How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

How does science confirm anything about the spirit?

Body yes, but spirit?

That, and why do you need science for this? Historians know what day, time, and place The Buddha was born but don't know the dates of Jesus christ. That doesn't make one more important than the other (objectively speaking). It just means that even if they are both facts, that is not the point. People are still Buddhists dispite the lack of facts and science that supports a lot of the reasons for it's beliefs. But, like Christianity, that should not matter.



Real dreams and visions or symbolic?



Does it matter?

Yes. Science doesn't accept spiritual things because they can't be proven. We can't go back in time to say these things happen or not, we can just go by what we know now as "true" or fact. I don't see how science plays a part in this.



Science can't prove that a spirit can ascend yet you believe it is fact and true?

Bahai belief and christian belief are totally different. In most christian churches, literal resurrection is not just in the books. We can read anything anyway we want. It's something you experience with your peers. Bahai is not a christian peer. The experience would be different than people who believe and experience the same thing.

I don't see facts from sacred-books. I see them from experience.

It is precisely because science has been ignored that religion has descended into superstition and myth. For instance, science has proven beyond any doubt that man evolved over millions of years yet the Bible says the world was created in 7 days. The literal meaning of creation is fallacy and myth as science has proven otherwise.

Another meaning is thus intended by the Bible.

Likewise with such superstitions as bodily resurrection. Science proves that the body decomposes after death. Christ has a physical body that was subject to this law of decomposition like all of us. Another meaning was intended by the visions seen of Him after His death as His body was decomposing.

Although these superstitous beliefs are against the proven science of bodily resurrection people will stoop to any level to try to say their beliefs are superior.

The sickness of each culture, nationality, religion and race each seeking to claim its superiority over the others is what is the major impediment to world peace and world unity.

We should just all accept each other as equals and not keep pushing the superiority envelope as it’s only caused hatred and prejudices and with this ‘holier than thou’ attitude we can’t have peace.

As I said before. The bodily resurrection is indoctrinated into Christians so they can say their religion is the only one where their Messiah bodily rose from the dead so other religions which have buried Prophets are not the real deal.

Science proves that all human bodies decompose after death, So did Jesus’s body.

And Christians maintain that Baha’u’llah is false because His body is buried on earth. So this superstition has caused them to reject other Prophets God has sent.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The difference is you equate physical acts of higher love to material benefits. I dont see that connection;

That is the opposite of what I said, and also of the intent of the question. I also do not see Love in Material Benefits.

The hug is not a material benefit. Its a spiritual benefit.

If I was born without arms do I lack in any way the ability to give spiritually?

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I cant say for or against just offer nonbias views since I dont see either bahai and christianity god-events as facts.

It is precisely because science has been ignored that religion has descended into superstition and myth. For instance, science has proven beyond any doubt that man evolved over millions of years yet the Bible says the world was created in 7 days. The literal meaning of creation is fallacy and myth as science has proven otherwise.

Myth just means commonly known stories that arent proven. Bahallauh assension is a myth (cant be proven) just as christ physical resurrection.

Some things are literal others are not. In church, at least in Mass, christians go through the full passion.

Saying the physical resurrection is symbolic is saying their salvation is symbolic, right??

Another meaning is thus intended by the Bible.

Likewise with such superstitions as bodily resurrection. Science proves that the body decomposes after death. Christ has a physical body that was subject to this law of decomposition like all of us. Another meaning was intended by the v

The problem is you believe in supersitions (not a bad word) just as they do. Science cant proove a spirit came from any man to go to god. Which god? Science doesnt have a bias over finding one god over another. There is no tests on earth we can judge what supernatural being is from one religion or another.

Its personal conviction not facts. Science doesnt need to be a part of religion.

Is your faith stronger with science than without it? Why?

Although these superstitous beliefs are against the proven science of bodily resurrection people will stoop to any level to try to say their beliefs are superior.

All spiritual events are not aligned with science (excluding science of psychology). Its not one religion specific.

These religions adherents have personal conviction. I dont see things as fake just because its superstitious.

The sickness of each culture, nationality, religion and race each seeking to claim its superiority over the others is what is the major impediment to world peace and world unity.

Let me ask, are you part of this world's sickness?

We should just all accept each other as equals and not keep pushing the superiority envelope as it’s only caused hatred and prejudices and with this ‘holier than thou’ attitude we can’t have peace

If you are looking at others beliefs as superstitius, thats not a good way to start.

As I said before. The bodily resurrection is indoctrinated into Christians so they can say their religion is the only one where their Messiah bodily rose from the dead so other religions which have buried Prophets are not the real deal.

That is bias. True or not that doesnt matter. Its literal. If not, christianity is symbolic.

