How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

I think we went through that before.
What is important is, if we look at the Book, we must look at its entire and whole, not only some parts of it. We know that, in some other passages of Bible, it is written that the Book of God is sealed until the time of End, which is the time of Manifestation of the Promised One. When He comes, He will open the seals of the Book so its hidden meaning becomes known. That can be seen that, stories such as Resurrection, have a Figurative and hidden meaning, which according to Wisdom of God, it was supposed to be unsealed when the Promised One comes. What is the problem then? Is it hard to believe that God had sealed His own Book, thereby the inner meaning of the Resurrection was hidden? Is it hard to accept that He opened the seals of the Book later, and revealed its hidden meaning?

Moreover, many Christians agree that the story of disciples seeing Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus is not literal. They say Moses and Elijah were symbols of the Law and Prophets. When that story can be accepted by Christians to be symbolic, why not the Resurrection?

I think as we become more scientific our societies will eventually see these things in a more rational way.

There is a lot of superstition within religion which is why we need science to help us distinguish between fact and myth.

This is a recent translation of a verse in the Bible where Christ says to ‘let the dead bury the dead’ which of course doesn’t sound rational at all. In this new translation reason and logic seem to have prevailed.

Luke 9:60 NLT

[60] But Jesus told him, "Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go and preach about the Kingdom of God."

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you understand why I say they are both equally important?

Yes I understand it’s important to have both love and to question.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you understand why I say they are both equally important?

I would say to everyone something is important.
To children, toys and Santa Clause are important.
To Hitler, weapons and power was important.
As you say, to many Christians physical Resurrection is important.
But, what matters is, to give importance to real things. For instance if Physical Resurrection of Jesus is really happened we should all give very importance to it. If it did not happen, is it wise and fruitful to give importance to it? If the Authors of Bible were talking about spiritual resurrection rather than physical resurrection, then what? How do we know? These are the questions that I think matters, otherwise obviously to everyone something is important, and we are not asking to leave things they think are important. For myself I want to give importance to real things. I want to investigate and know what is Real, and what is imagination or vain hope.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes I understand it’s important to have both love and to question.

The focus wasnt on love. The physical Bahaullah existence is just true and important as the physical fact of jesus resurection.

They are both facts and thus equally important, no?


This has to do with physical existence and importance of needing physical as well as spiritual; I wasnt addressing love.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would say to everyone something is important.
To children, toys and Santa Clause are important.
To Hitler, weapons and power was important.
As you say, to many Christians physical Resurrection is important.
But, what matters is, to give importance to real things. For instance if Physical Resurrection of Jesus is really happened we should all give very importance to it. If it did not happen, is it wise and fruitful to give importance to it? If the Authors of Bible were talking about spiritual resurrection rather than physical resurrection, then what? How do we know? These are the questions that I think matters, otherwise obviously to everyone something is important, and we are not asking to leave things they think are important. For myself I want to give importance to real things. I want to investigate and know what is Real, and what is imagination or vain hope.

The physical resurrection is real in scripture and spiritually. As a result, both christian and bahai believe in real events and people. As such, both believe in love.

Both of you believe in what both of you call facts. I dont discredit either because I dont take sides. My faith doesnt let me take sides on what is sacred and what is not. We look to what works not if something is real just because it literally exist.

Thats how I personally see things. Though, to clarify your statements, it seems you feel christians arent believing in real things. Is that true?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The physical resurrection is real in scripture and spiritually.

This is debatable really. Because, the passages of Bible may be interpreted literally or symbolically.
Most Christians agree that some parts of the Bible is not literal. For example, the story of seeing Moses and Elijah, according to most Christians is symbolic. They believe the disciples had a vision, and the Moses and Elijah were not physically on the Mountain.
This tells us that even according to Christians, not everything written in Bible are physical events.
Sure you can ask them about that.
Thus, as for resurrection, it can be considered that the Authors of Bible did not mean to describe a physical event. It is debatable...
W cannot say Jesus was not physically resurrected and at the same time saying He physically rose.
The Bahai belief states that the Authors of Bible were not describing a physical resurrection, in the same way they did not describe a physical event of appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mountain.
Many of Christians interpretation of Bible is literal with regards to Resurrection and therefor they believe the Authors of Bible meant to describe a physical Resurrection. In this case we cannot say both Bahai and literal Christian interpretations are correct. Only one of them can be true.

