How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus appeared to teach there was a close association between God and Himself. Statements such as the Father and I are One and He that has seen Me has seen the Father. Jesus also said we need every word of God.

The verses I quoted said that people are going to scripture (written words) as if it were christ. The word before hebrew scriptures was spoken. The Word has always been spoken. By god and then by christ himself. Once you look to scripture to know him you are using it as an idol. Ironically Im using scripture to point out christ was against that. When he went to pray he did not go th scriptures he prayed directly to god. When he told the disciples how to pray he did not say look to hebrew scriptures, he said "this is how you pray..."

The bible, before written, was oral through inspired people. Moses spoke to god directly. John, Mathew, Paul, etc spoke to christ directly.

Once you use the bible "in place of" or "as" god you are using it as an idol.

Its in scriptures but Investigaor says I twist it to my understanding. Some scripture is bery blunt that youd have to be a child without bias to scripture to see it.

That and Catholics talk directly to christ. Somenuse the bible but its always been a personal relationship with christ through lay man or church priest (example) vocation and devotion.

I dont even think jews soley depend on their scripture as god. Most cultures there is a oral component to god-religions since god speaks through the heart.

Can you imagine a child (couldnt read) without a bible and he goes "I wanna be like jesus!" And runs to his mother. True story. Never forget that.

Another true story is a whole family two children, mother, and father went to jesus statue to pray to god. They were all kneeling together to where I only saw their backs. It was beautiful.

Picking up a book is foreign really. Protestants do it but most churches I go to dont use it as commentary but they use it As god himself.

Weird.

 

[Vinayaka]

The fact that most Christians once believed that the physical resurrection was literally true is irrelevant.

In my view, only individuals get to decide what is irrelevant for them. Irrelevant (this particular case) to me and you, sure.

 

[Vinayaka]

Christians were taught to love one another but despite this clear command fell into wars, disputes and sects. The same with other Faiths.

You're making a sweeping generalisation again, (sigh). What happened in history for other faiths is firstly, incredibly diverse and complex, and secondly, conjecture. A simple example is that many wars were over land and power, not faith.

 

[Vinayaka]

Every religion has its time. Like the seasons in nature, there is a time when a tree doesn't produce fruit any longer.

Do you have any idea how insulting this is to all other faiths that are actively alive doing wonderful things on this planet similar to, equal to, and often greater than yours? It is a more complex version of, "My religion is better than yours."

Not produce fruit? In my faith, the fruit is nirvikalpa samadhi, and subsequently moksha, and we're still producing it.

People of all faiths are working on the world's challenges.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The verses I quoted said that people are going to scripture (written words) as if it were christ.

I like that you are starting to consider more deeply the words that Christ spoke as recorded in the gospels.

However you have come up with an interpretation of two verses in the bible that few Christians I know would agree with and would conflict with other scripture say.

The word before hebrew scriptures was spoken.

The Word has always been spoken. By god and then by christ himself.

That I agree with.

Once you look to scripture to know him you are using it as an idol.

So praying to a statue to draw closer to god isn't an idol, but using the bible to draw closer to God is an idol?

Ironically Im using scripture to point out christ was against that.

I agree it is ironic

When he went to pray he did not go th scriptures he prayed directly to god.

That is true. Then again, nobody but the Son has ever seen God according to John, the author of the two verses you place so much weight on.

When he told the disciples how to pray he did not say look to hebrew scriptures, he said "this is how you pray..."

Sure, but He did refer to Hebrew scripture and the author of Matthew referred to Hebrew scripture over sixty times.

The bible, before written, was oral through inspired people. Moses spoke to god directly. John, Mathew, Paul, etc spoke to christ directly.

I agree with most of that. How did Paul speak to Christ directly. Christ had been crucified several years after Paul converted. Paul may have spoken to Christ but it wasn't in the same manner that John and Matthew spoke to Christ.

Once you use the bible "in place of" or "as" god you are using it as an idol.

Who said anything about using the Bible in place of God? It is used as vehicle to draw nearer to God as you would use a plane to travel from one to continent to another. We don't worship planes. We use them to get from one place to another.

Some scripture is bery blunt that youd have to be a child without bias to scripture to see it.

Having a pure heart freed from preconceived ideas may be a better way of looking at it.

That and Catholics talk directly to christ.

That's an assumption and sounds a little like Catholics have this special relationship with Christ that Protestants don't. Is that what you are saying?