Science proves that all human bodies decompose after death, So did Jesus’s body.

Youre stuck on books not experience.

And Christians maintain that Baha’u’llah is false because His body is buried on earth. So this superstition has caused them to reject other Prophets God has sent.

Both are superstitous beliefs.

That is okay. Their evidence and how popular they are are not important Especially if you feel its all spiritual and symbolic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is the opposite of what I said, and also of the intent of the question. I also do not see Love in Material Benefits.

I gave you an example of hugging and love are the same and you gave me example of material benefits. I see no connection. Why post it if not comparing or contrasting my former post?

If I was born without arms do I lack in any way the ability to give spiritually?

The seniors I worked with didnt have the mind to understand love in a complex way. They understood hugs.

If you have no arms? Everything we do isnt dependent on whether we have arms.

People cook without arms. People clean their homes. There are many things people can Do that is not separated nor secondary to their belief. Not a good example but I understood the intent.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think we went through that before.
What is important is, if we look at the Book, we must look at its entire and whole, not only some parts of it. We know that, in some other passages of Bible, it is written that the Book of God is sealed until the time of End, which is the time of Manifestation of the Promised One. When He comes, He will open the seals of the Book so its hidden meaning becomes known. That can be seen that, stories such as Resurrection, have a Figurative and hidden meaning, which according to Wisdom of God, it was supposed to be unsealed when the Promised One comes. What is the problem then? Is it hard to believe that God had sealed His own Book, thereby the inner meaning of the Resurrection was hidden? Is it hard to accept that He opened the seals of the Book later, and revealed its hidden meaning?

Moreover, many Christians agree that the story of disciples seeing Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus is not literal. They say Moses and Elijah were symbols of the Law and Prophets. When that story can be accepted by Christians to be symbolic, why not the Resurrection?

It's not one book. Being sealed has nothing, nothing to do with the gospels. These were accounts of what Jesus said and did. Are they accurate and historical? Many people have their doubts. But Christians are told not to doubt it, but to believe and trust in what the gospels say.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I cant say for or against just offer nonbias views since I dont see either bahai and christianity god-events as facts.


Myth just means commonly known stories that arent proven. Bahallauh assension is a myth (cant be proven) just as christ physical resurrection.

Some things are literal others are not. In church, at least in Mass, christians go through the full passion.

Saying the physical resurrection is symbolic is saying their salvation is symbolic, right??



The problem is you believe in supersitions (not a bad word) just as they do. Science cant proove a spirit came from any man to go to god. Which god? Science doesnt have a bias over finding one god over another. There is no tests on earth we can judge what supernatural being is from one religion or another.

Its personal conviction not facts. Science doesnt need to be a part of religion.

Is your faith stronger with science than without it? Why?



All spiritual events are not aligned with science (excluding science of psychology). Its not one religion specific.

These religions adherents have personal conviction. I dont see things as fake just because its superstitious.



Let me ask, are you part of this world's sickness?



If you are looking at others beliefs as superstitius, thats not a good way to start.



That is bias. True or not that doesnt matter. Its literal. If not, christianity is symbolic.



Youre stuck on books not experience.



Both are superstitous beliefs.

That is okay. Their evidence and how popular they are are not important Especially if you feel its all spiritual and symbolic.

All I’m saying is that ideas which teach us that one race, religion or nationality is superior to another are against the spirit of love and unity. If we are to all get along we need to see each other as equals.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is debatable really. Because, the passages of Bible may be interpreted literally or symbolically.
Most Christians agree that some parts of the Bible is not literal. For example, the story of seeing Moses and Elijah, according to most Christians is symbolic. They believe the disciples had a vision, and the Moses and Elijah were not physically on the Mountain.
This tells us that even according to Christians, not everything written in Bible are physical events.
Sure you can ask them about that.
Thus, as for resurrection, it can be considered that the Authors of Bible did not mean to describe a physical event. It is debatable...
W cannot say Jesus was not physically resurrected and at the same time saying He physically rose.
The Bahai belief states that the Authors of Bible were not describing a physical resurrection, in the same way they did not describe a physical event of appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mountain.
Many of Christians interpretation of Bible is literal with regards to Resurrection and therefor they believe the Authors of Bible meant to describe a physical Resurrection. In this case we cannot say both Bahai and literal Christian interpretations are correct. Only one of them can be true.


That sounds nice and friendly.
I



Fair enough.



As I said before, the Baha'is do not believe Resurrection of Jesus was physical, thus, a physical resurrection in my view is not real. I am sure you also do not believe Jesus physically rose, do you? You do not even believe in a god, right?

My Christian friends say there is symbolism in the story, but that Moses and Elijah appeared.