As a result, both christian and bahai believe in real events and people. As such, both believe in love.

That sounds nice and friendly.

Both of you believe in what both of you call facts. I dont discredit either because I dont take sides. My faith doesnt let me take sides on what is sacred and what is not. We look to what works not if something is real just because it literally exist.

Fair enough.

Thats how I personally see things. Though, to clarify your statements, it seems you feel christians arent believing in real things. Is that true?

As I said before, the Baha'is do not believe Resurrection of Jesus was physical, thus, a physical resurrection in my view is not real. I am sure you also do not believe Jesus physically rose, do you? You do not even believe in a god, right?

 

[loverofhumanity]

The focus wasnt on love. The physical Bahaullah existence is just true and important as the physical fact of jesus resurection.

They are both facts and thus equally important, no?


This has to do with physical existence and importance of needing physical as well as spiritual; I wasnt addressing love.

Yes. In this world our bodies are connected to our spirit but when we die the body is discarded and the spirit ascends. That is life, science and fact for everyone ever born including Jesus.

Every meeting with Christ after His death can very easily be understood as being in the world of dream or visions which the Bible is full of.

Which parts of the Bible are to be taken literally and which spiritually or metaphorically is confusing to Christians but not to Baha’is. To us it is more than clear because science does not accept myths like walking corpses. Only the superstitious accept such things. But in time they will mature and awaken that it was a superstition which possessed their minds for so long.

Bahaullah’s Spirit Ascended and His Body is in His Shrine in Akka. Jesus’s body has not yet been found to our knowledge but it exists. Only His Spirit Ascended.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So who is the bigger dude, God or the 'Great Beings' !

God has given us the Great Beings. To us a Great Being such as Krishna is all we can know as God, thus they are God to us. Any concept outside the Great Beings and what they have told us, is vain imaginings.

Why such low self-esteem! Would this be conducive to spiritual

To me it it is the Highest of all esteem. I am fully thankful that I am here and allowed to be a servant.

Abdul'baha is the greatest example we have of this thanks.

The 'Primal Point ' part reminds me of the Prajapita Brahmakumaris, where God or Shiva is stated to be a primal point of light.

The Great Beings are the source of Light to Humanity.

There is many Spiritual wonders in 'Primal Point' that bond all the Great Beings. Well worth study. There is so much to study, it is bewildering to contemplate.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Somebody got mixed up. Did the writers of the gospels know that Jesus was dead and hadn't come back to life? Or, did they think, mistakenly, that he had and wrote about it in the gospels?

It is expained by Christ and then Baha'u'llah as to why those given the knowledge of Christ wrote as they did.

Firstly it was the time of Parables, stories with hidden spiritual understandings that enable us to meditate and open more paths of spiritual understandings and then Baha'u'llah has said;

"Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God's holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books."
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 47)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you understand why they are equally important?

Can you have love or know it without bahaullah and the prophets? If its just love, no one needs to be christian and bahai.

It goes beyond love.

There is no lasting Love without the Love given of God, you can not go beyond that Love.

Love is all the Great Beings from God. All Love we can show is from them. This is the wisdom of the quote posted above that the Universe is wrapped up within us. It is their Love that comes from within, the cause of all creation is what we can allow to radiate from us.

We are to use this Love to become one human race.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm.

This is debatable really. Because, the passages of Bible may be interpreted literally or symbolically.

It can, but we're speaking from a Christian point of view rather than Bahai.

Most Christians agree that some parts of the Bible is not literal. For example, the story of seeing Moses and Elijah, according to most Christians is symbolic. They believe the disciples had a vision, and the Moses and Elijah were not physically on the Mountain.

Without jesus actual resurrection, Christianity would be symbolic.

This tells us that even according to Christians, not everything written in Bible are physical events.

Yes. Physical resurrection is not symbolic as other parts may be.

Sure you can ask them about that.