Somenuse the bible but its always been a personal relationship with christ through lay man or church priest (example) vocation and devotion.

I agree its always been a personal relationship with Christ. Why is a Priest necessary?

I dont even think jews soley depend on their scripture as god. Most cultures there is a oral component to god-religions since god speaks through the heart.

Jews don't see their scripture as God, anymore than Christians do. While it is true that some have mystical experiences with God such as the OT prophets, Christ and the apostles, none of these devoutly spiritual people encouraged turning away from the message that God revealed whether it be passed on through oral traditions or written down.

Can you imagine a child (couldnt read) without a bible and he goes "I wanna be like jesus!" And runs to his mother. True story. Never forget that.

Another true story is a whole family two children, mother, and father went to jesus statue to pray to god. It was beautiful.

Picking up a book is foreign really. Protestants do it but most churches I go to dont use it as commentary but they use it As god himself.

Weird.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In my view, only individuals get to decide what is irrelevant for them. Irrelevant (this particular case) to me and you, sure.

Sure. The point being made was belief is not fact or truth. It may seem like fact or truth to the one who believes it, but it may not be.

(1) Millions of Christians believe in the physical resurrection.

(2) Millions of Hindus believe in reincarnation.

(3) Millions of Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the manifestation of God for this day.

These are beliefs and highly relevant to each of us personally as you say. How relevant are the numbers believing for establishing the truth of these beliefs? I would argue that the numbers of people who believe something to be true does not provide a valid argument to determine whether something actually is true.

 

[Vinayaka]

These are beliefs and highly relevant to each of us personally as you say. How relevant are the numbers believing for establishing the truth of these beliefs? I would argue that the numbers of people who believe something to be true does not provide a valid argument to determine whether something actually is true.

I agree. My point was about sweeping generalisations in using the term 'irrelevant'. It's usually not like you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I like that you are starting to consider more deeply the words that Christ spoke as recorded in the gospels.

The first time I went to a Catholic Church was near 2000 when my Caholic friend took me. Before, all i heard was scripture this and scripture that. When I helped her and went to Mass and supported her, helping out and being in sync became more important than "lambs among wolves".

In 2012ish I took the sacraments. Ive read he full bible before meeting my friend. I read half of it after confirmation. The whole time Catholic my relationship IN the spirit of christ was never through a book. It was always through the people/body of christ, the communion or sacrifical meal, through repentence or confession, and through prayer and devotion.

Scripture cannot beat the "relationship" I had with christ "then." It doesnt beat how I see him as the body now.

I honestly feel those stuck in scripture arent deeply looking into a physical "and" spiritual relationship with christ. Its like you guys have something missin. Nose stuck in a book. Shrugs.

However you have come up with an interpretation of two verses in the bible that few Christians I know would agree with and would conflict with other scripture say.

Mostly Catholics agree. Protestants (outside lurtigical faith) like sola scripturians, baptists, new age, and non denominational have their own interpretation of scripture.

I have only known Catholics (lurtigical followers) to speak of their relationship through experiences. Everyone else speaks as if their experiences are john and pauls in a written book.

So praying to a statue to draw closer to god isn't an idol, but using the bible to draw closer to God is an idol?

Never said they prayed to a statue. I said "they prayed to god." That is your bias of the church seeping through. Catholism doesnt teach to pray To statues. No catholic I know and myself never prayez To statues. We never had a relationship wih a block of cement. I know you guys dont like catholicism but thats the worst right now I can think of excuse to hate it.

That is true. Then again, nobody but the Son has ever seen God according to John, the author of the two verses you place so much weight on.

You dont take my experiences from the church as authority. The medium of our communication is the bible. Remember. Its not about you or me. Its about US. If i want you to understand me I use what you use as authority. Not my experiences just as I would not see bahaullahs views as authority of christ.

Sure, but He did refer to Hebrew scripture and the author of Matthew referred to Hebrew scripture over sixty times.

Refer.

He prayed TO god directly. The Word of god is oral. It was written for preservation but the jews used it as the only way to know god (them or his disciples). He said they were wrong. Moses wrong gods words down.

If you want to Talk to god and listen to him, drop scripture and do it one to one.

I agree with most of that. How did Paul speak to Christ directly. Christ had been crucified several years after Paul converted. Paul may have spoken to Christ but it wasn't in the same manner that John and Matthew spoke to Christ.

They all spke to him face to face. Thats my point.