Baha'is twist this and the resurrection into things that never happened but we're only symbolic stories. So what about the rest of the story about Jesus? What about Jesus himself? Why is he real and historical when the story around him are made up symbolic events?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All I’m saying is that ideas which teach us that one race, religion or nationality is superior to another are against the spirit of love and unity. If we are to all get along we need to see each other as equals.

Im only focusing on spiritual and physical combination. I disagree with discrimination and I also disagree with universalism. The details such as whether the physical resurrection as a fact is besides the point. I said that if the physical resurrection is symbolic so is a christian's salvation,

Right?

 

[CG Didymus]

It is expained by Christ and then Baha'u'llah as to why those given the knowledge of Christ wrote as they did.

Firstly it was the time of Parables, stories with hidden spiritual understandings that enable us to meditate and open more paths of spiritual understandings and then Baha'u'llah has said;

"Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God's holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books."
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 47)

Regards Tony

So if you wrote a biography of a person, why would you, the writer, throw in something that was fictional as if it really happened?

When it comes to to Jesus, Baha'is take away all the special, mystical things he did. So without those things, he was a very ordinary man. Add those stories, he becomes a god-like being with super powers. I think Christians believe him to be the super hero.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'is twist this and the resurrection into things that never happened

It is the same Spirit in Baha'u'llah that was in Christ that has told us what actually happened.

Thus it boils down to Authority. Is Baha'u'llah who He says He is, or not?

If He is, you have the Truth, you can read what He says and make sense from it.

It is our choice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So if you wrote a biography of a person, why would you, the writer, throw in something that was fictional as if it really happened?

When it comes to to Jesus, Baha'is take away all the special, mystical things he did. So without those things, he was a very ordinary man. Add those stories, he becomes a god-like being with super powers. I think Christians believe him to be the super hero.

That is not what we say, these are your ideas offered.

All Physical Miracles are not what the Great Beings come for. They are not here for our entertainmemt.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Hm.


It can, but we're speaking from a Christian point of view rather than Bahai.



Without jesus actual resurrection, Christianity would be symbolic.



Yes. Physical resurrection is not symbolic as other parts may be.



I'm smothered with Christians, both old school and new school. A lot of the non-denomination christians make it more symbolic. It's a protest against the Church's "literalism" of the Eucharist. Old school seem to put more emphasis on Christ resurrection than his death. If you said the resurrection is symbolic, it's saying their salvation is symbolic. It's literally tearing the heart of a Christian's salvation when you say that their scripture says one thing when either denomination or by christian, it says and means something totally different.

It's not about Bahai views.



Did not mean?

To me, either I agree with it or I don't. I can't make something different all because I personally don't agree it. Jesus rose in scripture. I disagree that he literally did. It's not about me though. It's about scripture in how christian's interpret it. It's their religion not mine.

Anything is debatable. I don't take sides so either side have their views. Though, Christians don't have a view of other religions in a positive light nor do they change other religions other than how they see Judaism and in some cases Islam.



Resurrected means rose from the ground. He was brought up from the ground of his tomb. That's why people saw his body and spirit rise and no one is in the tomb. (Christian view not mine)



I understand why Bahai believe what they do. It's not christianity any more so than The Buddha being part of your faith and calling it Buddhism and likewise Hinduism. It's not what you believe-that is on you-it's interpreting other people's faiths in the light of your own. It's not just religious. Many people do it especially in conversations thinking one party knows what other is saying and means even without asking for clarification and accepting facts over one's own opinions. (aka Pet Peeve)



You'd literally have to experience the resurrection from a literal point of view not just spiritual. I mean, I wouldn't be having this conversation if I haven't experienced it. This would be a foreign language to me as a whole. If I hadn't read the Bible, this would make no sense at all.



We're talking about christians not Bahai.

It is not about me.

That's my point.

Without the resurrection, Christianity is based on and is following a myth. My main objection to the Baha'i explanation is that I don't see why the gospels would follow the events that took place in Jesus ' life, but some of the things never happened... The writers put them in for their symbolic meaning? I don't see it. It makes the story of Jesus fantasy.

 

[arthra]

Why didn't the gospel writers say that? Instead of making up a false resurrection story, that made it sound like Jesus had come back to life? That's the thing... Were the writers deceived, or were they part of the deception?

Thanks for your post "Didymus" the area we're discussing is not in my view such that we can ask about deception because the Gospel is many layers of verbal tradition in Aramaic and Jewish context later translated and passed around in a Hellenistic context and over all the later emphasis given a church overview after creedal statements were accepted. So it's a process. I think the work on the resurrection might be of interest to you and some of the contributors of the Jesus Seminar.

