keeps people in christ love daily. It gave grounding.

    What about My relationship with christ is false because of my use of ritual to be close to him as opposed to you not using rituals

    And

    Achieving the same goal?

    What about my being baptized in water invalidates being baptized in spirit?

    Not what the world things and is doing. Not your experiences (you arent me). Take out politics.
     
    #17156 Unveiled Artist, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    No Catholic thinks water alone cleanse sins. If thats the case, they'd accept LDS, JW, and religions that dont baptized by father, son, and holy spirit all because water is used.

    Spirit validates the visual sign. The visual sign doesnt validate the spirit. If thats not the case, The Eucharist at the Episcopal, othorodox catholic church, and Prys. would all be the same.

    It isnt. Spiritual and physical work together.

    How would I believe in bahaullah (for example) when its his spiritual message thats important but his physical presence to where that knowledge can be transmitted is symbolic?
     
    #17157 Unveiled Artist, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    So do you believe in God?

    Regards Tony
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    You are "deflecting". You get my point or are you changing the topic?
     
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    All the deflections are important aspects to understand what is being discussed to date. Believing in God as a Christian, especially a Catholic, is an extreamly important aspect to understand the Spirit behind the practices. Without God the Practices have no meaning. The rituals give us understanding about our Spiritual Connection with God, not with a flesh body that walked this earth.

    Regards Tony
     
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