I'm smothered with Christians, both old school and new school. A lot of the non-denomination christians make it more symbolic. It's a protest against the Church's "literalism" of the Eucharist. Old school seem to put more emphasis on Christ resurrection than his death. If you said the resurrection is symbolic, it's saying their salvation is symbolic. It's literally tearing the heart of a Christian's salvation when you say that their scripture says one thing when either denomination or by christian, it says and means something totally different.

It's not about Bahai views.

Thus, as for resurrection, it can be considered that the Authors of Bible did not mean to describe a physical event. It is debatable...

Did not mean?

To me, either I agree with it or I don't. I can't make something different all because I personally don't agree it. Jesus rose in scripture. I disagree that he literally did. It's not about me though. It's about scripture in how christian's interpret it. It's their religion not mine.

Anything is debatable. I don't take sides so either side have their views. Though, Christians don't have a view of other religions in a positive light nor do they change other religions other than how they see Judaism and in some cases Islam.

We cannot say Jesus was not physically resurrected and at the same time saying He physically rose.

Resurrected means rose from the ground. He was brought up from the ground of his tomb. That's why people saw his body and spirit rise and no one is in the tomb. (Christian view not mine)

The Bahai belief states that the Authors of Bible were not describing a physical resurrection, in the same way they did not describe a physical event of appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mountain.

I understand why Bahai believe what they do. It's not christianity any more so than The Buddha being part of your faith and calling it Buddhism and likewise Hinduism. It's not what you believe-that is on you-it's interpreting other people's faiths in the light of your own. It's not just religious. Many people do it especially in conversations thinking one party knows what other is saying and means even without asking for clarification and accepting facts over one's own opinions. (aka Pet Peeve)

Many of Christians interpretation of Bible is literal with regards to Resurrection and therefor they believe the Authors of Bible meant to describe a physical Resurrection. In this case we cannot say both Bahai and literal Christian interpretations are correct. Only one of them can be true.

You'd literally have to experience the resurrection from a literal point of view not just spiritual. I mean, I wouldn't be having this conversation if I haven't experienced it. This would be a foreign language to me as a whole. If I hadn't read the Bible, this would make no sense at all.

As I said before, the Baha'is do not believe Resurrection of Jesus was physical, thus, a physical resurrection in my view is not real. I am sure you also do not believe Jesus physically rose, do you? You do not even believe in a god, right?

We're talking about christians not Bahai.

It is not about me.

That's my point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes. In this world our bodies are connected to our spirit but when we die the body is discarded and the spirit ascends. That is life, science and fact for everyone ever born including Jesus.

How does science confirm anything about the spirit?

Body yes, but spirit?

That, and why do you need science for this? Historians know what day, time, and place The Buddha was born but don't know the dates of Jesus christ. That doesn't make one more important than the other (objectively speaking). It just means that even if they are both facts, that is not the point. People are still Buddhists dispite the lack of facts and science that supports a lot of the reasons for it's beliefs. But, like Christianity, that should not matter.

Every meeting with Christ after His death can very easily be understood as being in the world of dream or visions which the Bible is full of.

Real dreams and visions or symbolic?

Which parts of the Bible are to be taken literally and which spiritually or metaphorically is confusing to Christians but not to Baha’is. To us it is more than clear because science does not accept myths like walking corpses. Only the superstitious accept such things. But in time they will mature and awaken that it was a superstition which possessed their minds for so long.

Does it matter?

Yes. Science doesn't accept spiritual things because they can't be proven. We can't go back in time to say these things happen or not, we can just go by what we know now as "true" or fact. I don't see how science plays a part in this.

Bahaullah’s Spirit Ascended and His Body is in His Shrine in Akka. Jesus’s body has not yet been found to our knowledge but it exists. Only His Spirit Ascended.

Science can't prove that a spirit can ascend yet you believe it is fact and true?

Bahai belief and christian belief are totally different. In most christian churches, literal resurrection is not just in the books. We can read anything anyway we want. It's something you experience with your peers. Bahai is not a christian peer. The experience would be different than people who believe and experience the same thing.

I don't see facts from sacred-books. I see them from experience.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is no lasting Love without the Love given of God, you can not go beyond that Love.

Love is all the Great Beings from God. All Love we can show is from them. This is the wisdom of the quote posted above that the Universe is wrapped up within us. It is their Love that comes from within, the cause of all creation is what we can allow to radiate from us.