We Baha'is also see parallels between the life of Jesus and the life of the Bab. One writer some years ago compiled a a parallel of Their lives and I'll provide a reference here:

http://phoenixbahaicommunity.org/wp...n-the-Lives-of-Christ-and-the-Báb-revised.pdf

 

[loverofhumanity]

Im only focusing on spiritual and physical combination. I disagree with discrimination and I also disagree with universalism. The details such as whether the physical resurrection as a fact is besides the point. I said that if the physical resurrection is symbolic so is a christian's salvation,

Right?

Here is a definition of Christian salvation from Eerdman’s Dictionary of the Bible...

Salvation does include a concern for the earthly needs of people, as evidenced by the miracles of Jesus as well as the teachings of James and 1 John, but its major focus is more spiritual in nature. Salvation means entry into the kingdom of God, or the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Without the resurrection, Christianity is based on and is following a myth. My main objection to the Baha'i explanation is that I don't see why the gospels would follow the events that took place in Jesus ' life, but some of the things never happened... The writers put them in for their symbolic meaning? I don't see it. It makes the story of Jesus fantasy.

I think they either understand but only speak of what bahai believe or they dont understand because they can only speak from what they believe.

I find that odd. I can speak by what I believe then I can put my beliefs aside and speak of what others believe without needing to see it in my own eyes. Someone thought I was searching because I dont have a one sided view. Another person when I first came didnt know what I believed because of it. I dont know if its an atheist thing or I just wasnt raised like that but its not American, I can see that now.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is a definition of Christian salvation from Eerdman’s Dictionary of the Bible...

Salvation does include a concern for the earthly needs of people, as evidenced by the miracles of Jesus as well as the teachings of James and 1 John, but its major focus is more spiritual in nature. Salvation means entry into the kingdom of God, or the kingdom of heaven.

You didnt answer my question.

Any christian would tell you their salvation isnt based on the dictionary.

Edit:

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! -Romans 5:10 | and Mathew 28:1-20 (This reads not as symbolism but a testimony of what one actually saw, people and govenrment officials who interacted, and disciples and family who all were present when jesus actually appeares to them.)

This is salvation. Without the death and resurection of christ, christianity would be symbolic.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is the same Spirit in Baha'u'llah that was in Christ that has told us what actually happened.

Thus it boils down to Authority. Is Baha'u'llah who He says He is, or not?

If He is, you have the Truth, you can read what He says and make sense from it.

It is our choice.

Regards Tony

No,no,no... The New Testament is the story of a mythical character if Baha'is are right. Christians wrote the gospels and lied. They said Jesus resurrected from the dead. Baha'is say he didn't. That makes them into liars.

But I ask over and over again, when did Christianity ever have the truth? They believed what Baha'is call superstitious beliefs. They still preach it... That Jesus conquered death and appeared alive to his followers. If that isn't true, then Christianity is a false religion, teaching false things about God and Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not what we say, these are your ideas offered.

All Physical Miracles are not what the Great Beings come for. They are not here for our entertainmemt.

Regards Tony

And what do Christians say about why Jesus performed the miracles? Why the miracle of a virgin birth? Why the healing of lepers and the crippled? Why water into wine and why walking on water? All this has to be fantasy if you make the resurrection fantasy.

So what is real about the story of Jesus? What did he really do? Nothing, you make him a myth... Almost, but then Baha'is say how great he was. Great for what? You deny all things the gospels say he did? And then make it superstitious to believe those things? Things described as real. Baha'is do not believe in the Christian version of Jesus. They have created their own Jesus.

For you that Jesus is more believable, and your prophet has said that is the real Jesus. But that makes the Jesus of Christianity a false, mythological Jesus.

 

[loverofhumanity]

...

You didnt answer my question.

Any christian would tell you their salvation isnt based on the dictionary.

‘
As a former Catholic salvation meant believing in Jesus and obeying His Teachings.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks for your post "Didymus" the area we're discussing is not in my view such that we can ask about deception because the Gospel is many layers of verbal tradition in Aramaic and Jewish context later translated and passed around in a Hellenistic context and over all the later emphasis given a church overview after creedal statements were accepted. So it's a process. I think the work on the resurrection might be of interest to you and some of the contributors of the Jesus Seminar.

We Baha'is also see parallels between the life of Jesus and the life of the Bab. One writer some years ago compiled a a parallel of Their lives and I'll provide a reference here:

http://phoenixbahaicommunity.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Parallels-between-the-Lives-of-Christ-and-the-Báb-revised.pdf

If Baha'is denied the New Testament as being the Word of God and simply said that those writers were mixing myth with reality. Then, I'd have no problem, but Baha'is say it is the Word of God, and then turn it and reshape it to fit their beliefs.