Who said anything about using the Bible in place of God? It is used as vehicle to draw nearer to God as you would use a plane to travel from one to continent to another. We don't worship planes. We use them to get from one place to another.

If you can find god without the bible, hen yes. One person on another thread said christ and the bible are inseperable. Unless you are one out of millions of protestants who think otherwise, if the bible is sacred, why would you Not compare it to god?

Having a pure heart freed from preconceived ideas may be a better way of looking at it.

That's an assumption and sounds a little like Catholics have this special relationship with Christ that Protestants don't. Is that what you are saying?

Kind of the same as you saying catholics pray to statues and things like that. I never got the bible-relationship devotion. Above, I said protestants seem to have something missing. Non lurturgical protestants. Episcopalian, prryspeterian, methodist, luthern, to name s few have devotion oriented relationship. JW and baptist have bible oriented. Of course a few in between.

I agree its always been a personal relationship with Christ. Why is a Priest necessary?

Never said he was. Absolvation is from christ. The words the priest says is god forgives. He puts himself in a place where catholics can physically connect with a elder of he church. Its the body of christ. When you sin, you sin against he people. When the priest (god rather) absolves you he is permissing you to be back as part of the body.

Its an elder telling you you are back in the body. God is the source. The priest gives catholics physical confirmation.

No priest is god.

Jews don't see their scripture as God, anymore than Christians do. While it is true that some have mystical experiences with God such as the OT prophets, Christ and the apostles, none of these devoutly spiritual people encouraged turning away from the message that God revealed whether it be passed on through oral traditions or written down.

.

Ive always been about experience first. Oral and written have their place.
Like you guys say the Dhamma decays, the bible already has through its translation.

Go to god.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry. Using my phone so I cant spell check

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not produce fruit? In my faith, the fruit is nirvikalpa samadhi, and subsequently moksha, and we're still producing it.

People of all faiths are working on the world's challenges.

Do you agree with this persons view of that aim?

Nirvikalpa Samadhi State of Absolute Nothingness

"...One who gains Cosmic wisdom does not require to live further bodily ... you want to be with the preceptor forever. All whom you called your family, the house, the material riches have no value for you now ... all bondages broken forever one becomes free from the ram shackles of Life and Death...."

I would offer that this life is from God to enable us to produce fruit. Thus any want or desire for eternal life that does not commit fully to our God given life in this world, is not fruitful.

I watched the video posted in this thread about the 15 year old that was meditating while not eating or drinking. Many amazed at the Spiritual Power of this youth.

What would happen if we all decided this was the aim of spirituality? Human life and interaction would cease, our God given talents not used.

Thus True Faith is not pursuing a goal of eternal life for self. It is giving of self to serving all humanity in deeds, with all our God given talents, to aid all to Love God, which may, if God so grants, produce that result.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

1) Do you agree with this persons view of that aim?

Nirvikalpa Samadhi State of Absolute Nothingness

What would happen if we all decided this was the aim of spirituality? Human life and interaction would cease, our God given talents not used.

I cannot comment on this particular person, as anyone can regurgitate words. There are many 'fakes' out there, and unless I was in the person's presence, or read more about his conduct, I reserve any comment.

You misunderstand the rate of change in Hinduism. According to Hinduism, The goal is moksha, and it happens to all souls. But the rate that this is happening is incredibly slow, probably less that 1000 people on this planet at this time. So it is numerically insignificant to social change.

Evolved souls decide on a personal level when they want to go for moksha. It is the culmination of many many llfetimes of service and good conduct, the reward at the end of the road. The ratio of householder to sannyasin in India is about 500 to one. The 3 other goals (artha, kama, and dharma) keep most souls totally occupied.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I honestly feel those stuck in scripture arent deeply looking into a physical "and" spiritual relationship with christ. Its like you guys have something missin. Nose stuck in a book. Shrugs.

The heart is given to God that God may impart knowledge to ones Soul.

The most interesting thing is that the Most Spiritual Men of all time were mostly uneducated.

Baha'u'llah has said of all Gods Word;

" Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths."

Gods Word contains the Keys of Spiritual Understanding, the book a gift from God that contains the foundations we can use in further understanding.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The heart is given to God that God may impart knowledge to ones Soul.

The most interesting thing is that the Most Spiritual Men of all time were mostly uneducated.

Baha'u'llah has said of all Gods Word;

" Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths."

Gods Word contains the Keys of Spiritual Understanding, the book a gift from God that contains the foundations we can use in further understanding.