We are to use this Love to become one human race.

Regards Tony

I think it was Investigator and I were talking about the physical in relation to the spiritual. The physical is part of that love to just as the spiritual. The hug when you love someone is just as important as the words and feelings I love you.

I used to volunteer at a senior center. Americans tend to bring their grandparents to day care centers when they have severe alzheimer etc, and they can't take of their family member. Every time I came in, I gave people hugs. Sometimes my tone of voice helped and other times it was just the physical hug itself. That means a lot to people. It's a physical means of displaying the "highest truth" of love.

Extend that to god, think of the physical part the hug and the spiritual part the I love you and emotional intention of prayer. It goes hand in hand. You can't have love by just saying I love you in America. You literally have to show how you love this person and even more extensive how you love god.

There is no symbolism in religion here unless you're a unitarianism or have a universal beliefs, then they symbolism a lot so that everyone can be together without being excluded. Outside of that, I've been to a lot of churches that say they don't believe in the literal body and blood of christ yet without whatever communion they use, without it, there is not physical/hug communion of a spiritual belief.

If anything, if it's just spiritually, you don't need to be Bahai. Something about the physical communion, practice, and being with your peers is just as much as a important and real as a person believing in the literal resurrection of christ.

No sides.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think it was Investigator and I were talking about the physical in relation to the spiritual. The physical is part of that love to just as the spiritual. The hug

Sorry busy but I will pull out what jumps out at me.

Yes this is correct in this life, but we will not take that material hug beyond this life, it is the Spiritual Love behind that hug that motivated it. If we are seperated from the material Hug, the Spirit of Love remains and is still hugging, no eternal bond of Love is broken but by our spiritual actions.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry busy but I will pull out what jumps out at me.

Yes this is correct in this life, but we will not take that material hug beyond this life, it is the Spiritual Love behind that hug that motivated it. If we are seperated from the material Hug, the Spirit of Love remains and is still hugging, no eternal bond of Love is broken but by our spiritual actions.

Regards Tony

I gave an example of being at the senior center in the post. Most people like both. It goes together not only in this life but spiritually as well. Not everyone does it. People here appreciate spiritual hugs by action not just intention and prayer.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I gave an example of being at the senior center in the post. Most people like both. It goes together not only in this life but spiritually as well. Not everyone does it. People here appreciate spiritual hugs by action not just intention and prayer.

Great, give them both.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Great, give them both.

Regards Tony

Why do you start conversations you will disagree with?

You're the only one here that does that with me. Others can have conversations among our disagreements.

Whats up with that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I gave an example of being at the senior center in the post. Most people like both. It goes together not only in this life but spiritually as well. Not everyone does it. People here appreciate spiritual hugs by action not just intention and prayer.

A thought is that we have been given two options to offer to another person in life, whichever one we choose will be also our lot in life.

The first option is that the Person will live a live a long and happy life. They will have all the material benefts available at their request. There is no harm if they are given this.

The second option is for Gods Will to be done. With this option there be more than likely, a life full of suffering and hardship, well beyond imagining.

What option would Love choose for the person, thus taking it upon ones own self?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you start conversations you will disagree with?

You're the only one here that does that with me. Others can have conversations among our disagreements.

Whats up with that?

That was not disagreement, it is confirmation of a wonderful thing you do in this world.

Sorry little time and I am off again, work calls.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A thought is that we have been given two options to offer to another person in life, whichever one we choose will be also our lot in life.

The first option is that the Person will live a live a long and happy life. They will have all the material benefts available at their request. There is no harm if they are given this.

The second option is for Gods Will to be done. With this option there be more than likely, a life full of suffering and hardship, well beyond imagining.

What option would Love choose for the person, thus taking it upon ones own self?

Regards Tony

The difference is you equate physical acts of higher love to material benefits. I dont see that connection; so, your example does not relate to what I am saying.

The hug is not a material benefit. Its a spiritual benefit. Christ physical and literal resurrection is not material, its spiritual.

I dont see how you relate material and spiritual benefits just because the latter has a physical component bahai does not have.

Have fun at work.