Regards Tony

Yes. All Im saying is, you dont Need the book. God is beyond that. He gives you personal understanding. Batteries not included.

 

[CG Didymus]

It's all about humanity not the Baha'is and by a world language is meant an auxilliary language in addition to our native tongue to expedite easier communications between peoples.

Human rights and equality for all is the essence of our beliefs.

Maybe you could show me where in the Baha'i Teachings it says such things as we want to control everything as I don't know of anything like that.

If you have moral codes and other laws, you will be controlling people's behavior. If the Baha'is do become the majority, what will they do with non-Baha'is that drink alcohol, smoke pot, own guns, and watch porn and have extra-marital affairs? Do you plan on leaving them on their own?

How about those that are Baha'is that do those things? Take their voting rights away? Ban them? Throw them in jail? Put them in rehab?

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm not a philosophical person, Carlita. All I know about Buddhism is from going to one or two of their sacred places, meeting monks here and there, and the peace I've felt at such places and from people. My Hindu sampradaya held a weekend retreat at a Buddhist retreat center in California. Thai Buddhists in Hawaii keep a picture of my Guru in the restaurant they run. So this mutual respect thing runs incredibly deep.

I can listen to the Dalai Lama speaking gently, but cringe at Abrahamic screamers telling me stuff I have no clue about.

I've heard the deepest mystic level described by both sides as a void, with the Hindus also calling it the ultimate Cause.

The Bahais are different.

What do you mean "Abrahamic Screamerrrrsss". Sinners have got to get it through their thick skulls. Jesus love them?

 

[oldbadger]

I agree with most of that. How did Paul speak to Christ directly. Christ had been crucified several years after Paul converted. Paul may have spoken to Christ but it wasn't in the same manner that John and Matthew spoke to Christ.

I doubt that the John who wrote G-John was Jochanan BarZebedee the boatman who knew Jesus.
And I doubt that the Matthew who wrote G-Matthew was the sub-tax officer Levi.

G-John was written circa 100-120CE and G-Matthew needed to copy the majority of G-Mark and one other un-named tract, so he clearly didn't have any first hand knowledge about Jesus.

That's just a side comment to the main debate.

 

[oldbadger]

If you have moral codes and other laws, you will be controlling people's behavior. If the Baha'is do become the majority, what will they do with non-Baha'is that drink alcohol, smoke pot, own guns, and watch porn and have extra-marital affairs? Do you plan on leaving them on their own?

How about those that are Baha'is that do those things? Take their voting rights away? Ban them? Throw them in jail? Put them in rehab?

I don't have a list, but in a Bahai World a number of offences would carry the death penalty.
I'm not certain but I seem to remember that some convictions carry a burning sentence?

 

[CG Didymus]

For many centuries most thought the earth was the centre of the universe. Scientific knowledge gained ascendancy, and the prevailing worldview changed completely. The same is happening with the resurrection. Many are preferring science and reason, and turning away from Christian fundamentalism. The fact that most Christians once believed that the physical resurrection was literally true is irrelevant.

Why did "most" Christians believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus? That is the point. Their book, the NT, teaches that. You are trying to make the central Christian doctrine irrelevant. But without it, Christianity becomes irrelevant. But that is essentially what the Baha'i Faith is doing to all other religions... it makes them all irrelevant. One Baha'i said all the old religions are like withered trees. Withered trees that are dead or dying.

I think it is worse than that. If the Baha'i Faith is true, then, again and again I've said, those other religions never had nor taught the real truth. They've had superstitious beliefs, man-made doctrines and falsified things added into their Holy Books. And then, on top of that, you say they misinterpreted the teachings they did have that were correct. Unfortunately, for them, they didn't understand that those things were symbolic. So nothing they believed is based on spiritual truth. All their religious doctrines are based on their wrong beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't have a list, but in a Bahai World a number of offences would carry the death penalty.
I'm not certain but I seem to remember that some convictions carry a burning sentence?

Yes, that was brought up about a thousand posts ago. An arson is supposed to get burned to death. That gives me the feeling that things aren't going to be all rosy in a Baha'i world.

 

[Mister Silver]

I don't have a list, but in a Bahai World a number of offences would carry the death penalty.
I'm not certain but I seem to remember that some convictions carry a burning sentence?

The death penalty is a horrible injustice. I could never follow a belief that decreed the death penalty was the only option available.